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New Math with IE passive at 15% True Damage

Akali is SO HOT··11 votes·4,520 views

Original Thread for the last PBE cycle

Using the same build and 150 AD for live (remember on PBE right now ADCs gets an additional 10 AD from IE so 160 for them) we get the following:

An auto attack that does not crit does 150 damage

An auto attack that crits does: Live: 150 * 2.5 = 375 physical damage PBE: 160 * 2 = 320 damage = 272 physical damage + 48 true damage

A target with 50 armor: An auto attack that does not crit does: 150 * 0.6667 = 100 physical damage

An auto attack that crits does: Live: 375 * 06667 = 250 damage PBE: (272 * 0.6667) + 48 = 229.33 damage On PBE this is an 8.26% reduction in damage for critical strikes

A target with 100 armor: An auto attack that does not crit does: 150 * 0.5 = 75 physical damage

An auto attack that crits does: Live: 375 * 0.5 = 187.5 damage PBE: (272 * 0.5) + 48 = 184 damage On PBE this is a 1.87% reduction in damage

A target with 200 armor: An auto attack that does not crit does: 150 * 0.3333 = 50 physical damage

An auto attack that crits does: Live: 375 * 0.3333 = 125 damage PBE: (272 * 0.333) + 48 = 138.67 damage On PBE this is a 10.93% increase in damage

A target with 300 armor: An auto attack that does not crit does: 150 * 0.25 = 37.5 physical damage

An auto attack that crits does: Live: 375 * 0.25 = 93.75 damage PBE: (272 * 0.25) + 48 = 116 damage On PBE this is a 23.73% increase in damage

Factoring in crit chance, an ADC that attacks 5 times would deal a total damage of:

Target with 50 Armor: Live: 1100 damage PBE: 1146.67 damage On PBE this is a 4.24% increase in damage

Target with 100 Armor: Live: 825 damage PBE: 920 damage On PBE this is an 11.52% increase in damage

Target with 200 Armor: Live: 550 damage PBE: 693.33 damage On PBE this is a 26.1% increase in damage

Target with 300 Armor: Live: 412.5 damage PBE: 589 damage On PBE this is a 40.6% increase in damage

The amount of armor where it breaks even for 1 auto attack is 114 compared to 85 for last cycle. The amount of armor where it breaks even after 5 auto attacks is about 20 armor compared to the previous 15 armor from last cycle. Not to mention that the build is now 900 gold more expensive compared to last cycle which was 700 gold more expensive

17 Comments

Paroe8 votes

... Marksmen need nerfs as a class. You realize in most other mobas crits only do 150% damage right? 200% was already out of the norm, 250% is just absurd.

Akali is SO HOT9 votes

I'm just comparing the values from the previous PBE cycle for people to see and nothing else.

Disembark2 votes

I don’t think your math is correct. The math has been done on a target with 100 armour and the DPS is actually slightly decrease due (244% vs 250%). It actually breaks even at 125 armour for 20% true damage so it’s not gonna be higher for 15% true damage.

I would check your maths. Such as you don’t show how you conjured up the DPS numbers. Did you assume 50% crit vs 60% or 80% vs 100%. If you assume the latter then a 150 vs 160 AD comparison might not be fair as it’s later in the game and it’s probably 190 ad vs 200ad.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

I have no idea where you are getting 244% vs 250% from. Because the auto attack is doing more physical damage than true damage for 15% compared to the previous 20%, that means the breakpoint will be higher because more damage is being mitigated. No idea where you are getting 125 armor from. I linked the original thread for a reason. I didn't care to explain the crit chance again so I linked the original thread for you to read. ADCs on live have 80% crit chance so using 5 auto attacks only 4 will crit and, on PBE, ADCs have 100% crit chance.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Question? Do we factor in that live and pbe cant have the same ad because I.E. has 10 more ad? So even if its the same crit rate and maybe cost more the item is more slot efficient because its providing more ad for the same amount of slots maybe same build? Not to mention that everyone is asking for gold cost nerfs but riot is just gonna use that to buff their items later.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Yes. In my calcs, I did 150 AD for live and 160 AD for PBE

LordGeovanni1 votes

Kk i was confused cause you said same AD

3411235456525 votes

This should be a good wake up call for all the shit posters saying stuff like "CRIT ADCS ARE DEADZ". You can clearly see their dmg is mostly unchanged even buffed in alot of scenarios. The only real nerf is the gold cost increases. The actual promised design goal of lower damage vs squishes in the late game, wasnt really acted upon at all unless you happen to be running around with 50 armor at lvl 18 somehow (impossible).

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

The 900 gold increase is definitely a big hit though. IE also being a bad rush now is also I big nerf. I don't think it would be too bad if the patch shipped with the current changes or at least changes that are similar to this. Would be easier for Riot to tell what needs to be tuned because it doesn't look like there is anything that will be absolutely broken on release.

Bern4 votes

Worth noting that IE has 10 more AD, and ADs get more AD/level than previously (even though they got base AD nerfs), which works out to ADs having more AD after level ~6. This means your comparison isn't mathed correctly.

It's also disingenuous to not calculate damage per gold. You intentionally selected a buildpath that overcaps crit on PBE and doesn't on live, as well, and didn't account for changing arpen to total pen instead in this buildpath, which is good overall even if it synergizes kind of poorly with IE's true damage. It's really goddamn likely that an ADC on 8.11 will just sit on an unupgraded zeal to hit 90% crit, too, instead of completing a second zeal item, or maybe go into arpen since it's more useful than before.

tl;dr: your comparison is flawed and bad

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

I wrote about overcapping crit in the original thread which is why I linked it. There is no possible way to reach 100% crit chance without overcapping the crit. The point is to compare the damage between these two builds pre and post changes and how the damage differs. Currently, ADCs don't build LW until really late in the game if even at all and with their damage being increased against high armor targets after these changes, they most likely will not be building LW until really late if even at all so there is no point in throwing in LW since this is entirely about the 3 item powerspike.

Since you want the +10 AD in there I updated the OP with it.

Bern1 votes

I think you're seriously underestimating how good %pen is, or you weren't around when you got arpen third item guaranteed every game (if not earlier). Literally AD void staff.

35% total arpen and 40 AD for 2800 is better than IE for 3700, especially once you throw abilities into the mix. It's going to be like when IE was 3800, probably: it takes too fucking long to buy, so people will get it really late if at all, or only gun for it if they're behind so they get a huge efficiency spike on their zeal item to compensate (remember when Cait was BT when ahead, IE if behind?). AD will be a game of shoving your buys down the other laner's throat, and IE spikes you waaaaaaaaay too late to do that, so it's gonna be in the trashcan.

Current IE ADs are going to probably just skip IE and build [stormrazor/bork/ER/other AD item]>[single zeal item]>[arpen] or [lethality]>LDR instead unless they literally can't function without IE. Welcome back to BoRK Twitch, etc.

...Anyways, IE is worse guaranteed, but comparing the "same" builds pre and post 8.11 is pointless; even ignoring that IE literally isn't comparable to itself, or a reasonable buy early in the game with its buildpath on 8.11, the item meta is going to be completely different. What really matters is where damage per gold went at different stages of the game on all available builds, if you want to compare power pre and post 8.11 in any meaningful way. (E.G., on Jinx, 8.11 Stormrazor>Hurricane/RFC>LDR is how much damage per gold at various points along its price curve compared to 8.10 IE>RFC>Hurricane? On Jhin, how good is 8.11 Ghostblade>LDR, Stormrazor>RFC, or RFC>Stormrazor compared to current RFC>ER?)

Put another way, you could say you're basically comparing IE>RFC>Shiv to this new buildpath, Really Sharp Edge>RFC>Shiv. IE doesn't even come close to serving the same purpose as Really Sharp Edge, so why are we acting like it does? What useful conclusions can we even draw from comparing the two, other than reinforcing that rushing Really Sharp Edge is garbage---which everyone knew the second they saw the changes? We could be making more useful comparisons instead, like those suggested above. This whole thread misses this horribly.

It feels like the thread pretty much just goes, "whoa, look, ADs are probably worse because new IE sucks! Nice," when you can't draw that conclusion at all from the premises given -- in fact, ADCs are probably going to be stronger because they spike earlier and have more rush options that provide a strong powerspike on their own.

Mordepool3 votes

Then why don't you do the math and make that post. ? I'd love to see it

Critmaster Garen4 votes

fighters get about 150 armor with a couple items and their passives.

that should be the point where it breaks even imo. marksmen are already shredding us without armor pen items. if they reduce it to 10%, it might be fine.

imo they should still replace the true damage with something else.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

IE +10 ad

but LDR -10 ad

thanks for forgetting that

nm10105 votes

The last thread literally starts

If we take the build of item 3031 item 3094 item 3087

LDR wasn't forgotten, it isn't in the test at all.

Daddy Ants1 votes

5 attacks doing 1146 damage total? That sounds fair to me. That's 228.2 per attack.

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