BeenmetaeverysingleseasonFucking meaningfully nerf it. He chokes diversity down to shit stomping early game and keeping pace with his retarded ganks.
EDIT: I'm not saying gut him, I'm saying bring him in line with his competition.
Frightning17 votesPopular and viable is problematic because.....why?
Troy24262170 votesPopular and viable is problematic because.....why?
Viable? He's defining the meta. Again. It's not a coincidence that 
becomes popular every single time Lee does. How many junglers do you know have high mobility, high CC and high damage?
So few junglers can keep pace with his sheer pressure, and only a few can actually duel him. Warping role diversity is problematic.
Frightning6 votesIs he? Maybe Elise is popular because she's actually good again (she had been overnerfed for quite a while). Also, Lee Sin and Elise like similar metas, and the current meta is one both of them like. The meta being what it is has more to do with other game systems than specific champion balance imo.
Zerenza4 votesI'v been seeing nidalee a little more, she was basically non-existant until lee started getting his 41% playrate in all ELOs. Her, shaco, elise,graves and warwick are some of the only champions i can think of that can keep up with lee sin's preassure.
The thing with three of those champions is, they got heavily nerfed and have received no buffs since. It's just the fact that they are the only champions that can keep up with him that's making them played more.
BioticBrony13 votesHow is he defining the meta?
No criticism, just curious.
Swiggity Swooty26 votesTL;DR - Lee's ability to gank with ease, farm with ease, and duel with ease in the early game and give his team a resounding lead is limiting the roster diversity in the Jungle, i.e. "defining the meta" similar to old Renekton top.
Lee's case is similar to the day's of past Renekton top. However, Renekton was such a meta-definer that champions were compared to what was known as the "Renekton bar", as in, "you can take X champion top lane if he/she doesn't get dumpstered by Renekton in lane by this much". Although Lee's case is similar to Renekton's case, comparative junglers are given a bit more breathing room because of the fact that you can handle Lee Sin by warding properly and dueling him within your jungle WITH teammates compared to having to abandon top lane against Renekton or fight him with your jungler and risk dying 2v1 and giving Renekton the double kill and control of the rest of the game.
statelesskiller1 votesone of the things about this meta is "who does the jungle not beat the shit out of" mostly its raptors. raptors beats the shit out of most junglers now. except lee. lee can do that shit with ease. graves is up there. as well. elise is good because lee sin is good
Nuparu7 votesLee is not strong because of raptors though, especially since it's insanely difficult to clear first rotation with Lee lol
He's strong because he just outpressures the shit out of anything else viable since most of the other early gankers have been nerfed.
Yfrappefort17 votesRiot made it pretty clear they never want Lee Sin to drop out of any meta.
The only time since his release he got left behind was during the Cinderhulk meta in season 5, and by the end of the season he quickly came back (buffs just before World). Even during that small period, he was still good, just not a top tier jungler.
They will buff him as soon as he fall out of flavor (read here stop being king of the jungle) as they have done many times.
Perma-spotlight for him it is.
NiceTryVi15 votesAnd that is the problem that OP is calling out. It is utter bullshit that this blind asshole gets to tromp all over the rift, fucking all comers. It is unfair to the players, and unfair to people who watch the LCS. I wanna see some other junglers besides Lee, I wanna see Amumus, XinZhaos, Skarners, etc.
RenownedWheat4212 votesWhere you seein 50% winrate?
op.gg has him at 47
champion.gg has him at 47-49 in every elo
AMYS GRAVE19 voteshttp://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/platinum
49.8%
http://lolalytics.com/champion/LeeSin/Jungle/
49.76%
Champion.gg is notoriously bad, it never seems to match other sites and a rioter at some point confirmed that champion.gg doesn't match their internal data (can't find the link to that statement right now)
RenownedWheat427 votesStill, op.gg has his overall winrate at 47%. Doesn't break 50% until AFTER plat.
This is just a mechanically complex champion having higher winrates when played by better players - what is the actual problem here?
AMYS GRAVE23 votesRenownedWheat421 voteshttps://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/
ctrl+f lee sin
AMYS GRAVE24 votesYou're including bronze and silver games in your argument? Typically we call out winrates for Plat+ games to talk about balance.
If you sort that list by plat+ games he has a 49.63% WR (not clearing 50% as you claimed but close), so that matches lolalytics and leagueofgraphs.
TheHappyReaperz12 votesConsidering Bronze, Silver, and Gold make up the majority of League, balance there is also important.
AMYS GRAVE7 votesI agree that we can't ignore those games, but that's not how winrates are generally reported. We need to be consistant in our discussions. If you want to talk about a specific elo then feel free to discuss that of course, but it has to be denoted as such.
ChaoticPinecone5 votesIf you want to talk about a specific elo then feel free to discuss that of course, but it has to be denoted as such.
Then you should also hold yourself to the same standard. You should note that youre only talking about Lee Sin's state of balance in Diamond+ games.
But then that begs the question - is Lee Sin really the most unbalanced champion in higher tiers of play? It looks like he only really breaks even starting around high-plat or low-diamond. Again - not getting a ridiculously high winrate (looking at you, Ivern), but just breaking even. If it takes a Diamond+ player to get Lee Sin to win 50% of the time, is that a problem? Some champions who are mechanically more intensive and require thinking, planning, and map movement just do better in the hands of more skilled and knowledgeable players. In this case, "better" means "win half the games".
On the flip side, there are champions who fare worse against more skilled and knowledgeable players, eg Garen. Isnt it also a problem that Garen has a 44% winrate in Diamond+ games? But people arent exactly calling for Garen buffs, are they? Why does this reasoning only apply when asking for nerfs?
SweedishGunner4 votesThe Champ.gg beta has him at 50% winrate with 41% playrate, so the beta seems to be working better.
GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes51% in dia, 58% in master, 54% in challenger. "every elo"
AMYS GRAVE7 votesmaster and challanger winrates are often quite wonky because of low statistics and high matchmaking variance in those games.
ShaolinToilet3 votesLee is one of the most played champions in master and Challenger though
Troy2426213 votesLee is one of the most played champions in master and Challenger though
So what? They'll switch to 
. There are plenty more strong junglers out there, Lee's pressure is fucking absurd.
The notion that nerfing Lee makes the jungle role worse is absurd.
This Is Your Dad9 votes50% win rate is perfect.
Lugg59 votesActually no. When you have a highly mechanical champ at 50%, it's the equivalent of Master Yi being 65%.
Highly mechanical champs always have higher outplay potential and therefore always need to have their win rates lower, because once you master them, they will easily be above 50% win rate.
Weasel Kensei9 votesNot to mention that his playrate should alone be lowering it as it will include many less experinced players that should be draging it down to 40ish %.
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votesHow do you figure his winrate includes many less experienced players? Lee doesn't have a disproportionately low level of expert players just because he's popular. Lots of people play him and therefore he has a lot of good players that boost the winrate just as much as new Lee players lower it.
Sp33d Zer010 votesBecause he is in 40% of all games. 40% of jungle players are not lee sin experts.
DunkinNoobs4 votesActually no. When you have a highly mechanical champ at 50%, it's the equivalent of Master Yi being 65%.
How does this garbage have 26 upvotes?
SEKAI19 votesHow does this garbage have 26 upvotes?
It's not a good way to put it, but what they were trying to say isn't wrong.
50% win rate isn't the universal standard, because champs are not designed equal, as such their benchmark for balance should have different standards for the same set of metrics, essentially.
A mechanically simple champion can be balanced at 50% because there is little variety on what they can actually do in practice, meaning a 50% win rate is a pretty sound standard to say they are doing just fine without being either too oppressive or too underperforming.
In the case of mechanically diverse champions, there is a lot of variables that can not be meaningfully quantised due to many of the uncertainty factors in-built in the kits which would scale greatly either up or down with the player's personal skill rather than having a guaranteed expectation(s) to work with, and their performance will vary massively between their inexperienced players and those who are well-versed. Balancing those champs at 50% means even bad players are going to be doing average on champs who are mechanically not "new-friendly", ie who they are supposed to suck with, which would inevitably mean those champs being overtuned in the higher levels of play.
This is why "LC$BIGPlAYZ" even became a thing, because Riot refuses to allow more complex champs to underperform in lower levels of play like they should, insisting on buffing them so even the not-so-great players perform adequately on mechanically intensive champs who they obviously are not yet cut for, and those champs simply became overpowered in the high level environment. And those champs went on dominating the pro scenes.
Dota2, a game where it's usually widely considered to be one of the better balanced MOBA/ARTS on the market (until the recent shitstorm that is, I have no idea what happens after though), that constantly enjoys 90%+ pick rate in their tournaments for idk how long now, balances in a ways that allow their heroes to have massive >60% and wooping <40% win rates, because they know win rate is not a sole exclusive determinant on who's balanced or not.
Riot obviously knows this btw, that is why LB's win rate is always kept in the lower 40s% for that reason, but for some reason they hesitate to put it on champs like Lee who literally personifies the problem we'd just talked about for years now, and no actual addressing in sight.
DunkinNoobs1 votesIt's not a good way to put it, but what they were trying to say isn't wrong.
It actually is because it assumes that there are more bad players on a champ than good ones which should drag their winrate down. Lee Sin is nowhere near that hard; it's not that difficult to do ok on Lee Sin. Frankly, Master Yi isn't that easy either, which made his comparison even more spurious. Playrate and skill curve affect winrate to a certain degree but nowhere near the level most people think it does; on roles like adc, playrate doesn't seem to affect winrate at all if the last few seasons worth of stats are any indication. Hell, even skill curve only affects winrate on champions with the absolute highest of skill floors such as Ryze, Nidalee, and Azir. Lee Sin? Not in that conversation.
Lugg1 votesFrankly, Master Yi isn't that easy either,
Honestly the worst thing I have ever read in 5 years of being on these boards. Yi is hands down the easiest champ in the game. I got a pentakill with him the very first time I played him for god's sake.
Junkο1 votesYou have clearly not seen Cowsep play Yi then.
Yi is in no way the easiest champion to play, he might seem like it though because if you are new you are playing against people who have no fucking clue how to deal with Yi.
Annie, Nunu, Singed, etc, there are so many champions that take way less kill than Yi.
Lugg1 votesI've seen Cowsep and Faker play him. He takes about the closest to zero skill there is in any game. The ONLY thing that takes skill on Yi is timing your Q to dodge abilities. That's literally it.
Annie is definitely easy, but working around her stun alone is more complex than Yi's entire kit. Nunu relies on counter jungling which is one of the harder things in the game. Singed is light years harder than Yi, just try to proxy against any team that is competent.
SEKAI2 votesI've seen Cowsep and Faker play him. He takes about the closest to zero skill there is in any game. The ONLY thing that takes skill on Yi is timing your Q to dodge abilities. That's literally it.
Annie is definitely easy, but working around her stun alone is more complex than Yi's entire kit. Nunu relies on counter jungling which is one of the harder things in the game. Singed is light years harder than Yi, just try to proxy against any team that is competent.
Yi requires rather minimal "mechanical skill" beyond clutch-timing Q and W, but needs far more "game skill" than most champs in a high skill environment. Because what he can do is extremely limited and predictable, not to mention having absolutely no CC and zero second chances/getting-out-of-jail-card, and so in highly competitive and punishing environments like higher elo range, his players have no choice but to somehow appear in the right place and at the right time, constantly throughout the game, and again, no second chances for any of his potential mess-ups, none whatsoever.
And it's definitely not easy. This is also one of the biggest reasons why he is so very rarely played in elo brackets above Silver and Gold.
In low elo the situation is different though. But then again, we never use the situation in low elo for anything, just as we don't call a particular football strategy broken or easy/cheap just because it may be so in middle-school matches for whatever reason.
But whatever the case, the most "easy" champ is and will always be none other than Tryndamere in the foreseeable future.
MarkVir175 votesGood example is Ryze :D He has 39% winrate, but pros like to play him.
Rıots Bad Client5 votesI'll just suggest what I said before.
Movement speed From: 350 to 330 Q: Decrease the missile speed. Increase the range from 1100 to 1150(very slightly) W: option 1: Increase the cooldown to 24 from 14. But have an effect where he W's himself or an Allie. The cool down is reduced by 2/3. And Increase the Duration of the second half.
Option 2: Blitz crank strat. But... IF he ward jumps, or jumps to an allied creep, He reduces his movement speed by 50%
I'm not suggesting ALL nerf are applied. but just 1. But let's give some context. Movement speed. This will just reduce his clearing speed. and give more time for other jungs to get out in time. Q nerf: This is to kill the flash-R to Q combo with no counterplay(other than to hope the lee sin wiffs the Q) It just nerfs the Combo giving some counter play.
W. This is just to reward W himself and allies in team fights rather than to W to engage behind carry's to R. These are just simple nerfs. They're NOT ment to kill him and the feel for him. Its just to open up some windows. Hell IF these are taken, You can actually buff his numbers, Like shield, damage etc IF the nerfs are a bit to much.
ModKnightsKemplar3 votesEven still, 50% is alright... I don't know what the problem is if he's balanced. We just need the other champs to match it, not to nerf Lee.
Golden Tager X18 votes50% playrate, that means even people that don't have experience on him are doing well.
As playrate goes up winrate should go down.
Sadistic Veigar2 votesAhri?
PrinceOfStorms4 votesShould also get nerfed into the dirt. Maybe remove the speed boost from her Q and make Charm her ult (removing her current ult)
Elikain17 votesWhat the actual fuck? You don't want Ahri nerfed, you want every bit of her mobility removed because you don't like her? I don't know how can you sleep well at night because that's fucking brutal.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/925/498ed76be651cffb6bb9bac6a9bb75c3.png
Voluug134 votesIDK if Riot will insist on calling her a mage maybe rework her as a mage instead of pretending she isnt a kite assassin?
ModAcademy Kayn5 votesThink of the difference between Mages and Assassins as a Spectrum. On the Far left, mages like Xerath, Lux, and Annie, and on the Far Right, people like Zed, Talon, Leblanc. The main differences between them is Assassins have more common on-demand mobility, but lack CC/range. Mages get Range and CC, but they lack mobility.
Now, since it is a spectrum, that means there is a mid-point. People like Elise are much closer to the Midpoint, where the two classes are joined. She's an assassin, but they also have mage-like qualities. People like Ahri, are mages that are closer to the mid point. She's a mage with assassin-like qualities. However, neither of the examples get listed to such extremes.
However, the closer you are to the middle, the less of the extremes you have. Ahri doesn't have the range of other mages, nor does she have CC either. (Most mages have more than just a single CC). Same goes for Ahri's mobility. Outside of her Q, her only actual mobility is on an Ult's CD, which is unlike any other assassin. Look at Elise, and you see the same. She has mobility, but it's conditional on a target. She has CC, but it's single target.
Neither have the extremes of either class, but they get a good bit of the ones inbetween.
Guy Fox Teemo1 votesThat would only be true if a majority of those players are new Lee Sin players. But that isn't true.
Most people who play Lee Sin, have already played Lee Sin several times, so supporting a 50% win rate is reasonble.
Golden Tager X2 votesYou understand what you just implied right? Because you just implied that 50% of all junglers, autofilled, filled, secondary, and mains, play Lee Sin. Supporting a 50% winrate with that playrate would somehow mean that 50% of junglers had 15-20+ games on Lee.
Guy Fox Teemo3 votes50% of all junglers don't play Lee Sin, that is not how play rate works lmao. Lee Sin is in 50% of games, but that doesn't mean that 50% of people play Lee Sin... that would only be true if everyone played him once, also a majority of those people who play lee sin have 15-20+ games , and that can very well be true. Why?
Because Lee Sin has been the most popular champion in this game since like since his release. (Or at least one of those, goes on and off to like 3rd-8th place, when he's really bad in a meta)
AbyssionKnight1 votesAlternatively buff all champions to Lee Sin's level, so they can be viable pocket picks every season.
Troy2426219 votesAlternatively buff all champions to Lee Sin's level, so they can be viable pocket picks every season.
The jungle roster is already full of some pretty strong champions, and you really don't want to see a Summoner's Rift where we impact games more than we already do.
Lee Sin is a unique beast, given he has mobility, damage and CC early game with an incredible capacity to duel. Consequently, he's extremely difficult to punish whilst he makes these influential plays early to mid game. You do not want all junglers to be able to do this.
Laners don't even have a chance to breathe with him running around, meanwhile I'm forced to keep pace or he runs my games over, hence forcing me to pick an early game pressure jungler as well and choking diversity out. Alternatively, pick a jungler with a slower tempo and watch my laners get crushed.
