I hope the balance team has learned a valuable lesson from watching worlds 2017

Akali is SO HOT·Oct 22, 2017·250 votes·8,388 views

Leaving things like Janna and Ardent Censor completely untouched and overpowered makes for very boring gameplay. "We can't make big changes because the pros won't have time to adapt" isn't a valid excuse for leaving monstrosities like these in the game. If anything it should be a reason to make bigger changes before worlds. You would expect the best players in the world to be able to adapt to changes quickly and figure out what is best to play. The Janna changes could've easily been pushed through and she could've been hotfixed before world's even started to prevent any problems. If you wanted to you could even do the big changes you want for worlds on the patch before the worlds patch to get rid of things like Janna and Ardent and then bugfix/hotfix accordingly during the next patch to prevent any problems during worlds. I don't understand the decision to leave the meta in such a state for the biggest lol esports event of the year.

Just as an example, in game 5 of the WE vs C9 match the KogMaw had the most bronze V positioning I've ever seen, but got away with it because of Janna and Ardent. If you disabled Ardent and Janna in worlds right now I'm sure everyone would be overjoyed and actually have a good time watching the games than watching whatever joke of a meta this is. If the best players in the world can't adapt to changes quickly, then I don't know what they're doing at worlds tbh.

145 Comments

xJLx MCHammerOct 22, 201751 votes

Seeing 3 champions throw everything at a KogMog and he stands still (due to CC) and comes out full HP once all the attacks are done.

My bigger from with the entire balance direction is that they are trying to define roles and they are doing it on the end of the spectrum. The fact that Sneaky can get 96K damage to champions while the next big damage deal was 40k, and 3rd-5th was in 15l or less. It sounds "okay" but it just means every champion has the same job, peel for the adc or save the adc

You throw all your shield on the ADC, your ADC does all the damage. Champions are being balance around how they can affect the ADC champion rather then how they can affect the game and other roles. Ardent was not designed to help anyone else but the ADC do more damage. Knights Vow was designed to make sure the ADC lives. Sure, it can work on a AP champion but its nowhere as effective.

Then we ask ourselves how can a KOG stand still against 2 ults, multiple AA's, and other abilities. Riot scaled the damage down of tanks, bruisers, and AP champions. They gave ADC too many ways to survive.

So now we are at the crossroad and this worlds has show the design issue.

TwitchInMyPantsOct 22, 201749 votes

7.2 is the buff that made Ardent busted 7.17 is the first nerf since Ardent was made busted 7.18 is the patch worlds is played on 7.19 nerfed Ardent again since its clearly still busted

I mean they had 8 months to deal with Ardent before worlds patch was locked in, sooooooooooo...

ElikainOct 22, 20177 votes

That's a load of BS because Ardent Censer wasn't even on the map when Locket + Redemption was all the fad on the bot lane and no Enchanters could ever compete with Thresh/Blitz/Braum picks. Ardent Censer wasn't out of line for straight 8 months.

BoilTheOilOct 22, 201724 votes

it was its just that nobody knew it was

ElikainOct 22, 20173 votes

It doesn't matter if it was buffed a long time ago. It only matters when it was first started being used and how much time has passed since then. If people didn't know about it and didn't use it, then it was as good as still being a "bad" item.

And that's the thing. If no one was using it, Riot couldn't have possibly shadow nerfed it because they didn't have the relevant usage data. Only their first assumptions that caused them to buff it in the first place. When people started using it, Riot obviously reacted to that, like they do in every patch so far.

Not xPekeOct 22, 201717 votes

it's true what you're saying but Riot has had A LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time to nerf it. You're right it wasn't 8 months but it was more than enough time to do something, and they haven't until 2 patches ago.

Just like with Twitch, and with Cait before him. Cait for example was in a disgusting state for huge amount of time and when the nerf finally hit they actually butchered her and she fell at the lowest winrates of all ADCs lmao. She's doing better now though.

This just goes to show that we can defend Riot all we want, I have nothing against them, but they certainly are way to slow with some objectives changes/nerfs that are needed.

And the OP is right. Why would you want a huge event such as Worlds to be played on such a failed balance?

ElikainOct 23, 20171 votes

Not sure what you want from them. The moment someone says something on the boards or reddit about something being out of line, you're supposed to see it adjusted immediately in the next patch?

If these are your expectations, you're going to be massively disappointed every time because Riot needs data in order to figure out what's wrong and how can they fix it. Sometimes, directly buffing/nerfing something isn't the right call to make but buff/nerf something that's competing for the same spot in order to reach the same level of diversity.

Worlds is being played on 7.18 while our game currently is being played on 7.20. You're barking at the wrong tree here because it's already been half cut down. What you see in Worlds is not how our games are playing out on Live. Ardent is still relevant sure. But the point is not to gut it out of existence.

Dextix LTOct 23, 20172 votes

Not sure what you want from them. The moment someone says something on the boards or reddit about something being out of line, you're supposed to see it adjusted immediately in the next patch?

Not the point he was making. Anyone can see that this was not a good state for the game, yet there were no changes for far more than 1 patch, when 1 patch more often than not is enough to see the strenght of champs and how the meta is operating.

If these are your expectations, you're going to be massively disappointed every time because Riot needs data in order to figure out what's wrong and how can they fix it. Sometimes, directly buffing/nerfing something isn't the right call to make but buff/nerf something that's competing for the same spot in order to reach the same level of diversity.

There are some things that you do not needs half a year of data to understand. Riot had enough time to have the data on ardent and how broken it was. And yes, sometimes direct number buffs/nerfs are not the right call, but they are most often the most sensible and good calls.

Worlds is being played on 7.18 while our game currently is being played on 7.20. You're barking at the wrong tree here because it's already been half cut down. What you see in Worlds is not how our games are playing out on Live. Ardent is still relevant sure. But the point is not to gut it out of existence.

Almost every game, my adc's want to still take an ardent support, almost every game i see an ardent support. The games are still being played out like they were in the previous patches. Ardent is not relevant, it is OVERBEARING, still, to this day.

If the point is not to gut items/champs out of existance and instead balance slowly, why does Riot ignore that many times themselves?

ElikainOct 23, 20172 votes

You do know that Riot balanced Cait a few times before she was "gutted"? That's what it means to slow balance something. And RIot can't balance everything out of line in a single patch, there's clearly a priority list and that also depends if they have the correct data to start iterating on possible changes.

You can't sit at the discussion table and announce that you're going to be nerfing Censer for the next patch and come unprepared to do so.

my adc's want to still take an ardent support

This really isn't a valid argument. Why would you care what your marksman wants you to play? Play whatever you want. That would be the same as you demanding they pick something you'd like to lane with on bot lane. And Fervor Leona is apparently also a thing now and she isn't an Ardent abuser. But that would likely mean you'd have to have a utility jungler to pick it up. Ardent still exists and is relevant but it isn't a necessity for a support to have. Which means you are not forced to pick Enchanters if you don't want to.

Dextix LTOct 23, 20173 votes

Yes, and the fact that she remained a problem for the duration of it before the gutting is the problem.

They simply cant find the sweet spot, they either love tap things and do not fix the problem, or they nerf them to hell. I do not want them to balance out everything in a single patch, but when some things are OBIVIOUSLY out of whack, they should take prority.

Ardent has been a problem for a long time, still is, it should be a priority. Riot should have enough data by now to know that, hell they should have had that data months ago.

Also, my argument is not that my adc's want me to take something. You are either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstaind what i was saying.

Ardent, is still too good when compared to many others, same with enchanters. It is not about demand or being forced to. Even in 7.18 when ardent was broken, you were not forced to play anything. What you are saying is also not an argument. You are never forced to play anything.

But the fact still remains that some options are still better than others. I am not forced to play enchanters, but in many cases they will simply be better than what i take, just because they buy ardent.

THAT is the problem. Ardent is not as broken as it was, but it still is a problem, and it will continue to be a problem until the entire item is changed to be good with not only adc's, but other classes and when the numbers (Or the ability) are changed to have less gold value.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20172 votes

I have no idea why you are saying things like "until Riot changes it" when Ardent has been "gutted" on the PBE for almost an entire week now. I don't understand WHY these posts keep cropping up when the item is going to NEVER be bought next week because it gives a whopping 5% AS and 5 on-hit at level 1 and scales to an even lower value at level 18 compared to live.

Dextix LTOct 24, 20172 votes

Because its PBE, we all know its for bug testing instead of actual changes.

Also, if that is the real value they are going for, then they are gutting the item.

Again, no finding of the sweetspot. If they were going to gut ardent why wait for MONTHS?

Not xPekeOct 23, 20172 votes

Like Dextix LT said, that's not the point I was making.

I never meant that Riot should fix it immediately, but like I said they had more than enough time to fix some CLEAR balance issues for months and months. They did nothing.

And now their biggest tournament of the year (Worlds) is a balance nightmare with obvious things that should have and COULD have been changed way before the tournament. It's also funny how they say they don't want to play on new patches (for ProPlayers) as if these same players don't play the game like everyone else does. They play with the updated patches for hours and hours every single day of their life. Nerfing Ardent or twitch, trist (random examples), etc, before Worlds would not have been the big issue Riot says it is. If it then so happened to screw up the meta, then the team that adapts the best will end up winning. And that's fair as adaptation and theory skill level is just as important as in game mechanics. So that would actually be something we could praise team about instead of babying pro player saying they can't play on live patches..

I never denied that Riot reacts after noticing players use a certain item too much, or a champion. The issue here is that they had MONTHS to do something and they did absolutely nothing until now. And Worlds is being played on a hilariously broken state of the game. Which is dissapointed given how important Worlds should be.

PaffWasTakenOct 22, 201721 votes

The balance team shouldn't even care about the pro plays to start with. Making the game hideously unplayable, frustrating and boring for the common player should be something that they should be ashamed of, but instead they just ignore the hundreds and hundreds of threads on the boards made by people who want some solid changes to the game to get it out of the thrash can that its in today. For me, Riot's balance team is definitely the worst of its kind in the whole gaming industry. They should definitely wake up

DragonSheaOct 22, 20176 votes

{quoted}

The balance team shouldn't even care about the pro plays to start with. Making the game hideously unplayable, frustrating and boring for the common player should be something that they should be ashamed of, but instead they just ignore the hundreds and hundreds of threads on the boards made by people who want some solid changes to the game to get it out of the thrash can that its in today. For me, Riot's balance team is definitely the worst of its kind in the whole gaming industry. They should definitely wake up

What they have done is ignore the basic's and the fundamentals in favor of appeasing the pro-players. Guess what? It fucked them over as well. Every player are a used to be a and sometimes are the common player because we all started out like that. When the game was balanced for normal players regardless of ELO, it was fine, no shit was happening and it benefited pro players as well. But then the opposite shit happens and it's ruining the game. Riot have no excuse, they fucked up this season.

Ben SharpioOct 22, 201719 votes

besides the fact that c9 drafted like retards i agree with this, but hoping that riot's balance team "learned" something from this is a bit too much

Death by GlamourOct 23, 201718 votes

The adc update ruined the entirety of last season...

Do you actually think they will learn anything from this, I dont.

ElikainOct 23, 20171 votes

Oh yeah... Marksmen being relevant is clearly bad for the game. /s

Death by GlamourOct 23, 20175 votes

They have been relevant since the creation of the 1 top 1 mid support and carry in bot and 1 in the jungle meta.

ElikainOct 23, 20171 votes

So were supports and mages. Mid laners change sometimes but almost all the time are ranged AP champions. Bot lane doesn't work without a support, that being a tank, AP champion or an Enchanter. Junglers are by far the most diverse bunch of champions because there's actual variety there (in my opinion) and top laners are what's currently in the meta, although they are 2nd according to diversity.

Your point being is that Riot should change the meta so that Marksmen never have a place in this game?

Dextix LTOct 24, 20173 votes

Your point being is that Riot should change the meta so that Marksmen never have a place in this game?

Not what he was saying. You really like strawmen, don't you?

So were supports and mages. Mid laners change sometimes but almost all the time are ranged AP champions. Bot lane doesn't work without a support, that being a tank, AP champion or an Enchanter. Junglers are by far the most diverse bunch of champions because there's actual variety there (in my opinion) and top laners are what's currently in the meta, although they are 2nd according to diversity.

All of the roles/lanes you mentioned has diversity.

On mid you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/Bruiser/Skirmisher/Juggernaut.

On top you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/Bruiser/Skirmisher/Juggernaut.

In the jungle you can take adc/mage/assasin/tank/bruiser/skirmisher/juggernaut.

In the support role you can take adc/enchanter/tank/mage.

In the bottom damage dealer role, you can only take adc. ONLY 1 class from the entire game. Not even skirmishers like Yasuo, who were DESIGNED with bot lane in mind, cant compete with adc's. The only other real example is mordekaiser, who was only viable because of a broken brute force exp passive. The only mage that really was taken bot (And even then it was so short) was ziggz, and not because he was strong, but because of his fast turret taking and cheese with getting the first tower gold.

Do you not see the problem? In DOTA/SMITE?HotS, i can take a mage/skirmisher/juggernaut/adc/assasin easily and LANE with a ranged opponent. In LOL that is nearly impposible. This show that the adc role in LOL is out of whack, it needs changing, because in its position, it is not allowing any other role to be in, because of how strong and MANDATORY it is.

ElikainOct 24, 20172 votes

DOTA has turn speed, which punishes ranged champions for making incorrect moves against melee opponents. Melees in turn then have time to react and do something before you get hit from range. Also, their balance is completely bonkers which means that any champion is strong enough to delete the other guy. And they have a lot of "protection from arrows" items. Even starting with the first item you buy at the beginning of the game.

HotS works completely differently. Since there are no items and any other stats besides your own hero and their kit + talents, most of melees there have gap closers, evades, shields and the like which allows Blizzard to specifically put something in the hero's kit to have an appropriate response to their weakness and buff their strength, if you pick those talents up.

In LoL, you can't do this wholeheartedly because you have to account for various other stats you're buying. I'm not denying that "melee VS range" problem doesn't exist, but it's nowhere near the extent people claim it is. Vayne can bully that Malphite all she wants but Doran's Shield, Ninja Tabi's and a Bramble Vest beg to differ against AA champions. Even if you found a way to fix "R VS M" right now, the game would still then be imbalanced due to not being made with that in mind. Ranged champions would then heavily be shat on because there are a lot of items and even melee champs themselves that would be out of line. This problem, to me, sounds like one of the pre-seasonal updates and certainly won't be fixed in a patch or two.

The meta we all play in came way back in S1. EU's strategy was 1 top, 2 bot, 1 mid and 1 jungler which seemed to obliterate any other strategy there was at the time. So everyone simply adopted it and Riot didn't want to be the ones to dictate what was going to be played where.

They balanced the game according to the most accepted way of playing it. If you want to see a change, don't demand it. Be the change you want the community to see. If you find success with it, i see no reason why everyone else wouldn't adapt to play the game your way, if it's viable.

SchattenbornOct 22, 201714 votes

Heya, just wanted to chime in. I can understand your reasoning, and why you're upset by the meta right now, but having huge changes one, or two patches before worlds won't fix this problem. You may ask yourself: "Why wouldn't this fix the problem, the pros are paid to adapt towards changes?", and you're partially right. The thing is, we've had this once already in 2015, the infamous "Juggernaut-Patch" 5.16. Worlds was played on 5.18 back then, so enough time to balance everything out, right?, wrong. The worlds 2015 were a total mess, some might even call it a meme, due to the juggernauts being too opressive, and no time for neither the pros, nor the balance team to sort everything out.

So yes, I can understand that you call for huge changes/meta shifts before worlds, but it's not favourable, we've had that problem already.

BALDG1VEN BOOMEROct 22, 201753 votes

No, the lack of future planning is what made that worlds a disaster.

Juggernaut update came out 5.16 and they only had two cycles to make changes, not enough time.

AirKingNeoOct 22, 201787 votes

We complained about this shit long before worlds. Incompetence isn't an excuse either.

If they can't do their job, hire someone who can.

Akali is SO HOTOct 22, 201734 votes

That was a big class update not an update for worlds. The problem with that was the fact that it was such a big update that happened so close to worlds which didn't allow for enough time to properly balance them out before worlds started. You can't really compare nerfing Ardent and Janna to a huge class update.

EnloctOct 22, 20172 votes

But they know when worlds is going to happen. They can just schedule the big updates at a time when they will have time to fix the game before worlds. It is still rank incompetence and no excuse.

MkShenGreatAgainOct 23, 201719 votes

Actually how cool would that be though? A week before world's they do a new gameplay reveal in the style that Iron Chef used to show off the secret ingredient

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

MagearnaOct 23, 20179 votes

This would honestly be so cool though. This way, no teams will have prior knowledge of what's now good and what should be thrown out the window. This would truly show us which teams are the best, which teams can adapt the fastest, and would make for a very interesting (and tasty) worlds

SalsonOct 22, 201710 votes

The Juggernaut Patch was only a problem for SoloQ.

For the Worlds it was an awesome patch. I remember seeing Darius, Gangplank , Fiora, Morde and Riven in competitive play.

DragonSheaOct 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The Juggernaut Patch was only a problem for SoloQ.

For the Worlds it was an awesome patch. I remember seeing Darius, Gangplank , Fiora, Morde and Riven in competitive play.

Well Juggs have always been hard for low level players to deal with. When the jugg patch came out I'd understand why they got used in competitive play.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20174 votes

Really? You mean those 4 games out of 60+ that GP made it past ban phase and hard carried throughout the entire event?

SalsonOct 23, 20173 votes

Exactly those. It was far more interesting than boring tank-vs-tank matchups.

It was great seeing good champions compared to this years 'Protect the Right-Clicker' comps. If they wanted to make a decent bot lane meta, they could have at least let us watch Draven and Thresh vs Jhin and Bard.

DragonSheaOct 22, 201714 votes

In other words, Riot is full of shit. They said They didin't want to mess with things before worlds and yet they are blatant hypocrites, If or when pro players give shit to riot for this bullshit and Riot don't change nothin'.

There will be blood.

ElikainOct 22, 20175 votes

And Riot didn't change anything in a major way. They've had a few light patches before Worlds, specifically to balance out outliers and not have any major changes shaking up the meta before Worlds stated. Not a single day was a patch skipped, no matter how light on the changes it was.

ThilmerOct 22, 201711 votes

I think the problem is Riots attitude:

-Oh, people are complaying a lot about ardent censer in the fórums, but since 80% of the people is Brronze there we should ignore it, because the proplayers have a different meta.

Then Worlds start and Riot sees the proplayers abusing ardent censer because is broken as hell from Bronze V to Challenger.

NCBucketsOct 22, 20178 votes

the lesson they need to learn is that if everyone is saying something, they should probably listen to it. all i see on these boards are people complaining (rightfully so) about ADC. maybe they should take a hint. Why make these boards if they wont look at them?

I QOct 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

the lesson they need to learn is that if everyone is saying something, they should probably listen to it. all I see on these boards are people complaining (rightfully so) about ADC. maybe they should take a hint. Why make these boards if they won't look at them?

Well, before when ADCs were in a decent spot, people all cried for buffs. They listened to them then, and that's why ADCs are really good now.

BlåbæretOct 23, 20175 votes

It's not so much that they listened to them, it's more that they nerfed everyone but ADCs. Y'all remember the garbage players crying for Syndra and Orianna nerfs even when ADCs were overbearing back then.

The Cane MasterOct 22, 20178 votes

You didn't mention Sejuani Gragas Galio Kalista 100% pick/ban rate.

xJLx MCHammerOct 22, 201718 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KoyYj4gn,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-10-22T22:34:22.286+0000)

You didn't mention 100% pick/ban rate.

3 of those champions excel because they either ensure the ADC is safe from dives or can dive.

SasogwaOct 22, 20177 votes

That feel when the best series to watch is the one where there is no ardent censer supports (SKT vs MSF)

Romans VI XXIIIOct 23, 20175 votes

I hate the "won't have time to adapt" excuse.

If they can't adapt from 1 item change then they aren't professionals and don't deserve to be there.

That's like canceling a football game cause there is to much wind/rain.

Adapting to the situation is the CORE of winning games in any competition. If you can't adapt you will lose, it's the basics of competition.

50ShadesOfÀDCOct 23, 20172 votes

Or switching grass right before match.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20173 votes

Right they should push big changes right before World's so they have to adapt. So what they did in 2015 is EXACTLY what you want? Where they pushed 4 big reworks causing 2 champions to be near OR 100% pick/ban (Morde/GP) and only 1 REAL top lane match up of Darius VS Gnar since Darius was also extraordinarily overtuned but Gnar hard countered him, but hey at least the pros had to adapt to the reworks to realize how ridiculously overtuned the champions were amirite? Everyone says every meta was the worst yet you all still come back every meta swap and complain about each of them. Janna and Ardent shouldn't have been as overtuned as they were for the 15 patches leading up to worlds not necessarily on the worlds patch.

Akali is SO HOTOct 23, 20173 votes

No that's not what I want. When I say big changes I mean changes like nerfing Janna and Ardent Censor that can shake up the meta. That's completely different from putting 2 completely game warping champions into the game that take multiple patches to balance. Those aren't comparable.

KloqdqOct 23, 20173 votes

So I want to add some thoughts to this and comment on it because I believe there is some misunderstanding in this whole mess.

First, stuff like Ardent and Janna should have been fixed before Worlds. I completely agree. The issue is not that they didn't change this during the Worlds patch, it's that they didn't change it prior. These problems we are now seeing at Worlds was a big issue with the game prior to the World patches even coming out. The problem was that we let them linger for far to long and the World patches really highlight the problem in full force. Riot fucked up and didn't act more aggressively towards the problems before they headed into Worlds. That is the issue here.

Second, the play you are talking about had more factors than just Janna. I saw the same clip. You cannot overblow that play and say "LOL Janna+Ardent no counter play." No. Galio used his ultimate and Janna had to blow shield and Ultimate to keep Kog alive and the damage done by C9 wasn't that impressive to begin with. There was a ton of things at play and this wasn't just caused by Janna and Ardent.

If you want a better example of how powerful those things were, just look at the current Worlds meta where everyone is using Relic shield to rush to Ardent. That is a good example of an item having too much priority.

Finally, the issue about Pros being able to adapt. Now league is an ever changing game and players are told to adapt to changes rather rapidly. The main reason Pros aren't asked to do this is because it gives teams and players the time to focus on the current meta a lot easier while developing ways to break it and what they can do. Sometimes that results in various counters or different picks that we could never see. The Noc pick. The Morde. All of Misfits supports. A ton of these picks would not likely be used because teams would default to the safe and reliable. Pros aren't playing on PBE or anything, they are on live so the bigger the changes, the more likely players would need to adjust rapidly.

Take Azir for example. If Azir was put up during the Worlds patch, he would be so strong that likely every time would need to pick or ban him. Anyone that has played Azir would be a lot strong while others who aren't as capable would start falling flat.

Many teams that practiced with Ardent would than need to rapidly change their bot lane set-up to what is the best and most powerful. The game than isn't decided by skill but which team can adapt the fastest. Now that isn't to say that doesn't have some kind of skill involved but it would be chaos with clear wins by teams that can quickly understand the new meta. Now that isn't to say that is bad, it really isn't because there is already some of that in the worlds meta. But it means a team that practiced, practiced, practiced with a certain comp, game plan, could have that completely thrown out the window and lost because what is now OP isn't what they practiced. Because what is now OP wasn't what they played to counter.

Now is it perfect? No, I don't believe it is. However, doing something that gives Pros the time and practice they need so they can adapt to the current meta and figure out ways to break it and give other teams a run for their money, that is good. No other sport, e-sport, game, whatever really ever makes massive changes around their worlds meta because of the same philosophy I just talked about above. By keeping everything in the same place for a month prior to their worlds, it gives everyone an equal chance to learn that meta and keep their skill as the most important aspect of the game. Not who can adapt the quickest.

Ardent and Janna and a couple of other factors were a big issue this worlds but they were issues prior to the worlds patch. We should not punish players because of Riot's fuck up. Instead, blame Riot for acting slowly. Hold Riot to their inability to act quickly. That is what we should be talking about. Not that these problems are at worlds. That these problems were even allowed to get near the worlds patches in the first place.