Mage Update: Concern About Malzahar

Troy242621·Jan 22, 2016·20 votes·9,461 views

Preface: This isn't a joke, Malzahar is one of my most played junglers.

Riot, I'm tremendously concerned that AD Malzahar will, as a playstyle, be overlooked. In its current iteration, it needs literally no changes. It's basically a successful version of Yorick's design, and is an extremely enjoyable playstyle.

It's a unique, healthy, and absolutely awesome playstyle that takes Malzahar in a totally different direction, and I sincerely hope you will consider leaving it virtually unchanged or at least in-tact after his rework.

41 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirJan 22, 201614 votes

Riot, I'm tremendously concerned that AD Malzahar will, as a playstyle, be overlooked. In its current iteration, it needs literally no changes. It's basically a successful version of Yorick's design, and is an extremely enjoyable playstyle.

It's a unique, healthy, and absolutely awesome playstyle that takes Malzahar in a totally different direction, and I sincerely hope you will consider leaving it virtually unchanged or at least in-tact after his rework.

I'm looking to leave some enjoyable version of AD Malzahar intact after his update. It may be different, but I'm hoping that it retains the spirit of what's going on with it.

CrazedPorcupineJan 22, 20168 votes

In order for AD malz to be preserved in it's entirety, you need to keep his ability to stack up at least 2 voidlings (in an optimal situation) and lock them down long enough for the minions to really do damage. However, having his ult be hard CC means that AD Malz still ends up getting countered by QSS.

SolideusJan 22, 20161 votes

Why not merge whatever is enjoyable about AD Malz into regular AP Malz, like you merged AP Yi into AD Yi?

DeathBurstJan 22, 20161 votes

I feel like this is a troll, but it is a funny troll :)

Would you say "Rageblade OP" out loud?

Troy242621Jan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I feel like this is a troll, but it is a funny troll :)

Would you say "Rageblade OP" out loud?

It's not. AD Malzahar jungle is actually a thing.

DeathBurstJan 22, 20161 votes

Of course it is, that was not my point. But I think the comment I responded to was more complaining about Rageblade on Master Yi than actually asking something for Malza.

ExecutorDillJan 23, 20161 votes

maybe your looking at it wrong, malz could become a hybrid champ with mediocre scalings but I think he is more looking at the playstyle... say.. a malz more focused on dealing damage with his voidlings and have an ability to compliment that like Annie .

DeathBurstJan 23, 20161 votes

I don't think that was the point of the comment I responded to. As I said just below, "I think the comment I responded to was more complaining about Rageblade on Master Yi than actually asking something for Malza."

Earl EulrichJan 22, 20162 votes

pls not, it´s vital that they both offer rather different approaches (minion-managment vs zone control).

NinjaGuy69Jan 22, 20162 votes

I'm looking to leave some enjoyable version of AD Malzahar intact after his update. It may be different, but I'm hoping that it retains the spirit of what's going on with it.

Hope you're doing well Repertoir.

Just wanted to add a few thoughts. I usually like your vision for champion updates, but I have to strongly disagree with you on preserving the whole "AD Malzahar" aspect. In my humble opinion, I believe that Malzahar is a mage and should strictly be played like a mage. I find his voidling passive to be odd, to say the least, because it doesn't really fit with his kit.

I believe that for the sake of clarity and in order to create a more cohesive, healthy identity for Malzahar, that his voidling passive should be removed and replaced with something that adds value to his mage identity instead of conflicting with it. It's always very counter-intuitive to me when a mage (or any champion for that matter) that was clearly designed to scale well with a certain type of offensive stat scales with an opposite stat. To me, Malzhar is a mage and his kit should be designed accordingly in order to meet that expectation, even at the cost of eliminating an awkward, niche (and quite frankly unhealthy) build like AD Malzahar. Just my two cents, good sir.

RebonackJan 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Hope you're doing well Repertoir.

Just wanted to add a few thoughts. I usually like your vision for champion updates, but I have to strongly disagree with you on preserving the whole "AD Malzahar" aspect. In my humble opinion, I believe that Malzahar is a mage and should strictly be played like a mage. I find his voidling passive to be odd, to say the least, because it doesn't really fit with his kit.

I believe that for the sake of clarity and in order to create a more cohesive, healthy identity for Malzahar, that his voidling passive should be removed and replaced with something that adds value to his mage identity instead of conflicting with it. It's always very counter-intuitive to me when a mage (or any champion for that matter) that was clearly designed to scale well with a certain type of offensive stat scales with an opposite stat. To me, Malzhar is a mage and his kit should be designed accordingly in order to meet that expectation, even at the cost of eliminating an awkward, niche (and quite frankly unhealthy) build like AD Malzahar. Just my two cents, good sir.

And I consider Malz first and foremost League's primary Minion Master champion with his AP build as a really uninteresting alternative.

If Malz got a new Innate that worked better with his bursty Mage rotation, it means that it would sap power from the rest of his kit and nothing more. Malz' spells are as strong as they are because AP Malz doesn't get the full benefit of the Voidlings.

There's no reason to ruin other people's fun just because you don't enjoy it. That's an incredibly narcissistic point of view.

NinjaGuy69Jan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And I consider Malz first and foremost League's primary Minion Master champion with his AP build as a really uninteresting alternative.

If Malz got a new Innate that worked better with his bursty Mage rotation, it means that it would sap power from the rest of his kit and nothing more. Malz' spells are as strong as they are because AP Malz doesn't get the full benefit of the Voidlings.

There's no reason to ruin other people's fun just because you don't enjoy it. That's an incredibly narcissistic point of view.

You're free to view Malzahar's identity however you want to view it, but that doesn't mean your view of him is the "appropriate" one or of the "correct" one. Malzahar is an old champion who was designed during Riot's infancy. In my opinion, the reason why his voidling passive has such an odd scaling, and the fact that it even exists in the first place, is due to the lack of experience that his team most likely had when initially designing him. One aspect of Malzahar that evidences this is how schizophrenic and random his passive is when compared to the rest of his kit.

It's never fun getting 100 to zeroed by a champion, and this is especially true when a champion is capable of doing it with a niche build. This needs to be rectified so that Malzahar can retain his mage identity while having his kit balanced in a healthy way. There isn't any narcissism in recommending a kit adjustment that clarifies a champion's identity (for both the player and his enemies) while allowing for healthy gameplay patterns and reasonable counterplay. If anything was narcissistic, it would be your audacious suggestion that I was only making this recommendation because I have some bias against Malzahar or Malzahar players. But guess what? I believe that this needs to be done for all champions that have unhealthy, dated kits - not just Malzahar.

RiotRiotRepertoirJan 23, 20167 votes

It's always very counter-intuitive to me when a mage (or any champion for that matter) that was clearly designed to scale well with a certain type of offensive stat scales with an opposite stat. To me, Malzhar is a mage and his kit should be designed accordingly in order to meet that expectation, even at the cost of eliminating an awkward, niche (and quite frankly unhealthy) build like AD Malzahar.

The hope is that Voidlings can be a meaningful source of damage and gameplay for Malzahar regardless of build.

RebonackJan 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The hope is that Voidlings can be a meaningful source of damage and gameplay for Malzahar regardless of build.

While they do already add damage to Malz' rotation even with his AP build, they pretty clearly favor one over the other.

If you do decide to give them some form of AP scaling, I think it would be more interesting to make it so the AP scaling and the AD scaling work differently rather than both simply providing them with bonus damage. I'm just spit-balling here, but something like Voidlings getting a small OnHit nuke on their first attack against a new enemy that scales off ability power. In that way, AP Malz would be more concerned with just getting that one attack off while AD Malz would be more invested in making sure they continue attacking over a longer span of time. That would also make the Voidling growth stages less important to AP Malz, but VERY important to AD Malz.

A higher focus on burst would likewise fit better with AP Malz' identity, I think. It would be a good point of mastery to encourage him to queue up one Voidling ahead of time, and then drop his full combo on a target to make sure he gets that second Voidling nuke.

patmax17Jan 23, 20161 votes

Hello repetoir!

I don't play a lot of mages, but when I do, Malzahar is one if those I enjoy (love his E mechanic). Voidlings never meant much to me. While I surely would appreciate more Voidlings built into Malzahar's gameplay, I was wondering: is there a way to do it without altering his role and playstyle too much? When you work on Malzahar please ask yourself "what is Malzahar's intended role/playstyle/niche? Will this change build upon it, will it change it or shill this lead to a second playstyle, distinct from the first, that can function healthily along it?" I don't see Voidlings working with Malzahar in his DPS, tank-shredding playstyle. I wouldn't mind seeing another build and playstyle become viable, where he maximizes on them, as long as this doesn't mean that power must be taken from his main role.

sorry for my bad english :(

RebonackJan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't see Voidlings working with Malzahar in his DPS, tank-shredding playstyle. I wouldn't mind seeing another build and playstyle become viable, where he maximizes on them, as long as this doesn't mean that power must be taken from his main role.

You don't see how minions that deal extra DPS to Malz' focus target contribute to his DPS pattern?

...okay.

NinjaGuy69Jan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The hope is that Voidlings can be a meaningful source of damage and gameplay for Malzahar regardless of build.

Thanks for the response Repertoir. It's nice getting some insight from you. While I am still worried that the voidlings might detract from Malzahar's mage play pattern, I'm sure you'll do a good job of designing a more balanced Malzahar kit than the one that currently exists. Looking forward to seeing what you're working on!

ExecutorDillJan 23, 20161 votes

My hypothesis was correct!!! Your going to turn Malz into a minion loving shaman like Annie I bet his kit is gonna take a really hard hit in power for this :( You'd think him casting minons is an iconic thing he does but most ap malz players totally ignore their minion and don't try to take advantage of it.

The reason I like malzahar is not only he has a ton of damage but the way he deals it. He is slow, has considerable cast times on his some of his abilities and can waste the damage of half of his kit. Not to mention he is slow and squishy... But in exchange he has hard CC that deals damage and allow his W to be effective.

warpenguin555Jan 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The hope is that Voidlings can be a meaningful source of damage and gameplay for Malzahar regardless of build.

that doesn't mean your going to gut his damage and move it all to his voidlings right? because not a single Malzahar Player wants that

RebonackJan 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

that doesn't mean your going to gut his damage and move it all to his voidlings right? because not a single Malzahar Player wants that

The vibe I've been getting is that AP Malz players don't want their spells gutted to give the Voidlings AP scaling and the AD Malz fans don't want the Voidling AD ratios gutted to give them AP scaling.

Seems to me the safest thing to do would be to completely ignore Malz' Passive for this rework and focus only on his spells, otherwise both AD and AP Malz players will probably be upset. As it stands, Malz' Passive is probably the most healthy, most unique part of his kit. Why change the one thing that works? Why not spend the resources and time on making the rest of his kit better?

BaedafJan 23, 20161 votes

Perhaps this is treading too closely to Yorick territory (can't wait for that rework!), but perhaps shifting more focus to the voidlings could be good. Less ability damage output, but summoning more voidlings and using their focus mechanic to supply his damage. eg. every voidling that is active will immediately change focus on to an enemy champ that Malz has under his R. Keep the voidlings squishy, but have Malz supply the cc and the minions can destroy anything in their wake.

SolideusJan 25, 20161 votes

I'm pretty worried that spending too much energy trying to retain AD Malzahar will create conflicting goals and the rework will suffer for it. Are you confident spending time on AD Malzahar won't stop you from making the decisions you have to for the best possible rework? If AD Malz turn out to conflict a lot with the rework's direction, will you ultimately sacrifice elements of it for the greater good?

KaeblenJan 25, 20161 votes

What are you thinking with regards to Voidling AI?

I believe that currently, Voidlings have some of the best and most predictable AI for all player controlled minions. I know some people disagree with that notion though.

Yuri By MailJan 23, 20162 votes

Best Malzahar NA, Aqua Dragon, would probably invite you to beat AD Malz with AP.

He'd probably win too.

El Del EsteJan 26, 20162 votes

As someone who uses Malzahar exclusively as an AD caster, and noticing that you (ninjaguy69) don't play Malzahar (according to match history I could find), why do you care about this update? My champion pool has been nerfed to the ground since I started to play five years ago, don't advocate to take away the most fun I've had in League with a champion rework for someone you don't even play. Especially when there's nothing op about ad or ap Malzahar. I get what you're saying, but come on man. Play nice with champion reworks even if they don't fit your exact paradigm for what you think the champion should be.

Troy242621Jan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm tremendously concerned that AD Malzahar will, as a playstyle, be overlooked. In its current iteration, it needs literally no changes. It's basically a successful version of Yorick's design, and is an extremely enjoyable playstyle.

I'm looking to leave some enjoyable version of AD Malzahar intact after his update. It may be different, but I'm hoping that it retains the spirit of what's going on with it.

Thank you very much! :D.

Aqua DragonJan 22, 20165 votes

I hope my recent thread will help in this quest!

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4248ya/masterdiamond_ad_jungle_malzahar_malzahar_is/

SH AzykanJan 23, 20161 votes

he lives O:

INoble KnightIJan 22, 20161 votes

I have a somewhat off topic question. Why is Malzahar getting changed for being "unhealthy" but Annie isn't? She is literally point and stun near insta death (and some cases instant death).

RebonackJan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm tremendously concerned that AD Malzahar will, as a playstyle, be overlooked. In its current iteration, it needs literally no changes. It's basically a successful version of Yorick's design, and is an extremely enjoyable playstyle.

I'm looking to leave some enjoyable version of AD Malzahar intact after his update. It may be different, but I'm hoping that it retains the spirit of what's going on with it.

Please share your ideas with us before they get locked in. Players that have a lot of familiarity with AD Malz will be able to recognize potential issues that might not be apparent otherwise.

Troy242621Jan 22, 20167 votes

Just to clarify, I'm advocating that his passive remain unchanged or, at the very least, the AD scaling and AS left alone.

I'd really feel a lot better if a Rioter at least acknowledges that the playstyle exists.

lightdragoon88Jan 22, 20163 votes

I literally have 0 care for AD Malzahar or his passive Voilding and would be ok with both leaving. It's the Space Aids that I like about Malz.

RebonackJan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I literally have 0 care for AD Malzahar or his passive Voilding and would be ok with both leaving. It's the Space Aids that I like about Malz.

If he got a new Passive that scales with AP or in some fashion gives AP Malz more damage than ADless Voidlings do, then Malz would be losing out on damage from the rest of his kit.

Malz is already strong. Whatever Riot does can not be a buff. Power needs to be moved from one part of his kit to another.

LaoBushidoJan 22, 20161 votes

Um quick question. Why don't you post this on that dev post? Also riotreptar said that as malz will most likely be left alone

Troy242621Jan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Um quick question. Why don't you post this on that dev post? Also riotreptar said that as malz will most likely be left alone

Mostly concerned it wouldn't be addressed, and if more players are exposed to AD Malzahar, that'd be cool.

LaoBushidoJan 22, 20161 votes

To be fair you would have gotten more attention there as when you post there the riot who made the post would have gotten an alert as as opposed to posting a one off which may highly likely be ignored . When I posted my concerns about him there were two other people complaining that they did not want ad malz to go. More than likely Ad malz will get more attention when urf comes around I learned about ad malz during the first urf and use him every urf since

Troy242621Jan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

To be fair you would have gotten more attention there as when you post there the riot who made the post would have gotten an alert as as opposed to posting a one off which may highly likely be ignored . When I posted my concerns about him there were two other people complaining that they did not want ad malz to go. More than likely Ad malz will get more attention when urf comes around I learned about ad malz during the first urf and use him every urf since

Glad to see someone else enjoy him. I see your point, but I already saw it was mentioned on the thread, and nobody replied to it. I've seen reds are forum lurking right now, and I'm hoping one will tell another until eventually someone gives some insight on the topic in terms of if preserving it is something Riot wants to do.

LaoBushidoJan 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Seems like something worth preserving in some fashion or another. As less of a Malzahar-specific thing and more as general principle, I think it's probably best to try to leave things like off-builds in a roughly equal state following updates, though it can be difficult. This assumes they're not causing large scale gameplay problems, and that they're not forcing the champion to be balanced around an off build. It's something I tried to manage well with Kog'Maw, though it's hard to say to what effect.

TyroneWatermelonJan 23, 20161 votes

Malzahar is never healthy in any way.

SuperslimfaceJan 25, 20161 votes

Im just worried that they change malz too much, I love him in his current state and think hes pretty balanced too. I hope the changes are minor fun ones and dont take away his core identity. Core -dots -dogs -ult

Changeable Q and W ( Although I do actually love the Q for zoning and the lovely silence. Any word from any rioter about how much change his going through. As you can see I play him alot :D.

HightQJan 27, 20161 votes

I understand that you do it on your own. But for whom are you doing heroes? For yourself ? Or on players ? You should share ideas on how to change them. For so many years, people have become accustomed to it and have adapted to the game. Changing not always for the better. Malza is well. I hope you will not destroy his heritage.