Can we get another progress report on Gangplank?

Darkomantis·Sep 20, 2014·7 votes·7,749 views

Gangplank was detailed for a rework early this year by Riot Gmang and we have seen no buffs or even QoL changes ever since. The pirate was suppose to see changes after the Heimer rework but he keeps ignored and ignored. Yes, Meddler, a few weeks ago said that the pirate's new ultimate would be ready to launch onto PBE but nothing has been put on there. Does Riot want to forget Gangplank? Even the community doesn't even care about Gangplank anymore...

Should I expect another post about Gangplank still being in early stages in 2016?

22 Comments

RiotMeddlerSep 21, 201417 votes

The ult changes I mentioned previously (making it a more consistent effect) have tested well. Next step is to get some visual effects changes done (still going for a cannon barrage, we'd like to adjust it a bit to better match the new, more reliable functionality though). Once those visual effects are good to go we'll throw the changes onto the PBE.

NVDaxSep 21, 20145 votes

The ult changes I mentioned previously (making it a more consistent effect) have tested well. Next step is to get some visual effects changes done (still going for a cannon barrage, we'd like to adjust it a bit to better match the new, more reliable functionality though). Once those visual effects are good to go we'll throw the changes onto the PBE.

Meddler, I said it before and I'll say it again I love you. This is good news, very good news. Short of the actual rework itself,

DarkomantisSep 21, 20142 votes

Thank you for the response Meddler! It's nice to have a more solid idea as to when the buff will be coming along.

Could I ask when Gangplank players will know at what time in the year can they expect to see the pirate's changed kit? It would be cool if you got Gmang here for feedback. I think it serves players well when we get to know what worked and didn't work with reworking a champion's kit. I feel employees are responsible for helping flourish new game designers through information and the methods they receive.

Remlap1223Sep 22, 20141 votes

What about his other abilities? What is staying and what is going (plz don't say CC removal, I'll cry.)

VenowolfSep 25, 20141 votes

I wanna see a new dmg ability with hard cc in his kit. Actually the kit of GP confuses me.

Most things that I like:

Plundering mad bank :) Q burst satisfaction specially the crits Eating orange and say "bye" to the cc, being cool Role versatility he can doing traditionally non-fighter things Global cannonballs from the sky High move speed (this is my fav) On-hits Q (e.g. Shiv) Being a badass pirate I really loce the pirates.

Things that I don't like:

Raise Morale is definitely underwhelming (thematically and mechanically) Frustrating unreliability on ultimate (RNG) Trouble functioning after lane (having to build tanky to function so a Role confusion) Passive can be unsatisfying/awkward to use Not much decision-making during combat Laning phase can be drawn-out farm fest Only one damage ability apart the ult. No hard CC in his kit. (This is the most sadly :()

VenowolfMay 2, 20151 votes

Something new on Gangplank?

ShadowParkerSep 20, 20142 votes

Compared to Sion or Urgot(and many more champions), Gangplank is a god.

SnowFallSep 21, 20142 votes

stop asking reworks for fine champions

Lord Graves IIISep 22, 20142 votes

EDIT: Sorry for attempting Hijack. I just have thought about this quite abit but never really got feedback from other GP fans.

Ok, I usually catch hate for my crazy gangplank ideas, but oh well here goes, I'd like some GP fans and a red's opinion on why this is a good or terrible idea.

GP Changes I thought of that might be ok sorta...

Gangplank Q now works on a similar targeting system to Caitlyn Ultimate. This is to say, it is targeted, but if the enemy can place an allied champ or a minion between themself and gangplank (or break line of sight) before the cast animation finishes, then whatever is in the way will get shot instead. This will create claustrophobic lanes for GP that could feel like fighting on a ship deck. The enemy is safe as long as there is a minion between them and gangplank but the second they slip up he can slip a shot through to them. It also creates a dynamic where they cannot leave freely without getting shot. They need to wait for their minion wave to negotiate a chance to escape. They need to Parley a chance to get away or suffer the free Q. This would minimize his ability to win lane on the back of him mana pool like pantheon can and could create a really neat gameplay pattern for him and his opponent. It also frees up power to put into his other spells and base stats, but might even justify a range increase on Q. :D
Raise moral grants a sheen-esque on next hit effect to allies instead of the AD aura. I love the idea of Gangplank giving damage to allies. It plays up the Pirate Captain leader fantasy, but it needs to be something that is more visceral and noticeable. As it is on live, GP E at rank 5 gives him a level 2 Vayne Ult's worth of damage and a level 2 Taric ult to all nearby allies I'm a little more on the fence about this one, but I love the gameplay of GP speeding up his team and charging into the enemy lines with his crew. I just feel the effect he gives allies needs to be more noticeable. I'd buff the MS given to allies as well likely.

Remlap1223Sep 22, 20141 votes

Gangplank main here, this is kinda the direction I want Gangplank to go in. Something that emphasizes more of a duelist aspect with teamfight potential rather than Q to make enemies QQ and abusing AP and CDR. Since Gangplank has no inherent attack speed steroid (and the poorest attack speed scaling of all the duelists), I wanted to make him more reliant on crits than flailing his arms wildly. It would also not harm Tankplank and Supplank as good off builds for him, since that's one of Gangplank's major selling points to me is his build flexibility.

Lord Graves IIISep 22, 20141 votes

Its not posting in your thread for some reason. :(

I'm not sure how the kit you proposed solves the problems that got GP nerfed in the first place.

An attack speed slow is brutal. Too brutal to put on a passive like that. Nobody is gonna be able to handle that gangplank. He can stand outside rivens attack range. And since when is Garen top a real problem? You cited Garen and Jax then called riven and olaf bad tops. I think you are only looking within your own experience.

What do you see as the problems with Gangplank's current kit? Why can't his current one just get buffed? These are the questions any rework must respond to. Not just "Why is GP weak."

Remlap1223Sep 22, 20141 votes

The numbers aren't concrete. The attack speed slow is so that he can keep up with other duelists since he lacks an attack speed steroid in his kit. Burst AD casters such as Pantheon and Yasuo aren't going to feel the pain as much as Jax and Teemo . Like I mentioned, one of the problems in GP's kit is a lack of an attack speed steroid. The reason why his current kit can't simply be buffed is:

His passive, E, and ultimate are outdated and garbage, yet his Q and W are so ripe for abuse that if they simply buff him, GP's going to crit parrrley someone for 1600 damage (not an exaggeration, I did that last time I played GP top.)
His current kit isn't viable outside of bot lane support. And he sure as hell isn't meant to be that.

I know what got GP nerfed. A lot of things got GP nerfed: his safe early game stockpiled with intense global pressure and snowball potential, even if GP was losing his lane hard, he could farm under turrent safely and get lots of gold, or get plenty of harass in on a champion (which is why Pantheon was so goddamn effective against GP.)

My kit would foce GP to get into longer engagements for his power to start picking up (like duelists are meant to). Now you can't just Q to make enemies QQ, his W is going to have a super long cooldown unless you get into prolonged engagements, and his ultimate requires a lot more skill (since you aren't just carpet bombing an area instantly.) The main problem with GP was that he was too safe. Now he has to choose between being safe and doing damage. He can't have his cake and eat it too.

Lord Graves IIISep 23, 20141 votes

EDIT: OH. It won't let me post in your thread because it would be a necro. >_< A few things.

Slowing down the enemy's attack speed in lieu of raising your own is an ugly design. You crush their ability to fight purely because you didn't wanna give GP a steroid. Rather than giving GP a thing that makes him stronger you gave a mechanic that weakens the enemy in a massive but difficult to mitigate way. Its not overpowered, but it is unnecessarily brutal to whoever has to face him. An attack speed slow is not going to work. Rather than empowering GP it is just oppressive to his adversary resulting in neither side getting more fun from the mechanic. It is powerful but inelegant. Does that make sense?
I know you aren't exaggerating about Parrley crit, but it is still a point and click targeted nuke gated by mana. Worse, you made it an execute further increasing his ability to just crush a lane through pure mana pool power, one of the reasons he was nerfed. (the same pattern that makes Pantheon such an abrasive toxic champ .) GP shoots you until he is out of mana. If you died before he ran out then you lose lane. If he ran out and you live then he loses lane. This no interaction binary is what needs fixed with any parrley changes. This is why I liked the ones I proposed. It gives Parrrley outplay potential and frees up strength to be devided elsewhere into the kit, without having to remove his kickass Parrrley crits.

His passive, E, and ultimate are outdated and garbage

Gangplank's E is actually a really strong aura spell. It gives a ton of free movespeed to allies, two longswords to his teammates and almost a BFsword to gangplank himself. Thats almost 4000 gold worth of attack damage on the active. Not to mention the passive or the movespeed. The move is objectively strong. Why does it feel weak or satisfying is the problem that needs fixed. Also, all your proposed E change really did was turn the AD steroid into a crit steroid and make it so GP gets a guaranteed crit. I cannot approve of him giving 20% crit strike to his teammates. It would require Gangplank to be balanced around the premise that he is giving the friendly marksman 20% crit, which is massive on an ADC. Also, imagine if Zed or Kha or Talon could freely fit crit into their kits? Meanwhile it means the aura does little to nothing for mages supports or tanks. Giving out free Crit is just too inconsistent. Its either really really really strong or is going to do absolutely nothing for his team. But he is forced to be balanced around the best case!

In all, it feels like the kit you proposed simply added power to Gangplank without really adding opponent interaction or tradeoffs. Yeah his Oranges have a 30 second cooldown, but it was already 22 seconds without the cooldown lowering mechanic you suggest. (I actually kinda like that mechanic though. Its pretty neat.)

Remlap1223Sep 23, 20142 votes

Slowing down the enemy's attack speed in lieu of raising your own is an ugly design. You crush their ability to fight purely because you didn't wanna give GP a steroid. Rather than giving GP a thing that makes him stronger you gave a mechanic that weakens the enemy in a massive but difficult to mitigate way. Its not overpowered, but it is unnecessarily brutal to whoever has to face him. An attack speed slow is not going to work. Rather than empowering GP it is just oppressive to his adversary resulting in neither side getting more fun from the mechanic. It is powerful but inelegant. Does that make sense?

Fair enough. It was an idea to keep him thematically more duelist than burst AD caster, allowing him to counter more machine gun arms duelists like Jax, but allowing assassins and burst casters some better leeway. I thought it had some potential, but if you feel it's toxic, I'll consider revising it for future tuning.

I know you aren't exaggerating about Parrley crit, but it is still a point and click targeted nuke gated by mana. Worse, you made it an execute further increasing his ability to just crush a lane through pure mana pool power, one of the reasons he was nerfed. (the same pattern that makes Pantheon such an abrasive toxic champ .) GP shoots you until he is out of mana. If you died before he ran out then you lose lane. If he ran out and you live then he loses lane. This no interaction binary is what needs fixed with any parrley changes. This is why I liked the ones I proposed. It gives Parrrley outplay potential and frees up strength to be devided elsewhere into the kit, without having to remove his kickass Parrrley crits.

I know it's a point and click nuke gated by mana, and that's exactly what I'm trying to steer it away from. I don't want Gangplank to turn into Pantheon 1.5 like Lucian was turned into Sivir 2.5. The problem is that his Q is inherently unhealthy gameplay wise as a result, and quite frankly, I don't think giving it a Caitlyn esque body block gate is going to fix that. You are seriously underestimating the range gap between Ace in the Hole and Parrrley. GP's Q has a range of 625 (Almost a Caitlyn basic attack, which is one of the reasons why GP support works so well.) Ace in the Hole fluctuates between 2000-3000 range. It's really hard to block something moving as fast as a basic attack, unless it's really far away. Instead by gutting it's nuke harass power and using it more as a farm tool and flashy duel ending execute, it creates a much more healthy lane. Playing GP like Teemo isn't going to get you much anywhere anymore, it's just going to waste mana and waveclear potential. But If GP uses it as an initiator, using the movement speed slow from Grog-Soaked Blade to clear the gap, and starting to wail on them, like what GP was SUPPOSED to do, you're going to get a very good trade. It sounds nasty, but it's a lot less inherently toxic than what Quinn and Teemo are doing top lane.

Gangplank's E is actually a really strong aura spell. It gives a ton of free movespeed to allies, two longswords to his teammates and almost a BFsword to gangplank himself. Thats almost 4000 gold worth of attack damage on the active. Not to mention the passive or the movespeed. The move is objectively strong. Why does it feel weak or satisfying is the problem that needs fixed. Also, all your proposed E change really did was turn the AD steroid into a crit steroid and make it so GP gets a guaranteed crit. I cannot approve of him giving 20% crit strike to his teammates. It would require Gangplank to be balanced around the premise that he is giving the friendly marksman 20% crit, which is massive on an ADC. Also, imagine if Zed or Kha or Talon could freely fit crit into their kits? Meanwhile it means the aura does little to nothing for mages supports or tanks. Giving out free Crit is just too inconsistent. Its either really really really strong or is going to do absolutely nothing for his team. But he is forced to be balanced around the best case!

OOR, pt 2 incoming.

Remlap1223Sep 23, 20142 votes

In response to the crits, GP criting is kinda what gives him his power, since he doesn't have a natural attack speed steroid. It's no different from Yasuo, or Tryndamere, or honestly Jax's ultimate for that matter. However, that's besides the point, the point you were trying to make is that his E is powerful, but feels lousy, and honestly, I don't think his E has much of a place in his kit the way it stands. It's like what you called my Grog-Soaked Blade changes: powerful, but inelegant. If Gmag scraps GP's E, I'm not going to be Rioting at Riot HQ, is what I'm saying. I had an idea of turning his E into a Quinn vision granter and Elise rappel combo with a knockback (like he was rappelling to the Crow's Nest, and dropkicking his opponents on the way down), but I felt that was really bloated. I'd like something like that to keep his piratey theme going, and something about that theme should go to his E instead of him shouting "PREPARE TO BE BOARDED!", firing his pistol up in the air, and turning pain train on for his entire team. TL;DR, he just needs a better E, and I don't care enough about it to feel strongly any direction they go.

his Oranges have a 30 second cooldown, but it was already 22 seconds without the cooldown lowering mechanic you suggest. (I actually kinda like that mechanic though. Its pretty neat.)

One of the inherently toxic problems you'll find out about GP if you play him like I do (the right way since I mentioned I kinda mained him) is that his W's cooldown is how should we say, negligible. If you actually wait and use his W only when he's immobilized, or under some really heavy slow or blind, you'd never get caught. The enemy team would blow all their crowd control on GP, he'd eat oranges and be k, and he'd laugh all the way back to base (a personal favorite thing for me to do would be to quote Captain Jack Sparrow in all chat after I successfully disengaged their entire team 1v5). When I finish any of my 4 Gangplank builds, he always ends up with 20% CDR. On an 18 second base cooldown, that's what I'd like to call "I'm never going to have to worry about crowd control ever again." Hence why I took out the passive CDR from leveling, and instead gave the passive some oomph via extended trades. If GP actually duels people and doesn't just sit behind his team Qing to QQ all day, his Oranges are going to be much more useful. Also, the CDR will pack more of a punch simultaneously. This change is a nerf, yes, but it's something I REALLY hope Riot implements.

In all, it feels like the kit you proposed simply added power to Gangplank without really adding opponent interaction or tradeoffs.

It's not going to solve all of GP's gameplay problems, I'll let the balance team figure that out, but at its core, it's a damn good place to start. It's going to take a champion that was considered so toxic to the game environment that Olafing was the only solution, into a champion that is flexible; yet isn't overly safe. Great in teamfights; yet not with a Garen skill ceiling. A bully laner with great dueling potential; yet gated by skill and core gameplay mechanics rather than mana.

Lord Graves IIISep 23, 20141 votes

In response to the crits, GP criting is kinda what gives him his power, since he doesn't have a natural attack speed steroid. It's no different from Yasuo, or Tryndamere, or honestly Jax's ultimate for that matter.

It is different because Trynd, Yasuo, and Jax don't give Crit to their teammates. They hoard it all for themselves. His E already gives Attack Damage. The other stat that gives Gangplank power, everyone including malzahar uses attack damage. Some use it more than others. I feel giving out free crit to allies is far more dangerous design wise. Hmm. I actually am attached to his E in a particular way. It being a team buff is kinda important. Gangplank isn't just any pirate. Hes a pirate captain. A pirate king. And it is it is a glorious thing to be a pirate king. He is a leader of men. Some sort of leadership move is kinda good to have in my opinion.

You are seriously underestimating the range gap between Ace in the Hole and Parrrley.

I was actually banking on Parrrley's obnoxiously long cast animation. I originally got the idea from people running into the brush when I try to Q them. I noticed Gangplank did the animation but never fired, as though he had lost the shot and chose not to fire. It got me thinking about ways for opponents to avoid it.
People usually complain about GP's cast times. I figured we may as well put this cast animation to work. It would function as a very short channel time really. Sorta like how lux or ezreal have long casts on their ults. Its not designed to be always dodgeable, but if you play safe and keep minions in the way, you can usually avoid it in lane (then engage while hes on cooldown). It would be far far harder to dodge than cait ult, but that is ok. I mainly just wanted to rip off the targeted line shot mechanic.

Instead by gutting it's nuke harass power and using it more as a farm tool and flashy duel ending execute, it creates a much more healthy lane.

I'm probably just missing something, but I'm not sure how its harass power went down too much. It took a big hit to base damage I suppose but at a lower mana price point I feel it still huts. I haven't run the laning phase math though ill admit.

doesn't just sit behind his team Qing to QQ all day,

To be fair Gangplank shooting people for massive crit damage lategame is really part of the appeal of playing Gangplank. Its part of why everyone gets into him at some point. ;)

Your proposed parrrley, since it still crits, and its AD scaling is stronger, I feel it keeps the same problems as current Parrrley, but also works as an execute. Use it to start a fight, then it comes off cooldown just in time to finish it.

I bow to your superior Gangplank skill and I like what you have done with the Ult and Oranges. I still feel my Parrrley solution has stronger sea legs (so to speak) than yours, though the execute idea is growing on me. I might amend it onto my parrrley idea as a compensatory buff to make up for the jukability.

EDIT: I started another thread so we can stop posting in this one. I figure this one was dedicated to begging for red posts. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/cQf405t8-gangplank-needs-lane-interaction-with-opponents-i-had-an-idea

lxl RockBall lxlSep 22, 20142 votes

He received an new ability??? or keep the same set?? I think so that he need another damage ability instead of his E.

VenowolfSep 24, 20141 votes

I'll have the same doubt

PikmintsSep 21, 20141 votes

Remember the thread asking about Yorick over a year ago? We even got to see some abilities that were thrown around as possibilities for his changes. I anticipate Riot going aggressive with the reworks and changes once the big-leagues are done and they implement the new Rift. There are a handful of things they refuse to work on simply because they aren't able to put them out until the new Rift is in, so around next preseason I figure we'll hear more on GP, Yorick, the item changes (Manamune and whatnot), and so on.

DocRedgraveSep 21, 20141 votes

Considering Yorick's rework is going to likely be on par with Sion's, I don't see it happening within the next 6 months. I don't mind really.

Zok72Sep 21, 20141 votes

Yorick's rework got tabled for a while. Morello (or possibly xelnath) has stated that they were going to wait while they determined what to do with the fighters as a group before they got to Yorick's specific rework because his rework has to fit within the scope of the greater changes and giving him a cool kit that works now but becomes unusable or out of place when the fighter class changes go through would be terrible for yorick players.

Lumus AvatarSep 21, 20141 votes

Hmm. I love playing Gangplank. I actually like that his Ult hits so randomly. Sometimes you can move through the ult without taking a hit, but sometimes you get slammed. It added a little luck, a lot of realism (since the area is being randomly bombarded) and it made it so I could reliably drop the ult on my allies fighting on the other side of the map and not accidentally steal their kills---Or accidentally triple kill. >:) RANDOM! keep the realism!