Who Did the Sion Rework?

Troy242621·May 23, 2015·189 votes·6,469 views

The Sion rework is the best rework ever produced by Riot. It took a disjointed character with a weak identity and turned him into a strong, much easier to balance, undead berserker.

His theme is bloodthirsty undead juggernaut, and he actually feels like this when played. Clear strengths, clear weaknesses, clear role, and is very fun to play while not being horrible to play against.

Whoever is responsible for this needs to do more reworks. They were spot on and have shown tremendous capability for designing healthy champions.

110 Comments

KING OF MASKSMay 23, 201512 votes

I agree, and I would go one step further: as a whole Sion is one of the best pieces of content rito has ever produced. Hats off to everyone who contributed to the creation of this Sion son of Noxus.

DecritMay 24, 20152 votes

Even the champion reintroduction page and the lore that was exposed was awesome.

For real, not many resources spent on videos and stuff but that was better than Azir imho.

Mirage NightMay 24, 20154 votes

I really hope they do this with Evelynn too. She is in the same boat as Sion in the thematic sense and would be cool to get the same treatment.

AquariusGineMay 23, 20159 votes

Cassiopeia Somebody save my rework

Baron of BreadMay 24, 20157 votes

The new Sion is fantastic. He has a very strong identity and place in the lore. His gameplay fits into both of those perfectly. He is a great champion.

The rework, as a rework, was not that great. The Undead Champion (Sion's previous title) is gone. That character no longer exists and his gameplay no longer exists. Anyone who enjoyed Sion can no longer enjoy that Sion. Sure, they can enjoy new Sion, but the Undead Juggernaut and the Undead Champion are very dissimilar champions.

The PorlandeanMay 23, 20155 votes

when i play sion i feel like i cant die or that my enemies run away and it feels like its always his last stand or something when i use his ult i feel like he has such anger sion rework really immerses you in him

TheDeviceMay 23, 20155 votes

Pls whoever did the sion rework do the Aatrox and Varus rework XD

U4fyn2vZzWMay 24, 20155 votes

We need whoever did this rework to do the same thing to Cassiopeia asap.

gubigubiMay 24, 20154 votes

Ya it was a combination of a really well put together rework plus a champion who literally could only get better.

TomatosxMay 24, 20154 votes

I wonder who did the cass rework too :l

hh the thinkerMay 23, 20153 votes

I believe it's the whole of the balancing team, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be). so the people who did the sion rework did the other reworks also. again, I really could be wrong on this, so don't take what I say as fact.

AtheosisXMay 23, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hml2aLLz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-23T20:43:22.387+0000)

I believe it's the whole of the balancing team, unless I'm mistaken (and I could be). so the people who did the sion rework did the other reworks also. again, I really could be wrong on this, so don't take what I say as fact.

It had to have involved an actual designer, not just balance people. I mean it's basically an all-new champ. Rework really isn't the right term for it honestly.

Rico NastyMay 23, 201529 votes

I refuse to believe the Sion rework and Cass rework were done by the same people tbh

Remlap1223May 23, 20154 votes

It's no a question of refuse to believe, it's can't believe. There's no way that the same person on the balance team could make Maokai, Nidalee, and Sion a thing while also making the abortion cakes known as Cassiopeia, Skarner, and Sona a thing.

Rinky DinkyMay 24, 20157 votes

Skarner and Sona are fine lmao

Sightless66May 24, 20156 votes

Skarner is arguably a pretty strong champion, yet sees miniscule play. He hasn't attracted new players even though he's much stronger than he was pre-rework. He's fine balance-wise, but his design is so boring, so uninspired, that I'm still calling the rework a failure.

DomainSpecificMay 24, 20154 votes

He used to be way more fun before the rework. The permaslow was his identity. Making people panic knowing that if they blew their mobility spells, they will not be able to escape.

You going faster is not as satisfying as the enemy going slower imo.

MohaganMay 24, 20153 votes

riot changing permaslow is completely fine (although i do miss playing skarner the way he used to be) but then they give ashe the permaslow? like come on whoever reworked her. riot made a statement about not liking permaslow and then there's ashe.

AnidanMay 24, 20152 votes

Ashe also isn't a damn-near unkillable duelist like Skarner was back when he had it. She pays dearly for her slow (no mobility in any way shape or form, which is very, very painful for an ADC), Skarner didn't pay near as much because of the 'risk' of getting the slow in the first place. So he became this juggernaut that your team absolutely had to pay attention to, and while you're paying attention to probably the tankiest person on their team (because if you didn't, he would guarantee that your ADC died) the rest of their team can easily sweep up in the meantime.

They didn't like permaslow on Skarner because 1) it was NOT his identity. His identity has always been his stinging ult. That's part of why his in-game model has such a freaking enormous stinger - to drive his gameplay identity home. And 2) it made him extremely hard to deal with, and whether being that hard to deal with came earlier or later because of being fed, it still makes him very frustrating to play against, and some considered it an aspect of his kit that made him feel binary. Imagine, rather than Ashe (whose permaslow actually IS her identity) or Skarner that someone like Jax had it instead. He's an extremely strong duelist, and when he gets ahead he's already hard to deal with. Now add that permaslow. That was old Skarner, and it was extremely frustrating.

He got his slow removed for a reason, Ashe didn't get her slow removed for a similar reason that it got removed from Skarner. On Skarner it felt like unnecessary power to a tanky melee bruiser that could guarantee someone dead if they got caught, even slightly. On Skarner it's a requirement to make up for her lack of any mobility, and lower damage to most ADCs.

Rinky DinkyMay 24, 20152 votes

Cass was all stashu.

Only Play DariusMay 24, 20154 votes

"Lets leave her early game issues untouched, offload ALL of her power to a point and click nuke Urgot , and give her a passive that does nothing other than make her a 1400AP monster once the game timer reaches a certain number"

Summarizes the opinions I have observed regarding the Cassiopeia rework. I personally don't have any right to state my own opinion because I never played her pre-rework, and I am garbage with her right now and can never seem to win lane with her as it is (by far the most difficult midlaner I have ever played, so much for point and click nukes being easy).

I Main SwainMay 24, 20153 votes

while I agree that her rework was done poorly (shot way off target, but in vaguely the right direction), I was always so pissed when I heard people whining about how "terrible" she was. I tried her out after the rework (before the passive change) and decided that she was insanely strong. it's one thing to say that the rework was poorly done and that her identity is not currently what it should be. it's an entirely different thing to say she's bad just because she doesn't play the same way. don't think that im talking about you, your mentioning the rework just reminded me of it. Im actually planning on buying her soon just to spite all the haters. even if the passive change did make her way worse (I really have no clue) I still wanna give her a shot.

Rico NastyMay 24, 20154 votes

Don't buy Cass. She is getting gutted, the changes are on PBE rn

iamleburkMay 24, 20152 votes

it didnt make her worse as in shit tier, at least not after they buffed the shit out of her. It made her worse because there used to be 2 or 3 ways to play her, and now there is only one. She is just simply not as fun to play anymore, even if she is kinda OP atm

I Main SwainMay 24, 20151 votes

in their defense, she does feel like a hard champion to work with. after all, you want to be able to give her a core identity with a few branches of play style off of that, but at the same time balancing with that can be crazy hard. for example, one of the most common complaints that ive heard is that her q does no damage now. personally, I don't entirely agree that its better, but i'll just roll with it. if riot wants to have that as a play style as well as building around her e as another play style, that would be really hard to balance. making both strong without making it op, but simultaneously keeping counterplay without making them under powered. im not in any way saying that we should just roll with the rework, but at the same time I kindof understand their situation from a completely unknowledgeable PoV.

iamleburkMay 25, 20151 votes

I agree with the idea that its hard to balance the two play styles, but imo they should have kept the DOT mage identity rather than the machine gun mage play style.

PINGPONGPOMay 24, 20156 votes

Zilean Veigar seem like they were worked on by the same people, who are not likely to be those worked on Sion.

BârdMay 24, 20153 votes

Take that guy, and hand him Zilean, Veigar, and Ryze.

They need some help.

SyvenonMay 25, 20151 votes

tbh I really like the veigar rework... Admittedly the delay on e is super frustrating, especially against high mobility champs, but being able to kill 2 minions with Q is so fucking good.

WutsKrakenMay 24, 20153 votes

It's awesome, Sion became one of my main junglers really quickly but ugh, last batch of nerfs really screwed him over in lane basically forcing him to jungle.

He's still a strong jungler at least, but his lane counters whom he could at least face in a skill matchup basically crush him now

Kinda wish they'd take back part of his last shield nerf, shield explosion duration nerf would be nice. Still makes him have to tactically use his shield because it's easier to pop, but doesn't make it basically impossible to use in lane for damage and makes his first jungle clear

Silents429May 24, 20152 votes

Instead of shield nerf, make it so his ult isn't up every 40 seconds, or lower the damage his E does from a minion hitting you.

I like him in lane but jesus christ its a constant barrage of minions being tossed at you.

WutsKrakenMay 24, 20151 votes

They already lowered his E damage. The nerf already stops him from really being all that repressive in lane nerfing that more would make it useless

Also, his ult isn't up every 40 seconds. It's just that Sion tends to build like 40% CDR anyway so its always much shorter

Silents429May 24, 20151 votes

Also, his ult isn't up every 40 seconds. It's just that Sion tends to build like 40% CDR anyway so its always much shorter

This is all the more reason to increase it, everyone builds 40% CDR anyway and it doesn't need to be that short given how much lockdown and damage Sion can bring.

They already lowered his E damage. The nerf already stops him from really being all that repressive in lane nerfing that more would make it useless

Other then being a slow to setup his Q and reducing armor by 20%

It is still a huge harass.

WutsKrakenMay 24, 20151 votes

His E harass is still largely inferior to maxing his Q to smash down on his opponents

Poor wording, I mean that nerfing his E more would be useless. 9/10 times you max Q over E on lane Sion now because it's already pretty weak for harass

Also, considering how easy it is to counter Sion's ult and how long the CD is early-midgame, there's no real point in nerfing CD. If he's supposed to be a big strong unstoppable late-game juggernaut with a moderate earlygame, I say let him

You have to also consider his lvl 1 and lvl 2 ults are among to the highest CD's in the game for ults at that rank

Silents429May 25, 20151 votes

I don't understand, it is far easier to dodge his Q then his E, and see them maxing both in various games.

Sions ult is easy to counter from a distance, but majority of ult uses are either utility to get around quicker late game, or done from point blank where dodge it is impossible.

As much as I like the new Sion he can be absolute bs to deal with sometimes.

WutsKrakenMay 25, 20151 votes

If your teamcomp sucks against him then yeah he'll be bs to deal with. Kinda the point...and I think you're probably having trouble taking him on/crushing enemies with him because your teamcomps/the enemy's teamcomps just fail vs a Sion I've had plenty of games where the entire team is so weak vs CC that Sion's such a godly pick. And I've been in games where Sion was 100% useless to his team because he couldn't do anything

If a Sion maxing E-->Q-->W is crushing his lane...well dang the guy he's laning against must either have no clue how to play vs Sion, or must be such an awful matchup vs Sion that he can max Q and E safely without his W. 1 or 2 autos can pop Sion's lvl 1 shield with ease and spamming/maxing E first weakens his teamfight greatly by lowering his real AoE damage, face it E'ing a minion through the enemy in a teamfight doesn't really do much.

Sion's E isn't the easiest thing in the world to dodge, but it's probably his weakest damage spell. It's more mana efficient to EQ with Q max and this does plenty more damage

Also, lategame is where he's supposed to shine plus his ult is his ONLY mobility, he gets kited to hell without it unless for some dumb reason you're staying in melee range of him.

I mean, people don't complain about a Nautilus ult having the same CD as a Sion ult but offering arguably more teamfight utility, plus a lot more reliable and if people aren't building 40% CDR on Nautilus, then goddammit they're wasting such potential

Silents429May 25, 20151 votes

I mean, people don't complain about a Nautilus ult having the same CD as a Sion ult but offering arguably more teamfight utility, plus a lot more reliable and if people aren't building 40% CDR on Nautilus, then goddammit they're wasting such potential

Completely different champions, comparing why 1 thing is okay on this champion but not on another doesn't mean anything.

I can go ahead and blame my dislike towards his E on inexperience against him, but I have laned against Sion as a multitude of champions with variety of team comps and don't witness him being useless. He has massive CC and full tank with no damage items still allows him to destroy squishies with ease.

WutsKrakenMay 25, 20151 votes

You deal with SIon just like with every other tank in the damn game. He doesn't have the most CC in the game and doesn't have the most damage of all tanks in the game. He's a mixed bag with the same strengths and weaknesses as every other tank. Plenty of counters to him, calling him bs because of not capitalizing on his counters is well basically QQ

Some methods:

You can defeat Sion by having another tank/tanky bruiser dive his backline. This means the enemy has to focus that diver and Sion will get shredded as he gets kited backwards. If he tries to peel then the squishy carries are free from him.

Teamcomps with disengage like Nami, Janna, or Zyra will make Sion useless if he tries to dive forcing him to peel for his own carries which again leaves your own carries free. I have had plenty of games where Sion was completely useless because I just ran at the enemy team and my own team kited him to death. No ult means Sion can't do anything while he gets kited, if your team can't kite and kill an ult-less Sion then well your team either sucks or is so far behind that it doesn't matter and any other tank could win them the game

HP Shredders like Vayne and Malzahar are his worst nightmare

And yes Nautilus and Sion are different champions, but this is an example of how another ult can perform the same function as Sion's ult in teamfights, yet is considered "fine"

Silents429May 25, 20151 votes

And yes Nautilus and Sion are different champions, but this is an example of how another ult can perform the same function as Sion's ult in teamfights, yet is considered "fine"

It is considered fine on Nautilus because the rest of his kit isn't anything like Sions.

Naming a small amount of champions that beat him doesn't imply he is fine, I understand he has counters, I understand he has his limits, I don't know why you are jumping to these assumptions. But he excels at owning his lane, jungling, and lockdown, regardless if you can kite him. Even still if you are getting kited and the 4 other team members can't help someone is doing something wrong.

In drawn out fights an ult of his strength and use shouldn't be used twice, and you are right a Sion without his ult doesn't function as well, that is the whole point of this. As of right now Sion players have no reason to try with there ults, and there is no such thing as "Wasting" it. That brief moment of weakness is nearly impossible to capitalize on.

WutsKrakenMay 25, 20151 votes

sigh, ok I see that you're stubborn and simply hate Sion for his strengths.

First off, he does not excel at owning his lane. I've yet to lose to Sion in lane as anyone I've played since his nerfs. E maxing Sions are even easier to deal with than Q-maxers because his E poke is basically nothing

As a jungler, he is strong yes, but so are Gragas and Sejuani, both of whom I'd personally consider stronger lategame from sheer utility. 10k HP Sion is unrealistic

Second, yes his ult is rather short with CDR, but teamfights shouldn't last that long anyways unless both teams are extremely tanky

And third, you don't even need to zone away 4 teammates, you can zone away 2 if you're on the other team.

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScPFTl8Sfhs

Before you say "it's not Sion", yes it's not SION, but he's against a team of many tanks, Chogath Nautilus and Braum

Silents429May 25, 20151 votes

I am not stubborn for disagreeing with you, nor do I hate his strengths.

I am fine for what Sion can do well he just can't do it as well as he does. And it doesn't matter if a team fight "should" last that long the point is that team fights do frequently last over a minute, drawn out fights are pretty common, and Sion should have to actually try making the best use of his ult instead of using it as wreckless as he is able.

I have already seen his videos and know what zoning is and how it works, a tank is failing if he isn't protecting his team, and somehow 3 of them managed to be useless.

But they aren't Sion. A champion that unlike the 3 of those tanks will do much more damage, and has an ult that would have destroyed his backline. Neither, Nautilus, Braum or Cho Gath were going to do anything other then be sponges after the CC was used, while Sion being able to actually do plenty of damage without relying on a shield would have had much different results.

Don't mistaken me for wanting him nerfed hard, I think he does what he does well but he should have more chances for the enemy to beat a Sion for making any mistakes. If a Sion messes up his ult he shouldn't be able to shrug it off like it was no big deal.

Toa of DeathMay 23, 20152 votes

I want whoever did that rework to work on the Cho'Gath rework.

PheroMay 24, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toa of Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hml2aLLz,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-05-23T22:27:22.215+0000)

I want whoever did that rework to work on the Cho'Gath rework.

Chogath QUIET! I need no rework.

FistOfSharkieshaMay 23, 20151 votes

His rework was fantastic but they need to stop buffing him. He was sitting on a 55% win rate when they buffed his ratios further.

AtheosisXMay 23, 201572 votes

{quoted}

His rework was fantastic but they need to stop buffing him. He was sitting on a 55% win rate when they buffed his ratios further.

Huh? They've nerfed him repeatedly.

Beacon 0F LightMay 23, 201520 votes

Pretty sure they've done nothing but nerf him repeatedly ever since his rework launched.

ButthurtMay 23, 20153 votes

No they buffed him shortly after the rework, but he's also received two patches of nerfs since.

junglerboy16May 26, 20151 votes

True this, but they were extremely minor buffs, the only real one being a slight increase to his health per level.

ButthurtMay 31, 20152 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V4.19

This patch Sion recieved pretty decent buffs, with only a small mana cost increase on his E. He recieved more mana cost reductions on his Q and his W (Mana cost on E went up a bit more too though). All the way up to patch 5.5 he recieved buffs on things besides his E. Then he started getting nerfed heavier.