Boards›Gameplay

Never understood why Xelnath was loathed for Xerath's rework

Darkomantis··39 votes·4,459 views

Players came to him asking for Xerath changes to make him feel better and he obliged. Xelnath spent the next few months taking in feedback and responding, setting an example of the best player-to-employee interaction ever seen at Riot to date. The man gave back a rework that left Xerath in a place that was more consistent and didn't feel heavily taxed to make his ult count or be irrelevant for a minute or more depending on the stage of the game. But what happened..?

Xerath mains and non-mains called the rework a failure. They complained that Xelnath ignored player feedback and destroyed Xerath by removing his passive/penetration that was "essential to his gameplay" even though his passive didn't do much since ADCs/AD assassins got penetration mid game while his penetration was hard to make use of due to his small damage windows. And they even said that Xerath was nerfed hard and didn't fit the meta during mobility assassins reign.

Now you see people saying "Xerath was my favorite champion before he got reworked" or list Xerath as one of the champions that had their rework fail even though he is more forgiving to play, offers consistent damage, and has 3-4 times the pickrate from before ...

Why do people dislike Xelnath and what he did to Xerath? The statements people make about him makes absolutely no sense at all..

81 Comments

jmaishere50 votes

Because people are gonna complain regardless of whatever happens

Darkomantis4 votes

Yeah, it just makes no sense. Your favorite champion can now deal the same amount of damage in less time and you're complaining x.x

Auz the Ripper3 votes

Are you saying new xerath has higher burst and damage than old xerath? Because that is mildly, totally inaccurate

Is new xerath smoother and less clunky with more utility? Probably Does new xerath have more flat out damage? No

Darkomantis3 votes

Are you saying new xerath has higher burst and damage than old xerath? Because that is mildly, totally inaccurate

Is new xerath smoother and less clunky with more utility? Probably Does new xerath have more flat out damage? No

My response came out wrong. Xerath does the same amount of damage on a shorter cooldown whereas before Xerath was tied to his ultimate that either won him or lost him the teamfight. There is no denying he had the highest burst pre-rework but that burst was confined since it required heavy precision and failure on the enemies fault. New Xerath may not burst out someone to death compared to Old Xerath but he can consistently bring someone out of a teamfight similar to seiging mages Ziggs and Lux.

googlemaster1 votes

you really shouldnt bother with these people. most of them dont even have a ranked game with prework xerath.

maybe in silver xerath was a god cause, you know, they cant dodge skillshots anyways. but prework xeraths win rate was below 50% his entire existance.

LeeDark1 votes

Ha, NO. No champion in the game could put out the massive damage in such a short time frame as old Xerath. Except maybe Veigar, and only if you started the stopwatch just before Dark Matter was about to land instead of when he cast it.

Im Andru22 votes

The minority that hates something is usually more vocal than the majority that doesn't.

Bodkins Odds4 votes

This is pretty much the entirety of it.

Masalar17 votes

There were a couple of reasons.

  1. It was one of the first (if not the first) reworks that interacted with community during the process instead of just suddenly being released. I think this was great, but it meant some people felt that they were being ignored despite offering opinions during the whole process.

  2. Xerath was broken Op (being rarely picked does not negate this fact) and any changes, and thus nerfs, would make Xerath mains unhappy.

  3. We hadn't seen what it was like to actually have a bad rework, like Skarner and Cass. (Maybe Karma too, but that's a maybe).

Basically, the Xerath rework is still one of the best reworks we've had to date, and while it is understandable that there will be complaints, something that will be true for every rework ever, it wasn't that bad.

In fact, during the rework, people involved were, if I recall, mostly positive and happy. I mean, it was the first time a red had walked us through the rework, explained why they were trying A. B. or C., and then explaining why that didn't work and why they were now trying D. E. and F. I'm guessing (repeat, guessing) that most complaints were from people who didn't follow the rework, and came to forums afterwards. I remember seeing posts complaining about how Xerath didn't have X, despite that having been something the red had covered during the process.

I could be very wrong, but in my memory, at least compared to other reworks, the Xerath one was pretty well received.

Vellich0r7 votes

the latest skarner rework was overpowered for about 3 weeks before they nerfed it back, and even still it is very strong depending on the enemy ADC. New Xerath is loved by a large portion of the community and is EXTREMELY powerful right now due to his high damage, massive range, and low cooldowns with a ridiculous stun.

Darkomantis2 votes

the latest skarner rework was overpowered for about 3 weeks before they nerfed it back, and even still it is very strong depending on the enemy ADC. New Xerath is loved by a large portion of the community and is EXTREMELY powerful right now due to his high damage, massive range, and low cooldowns with a ridiculous stun.

I didn't know that the Skarner was overpowered a while ago. Lots of people of people say that Skarner has remained bad and received unjustified nerfs. What was overpowered about him?

Vellich0r2 votes

after the new passive came out, he had such a monstrous mix of damage and utility that if he got even a couple good ganks off (which with dat ult is easy enough) then he would be able to steamroll an enemy team. then they nerfed the damages and he is just out of being a great pick because of mobility

Masalar1 votes

He was released in an absolutely bland AND underpowered state. They eventually buffed him to where he was strong, but still bland. They then later made a few tweaks to make him more balanced and less bland.

Vellich0r1 votes

that's not really what we are talking about. and he was released in a good but out of meta state (where some could use him to insane effect and others weren't so lucky) then reworked into a slightly less powerful state, and then reworked again into an overly powerful state then nerfed so that his lack of use within the meta met with his above average kit powerwise resulted in a balanced champion not neccessarily worth picking over others in the current meta.

Masalar1 votes

It's hard to look up winrates from that far back, but memory was that, upon initial rework release, Skarner sucked. Hard. And I don't really consider whether or not his rework was in or out of meta. I think his initial rework failed to have anything actually interesting or unique about him. He was just a generic jungle bruiser ball of stats. And that was the worst part of the rework.

Vellich0r1 votes

which rework?

Masalar1 votes

Skarner.

Vellich0r1 votes

i know that, which skarner rework? there were 2.

Masalar1 votes

The initial one where he didn't have the passive stun.

Vellich0r1 votes

that was decent, not amazing, but it wasn't complete shit (hell i had a 60% winrate with him after that) but the second rework made him kinda broken (and his unique thing was his ult and his INCREDIBLE duel potential, the ult made him incredibly fun to use.

Flawless Fetus8 votes

Xerath players didn't ask for a rework. Saying people wanted a rework is misleading. Random scrubs who didn't like the then current lightning mage wanted a rework. Xerath players were mad bc their champion got altered and nerfed against their wishes. Random 'i want to shoot lightning' scrubs were mad bc new Xerath is not as flashy/fun as the majority of the roster. Both groups are mad bc visually xerath's e/ult could not possibly look any weaker/generic.

Conncept2 votes

This is complete nonsense, he was between the second and fifth least played character on all three servers Riot had at the time. That means there was a server on which he was less played, than the old Karma.

We can all debate how the rework went, but there is no room whatsoever for the argument that he needed no rework at all.

Sire Hippington7 votes

And yet the few who played him did like him. The point of that rework(and that off karma) was to make him appealing for a wider aray of players, which worked rather well. However, it wasn't what any of the original xerath players wanted, as they liked the old xerath prettymuch exactly the way he was. It was something riot and probably the not yet xerath players wanted

Robins Tights2 votes

Pretty much what Don Pavoni said. For the most part Riot reworks champions more so to increase their popularity. About 50% of them needed their reworks and the other 50% weren't necessary:

Trundle, Sejuani, Karma (Arguably), Katarina, Gragas, Sona, Taric, Xerath - Not necessary and could have just been ability fixes

Kassadin, Evelynn, Olaf, Kayle (arguably), Skarner, Sion, Viktor - Needed it because they were nerfed beyond reason. Except Kass, he was broken and Viktor was released a mess.

Masalar3 votes

Mains never ask for a rework. If they're maining a champ, it means they like the champ as is. Mains not asking for a rework doesn't mean the champ doesn't need or wouldn't benefit from a rework. Old Xerath was stupid strong, and yet also hardly played...that just screams that there is something wrong with his design. Thus he was reworked.

LordOfTheLeague6 votes

Because his ultimate was way better with old xerath. Both in power and visually. And it was like 80% of his gameplay. When we first saw his new ultimate that is really poor visually and nerfed, we were all really disappointed because we thought we lost xerath completely. .

Now if you stop to compare his new and old ultimate, with time you realise his new kit is good but for the loss of such an awesome skill that was arcane barrage.

Today I understand why his ultimate was nerfed that much but I still want it to be reworked visually.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

If they only took the animation for kog'maw's ult, smoothed the texture and gave it a blue-white glow and color, it would be like a 1000% better

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

Yeah, it need a new type of projectile

Darkomantis2 votes

Now if you stop to compare his new and old ultimate, with time you realise his new kit is good but for the loss of such an awesome skill that was arcane barrage.

Today I understand why his ultimate was nerfed that much but I still want it to be reworked visually.

I agree. I completely understand if people were saying that(as a few people mentioned that at the kit release) but they are still hooked up on his gameplay. It will be a while before Xerath receives a Visual Upgrade since he just got a texture update.

Sire Hippington4 votes

While the xerath rework overall was well done, and a great example for good player-to-employee interaction, there are serveral good reasons why original Xerath players complained:

  • The Sinper feeling, as junglerboy16 said, the rooting in place, sniping and then reposition had a great unique feeling.

  • I'd like to see new Q gain slightly more range but root in place for chargeing, giving that awsome speedbuff afterwards. The root->Sipe->speedbuff for reposition felt just awsome on old xerath

  • his overall lategame power. New xerath is strong, but old xerath was op, if not broken once he reached lategame. That was one of the reason why he was reworked, as any straight buff to his early would have made him clearly op overall. however, new xwerath lacks a bit of the omnipotent feeling he once had and i guess some players miss that lategame godmode.

  • The most important reason however is his ult. It simply feels so pathetic compared to the old one, the visual is barly more exiting than AAs, and landing those things vs not cced enemys is nearly impossible if they slightly know how to dodge, making it rather unreliable. It simply doesn'T feel like a powerfull magical artillery, neither from visuals nor from ingame-power. i think there would be 2 ways to make xeraths ult feel better:

  • give two different aoes to the ult, a small one with full damage and a bigger with damage fallof like hydra. The inner aoe should be slightly smaller than now, but the outer more like old xeraths ult, but with a damage falloff from 100% in the center to 40% on the edge. Together with more impressive visuals, the ult would feel much stronger and be more reliable to deal any damage, but even a bit harder to get the full damage

  • increase the number off shots to something like 6 or 7, reduce the damage of hits beyond the first to 50%. That would atleast feel like bombarding an area, and it would also increase the chances to do some damge but lower the chance for max damage.

soh1gh23 votes

he was a higher skill champ now he's an easy ass noob champ only thing that needed a rework on xerath was his passive and maybe a lower cd on his w and he would of been fine

Hayaishi9 votes

he was a higher skill champ now he's an easy ass noob champ only thing that needed a rework on xerath was his passive and maybe a lower cd on his w and he would of been fine

"higher skillcap"

"let me just kill their entire back line with my ult from 1.5k range, such skill much wow.

Onegarion3 votes

Honestly I picked him up a couple months before the rework and honestly I like him post rework much more. I like the feel overall and it still embodies the overall Xerath that was prerework.

I was a little salty about rooting him during the ult and the smaller overall range, but I think the kit as a whole is much better than old Xerath. While the Pen was rather huge to me its not that big of a deal when they gave massive Mana regen back allowing you to poke them down more ultimately doing the same damage and pretty much always being ready for the fight. That passive is actually extremely good and wins me more match ups than I'd probably realize.

I'm not sure why people went crazy, but old xerath was actually really bad against assassins from my experiences. His stun was really hard to get off and now is much easier and making him easier to deal with assassins overall. I'm just not sure how to deal with the flak now, but i think its unwarranted overall because we still ultimately have the same kit just moved around a little. Xerath's identity to me never changed. He is still the long range mage of league and honestly they made it even longer.

Gorzke3 votes

Because thenever you played Xerath before, you felt POWERFULL. You felt like a GOD. I remember 2v5 all the enemy team with Leona and Xerath. I know that is INSANELY Overpowered , but is was POWERFULL.

I have no longer that sensation with this Xerath. If his ult was like one of his rework Ideas (For 8 seconds his AA were his old Ult, you are rooted) that make him feel powerfull but not op, I'd be happy.

Darkomantis1 votes

But you felt like a God every minute and if you didn't land your ultimate at all then you were just a plebeian. Dealing with assassins or damage-orientated fighters felt weird especially with his E+Q. I think you are probably dissatisfied with how the ult visually looks and feels like LordOfTheLeague mentions in his post.

Gorzke4 votes

No, even if you failed all the skillshots, you felt like THE ASCENDED with so many visual magic. Also, it was NEAR IMPOSIBLE to not land your ultimate, because in a 1 sec stun (It didnt had to be yours), you could UNLEASH your power from the hyper range.

Right now you can't land those 3 ultimates on the same second, they have a travel time, its range doesnt fit with all of his others abilites, the AoE is ridicolous, and the damage is bad too...

But he still feels powerfull with his e - w - q combo, he just needs an ability that makes her feel POWERFULL.

NOTE: I want to FEEL POWERFULL, it DOESNT NEED TO BE OP

Auz the Ripper1 votes

There was so much audiovisual reward for using old xerath's skills

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

NOTE: I want to FEEL POWERFULL, it DOESNT NEED TO BE OP

Pretty much my only complain now.

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

because ppl were expecting a buf while xelnath gave him a rework boosting his playabilityy and usefullness

there were even ppl who cired when riot reworked yi, because they grinded the ap yi

junglerboy163 votes

To be honest, I was actually really upset when I heard he had a rework coming out. I had been playing for about 2 months and had just started to really like him. At that point I was obsessed with doing all the math and finding idealized builds for champs and He seemed like he had so much potential. His old passive actually made him surprisingly good against AD assassins, and once one got used to his W's self root, he actually had a really cool sniper-like play style (set up location, take your shots, move on). That play pattern felt so cool and unique and really had some skill required to use correctly (I hadn't gotten very good at it, but I still loved how it felt even in my n00bishness). I really like the new Xerath and would be totally fine if he had been like this all along. However, being given a taste of the good old Xerath right before they changed him really saddened me. I dislike that they removed a really unique play style to put this iteration in. If they had just put this champ in new and left old Xerath alone, I would be twice as happy, but I will never enjoy the new one as much as the old one that I never had a chance to learn well. Old Xerath wasn't toxic or boring, just hard to play, and I think this is a case of Riot fixing something that wasn't broken; the results are great, but the original was just as good/better.

Conncept3 votes

Because they completely botched the concept people bought him for in the first place, and instead of fixing it replaced it with an equally poorly done concept.

Most people purchased him wanting a SIEGE MAGE. But instead at his release they completely watered down his siege mage concept to where he only had one single diluted gameplay element that even contributed to his theme, and the remainder was filled with standard mageish stuff and some SNIPER MAGE elements.

Some players wound up liking the sniper elements and thought that would be a better direction to take him. But still plently of players cried out for them to make him into the siege mage he was supposed to be. Xelnath apparently agreed with the former though as that is the direction he took the redesign. But instead of making him into a sniper mage, they completely watered down the concept again! He sort of felt like a siege mage at his initial launch, and now at his relaunch he sort of feels like a sniper mage.

They made, what the design world refers to, as a spork. And yes it is exactly what you are thinking, something that is just short of being two different things, as to be of no use as either.

Riot, for future reference, just choose a bleeding concept and make it good. And Xerath still needs work, lots of it.

Cloud2733 votes

We don't complain regardless of what happens. We complain when Riot doesn't listen. And Xelnath did not listen to people. He only listened to people who agreed with what he wanted to do with Xerath.

Duke Anax2 votes

That seems to be a general problem at Riot.

junglerboy161 votes

They always seem to go out, start their little thread, and once they reach a quota of "X people kind of agreed with me" they move on ahead with the plan they already had to begin with, resulting in the sub-par reworks that completely miss what the real players who know a thing or two about the champ want from it.

hartar3 votes

I dont get it why people think it was a fail rework. I loved the new xerath.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

It was "failed" in the sense that the niche and playstyle of old xerath was not preserved No one's gonna argue that new xerath isn't a decent champion

hartar1 votes

It was "failed" in the sense that the niche and playstyle of old xerath was not preserved No one's gonna argue that new xerath isn't a decent champion

oh, i got it

jackspades3 votes

Xerath's ultimate lost its visual impact. Before you had thunderbolds striking down from sky. Now, as someones already mentioned on these boards, Xerath throws water ballons on his enemies heads.

Apart from that, his Q is boring to use, since everyone can see when it will come out.

I tried him when he was free and I saw no point on playing him since I already play and enjoy Lux.

Grimztaa2 votes

yet after people complained about cass... they are reworking her again... while Xerath players still complain, they will ignore you and just keep him that way he is now... For the love of Xerath Xerath Change his ULT visual effect and feel... his ult spit balls just doesn't feel powerful!! Riot!!!! his W and Q feel much stronger then his ult... (but a player can dream, a xerath player can dream.....)

PoisonedPeace2 votes

Probably has something to do with Xerath only having 3 abilities now. His ulti is worth absolutely nothing because even slow movespeed champs like naut can easily dodge.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Darkomantis

Does Fiora really need a 50% attack speed slow on her Riposte(W)?
Gameplay168 comments
135
votes
"Garen doesn't need any changes, he's really strong!"
Memes & Games64 comments
128
votes
Unfortunately, Garen is following the trail Gangplank did before he got his rework
Gameplay32 comments
38
votes
@RiotRepertoir, Can we talk about Garen and his place now after the Juggernaut patch?
Gameplay55 comments
32
votes
@Riot/Meddler/Gmang/Xypherous, at least give Gangplank some small buffs until his "possible" rework?
Gameplay18 comments
8
votes
@Riot/Iron Stylus: Best Art school to go to?
Story, Art, & Sound3 comments
8
votes