A Plea to Riot - Consider the Alternative

Troy242621··131 votes·5,549 views

Concise "TL;DR" Summary Available At the Bottom

Recently, Riot has been releasing kits that always are overstuffed and possess high mobility. Frequently, they're also generalists, and end up outclassing everything. I intend to propose a counterplan for this philosophy of design. The three pillars for my argument will be as follows; it prevents champions from being outclassed, it is much more enjoyable to play against and iit presents less of a balancing issue and they are more enjoyable to play as. If I can achieve what I hope for, it will make a few more players merely contemplate the idea, because I think it is a logically sound one.

I intend to first prove causation. That is to say, I intend to prove that homogenized generalists are the cause of meta stagnation and champion pool constriction. So, that will be my first undertaking. First, I will clearly define the term.

A generalist for the sake of my argument will be defined as a champion that can fill multiple roles (Not positions) well, and has many tools at their disposal. For example, Lee Sin has mobility, damage, tankiness and high ratios. He has many options at his disposal and can approach situations with many different options. Outclassed will be defined as fulfilling the same purpose in a team composition, but more favorably. Now that definitions have been established, I will present my first argument.

Preventing champions from being outclassed is a tough one. First I will prove causation, using the Jungle as a lens that we will observe this pattern in action. In the jungle, the meta has, for several seasons running, revolved around predominantly Lee Sin and Vi, with an earlier blend of Elise. What they all have in common (For the sake of this statement, imagine Season 3 Elise before she was nerfed) is that they can be built tanky, bursty, bruiser, have mobility and have CC. Hence, you have little reason to pick, say, Nautilus, the CC specialist. Why? Vi has similar CC capacity (Nautilus' ultimate is a targeted knockup, but Vi's is too, but hers also functions as a gapcloser), she has superior mobility, her Q and Nautilus' Q are both skillshot CC (And again, Vi's is a gapcloser but also functions as general mobility in a way that Nautilus' cannot). All of their CC (Aside from Nautilus' passive and slows) ignore Tenacity. Therefore, Nautilus does have more CC overall with his passive snares and slows. But by switching from Nautilus to Vi, you sacrifice that little CC for increased damage, mobility, clearing capability and dueling. You also limit the counterplay available against you, because as a specialist, Nautilus has counterplay that can be consciously and actively used against him. His clear speeds aren't great and his dueling outright sucks. All he has is his ganking pressure and end game initiation and peel, which leaves him vulnerable to abuse in the jungle. This leads me to my next point.

Specialists are healthier to play against is a fairly straightforward concept, well welcomed after the preceding long-winded argument. Specialists, as demonstrated above, are extremely strong in certain areas, but very weak in others. Another example would be Amumu. His initiation and CC are absolutely incredible, but he is a horrible duelist, is blue buff reliant and is very vulnerable to being bullied.This alleviates his early game pressure in exchange for his end game capacity, which can be ACTIVELY abused by enemy players. With Lee Sin and Vi, for examples, they are strong early game. Even stronger at six. End game, they are STILL STRONG, and even if behind have CC to fall back on. God help you if they're ahead. If a specialist is ahead, their particular strength becomes monstrous, but their weaknesses still exist and can be used. In the case of Amumu, avoiding being gathered up in a confined space will limit his effectiveness. Such is also the case with Fiddlesticks, whom is prone to being CCed. Specific trade offs and weaknesses are what outlines a HEALTHY specialist concept. It is not just healthy for the sake of playing against them, but also overall balance for the game.

Specialists are less of a balancing hazard. This is because if they are overbearing, you know precisely what their strength is, and can pinpoint what is over the top. If too weak, perhaps it needs a tone up, or their obvious weakness is simply too exploitable. Perhaps the meta or team comp does not frequently call for their specialty and they aren't unbalanced at all. With generalists, they can fill a variety of niches in a team composition viably, and if ahead, have no weaknesses to exploit, or downfalls in their kit to exploit. In addition, it's more difficult to avoid their effectiveness because of the array of approaches at their disposal. They're a 9,001 trick horse, so to speak. Specialists fill a specific and unique role, and have clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, something generalists sorely lack. Lastly, they are usually possibly to counterpick or banned if a particular specialist will work well against your team comp. This is healthy because it allows FOR STRATEGY in League of Legends, a STRATEGY GAME. It allows for varied picks at varied times, leading to my third point.

It is healthier for game balance. Varied picks prevents meta stagnation, because certain champions synergize well, but if they consist of specialists, have counterpicks and counterplay. It wouldn't be as simple as "Lee Sin does everything a jungler needs and fits into any team comp, I'll pick him!" if it were more about building a specific team comp by picking specialists to fit their needs. Basically this means that generalists are specialists, and their specialty is being a generalist. That would become their role, instead of filling EVERY role. Now, this isn't to say that generalists do not exist, which leads me to my final paragraph.

The change in philosophy should be thus. Being a generalist SHOULD BE their specialty. There is nothing wrong with generalists being in the game. Let me repeat that, generalists can be a healthy part of the game. League of Legends needs them. However, that should be their role. SOMETHING in their kit has to give. They shouldn't be outclassing specialists at their own role, they SHOULDN'T have everything their role could possibly need and they SHOULDN'T be so well-rounded that they lack any significant weakness. While he needs a buff, Gangplank is a great example of the DESIGN of a generalist. His execution isn't flawless, but his design is fairly good. He has a little bit of CC, he has poke, sustain, can avoid CC and has steroids and a global ultimate. He can be a bruiser, tank or burster. If he were balanced a bit better, he would be an ideal generalist design. They CAN WORK, we just need to, as a community, stop accepting the NEW design of generalists.

TLDR/SUMMARY: Generalists, while a necessary part of League of Legends, should have more clearly designed strengths and weaknesses, and conform to a more reasonable design philosophy than Riot currently employs. The most recent incarnation of generalists are unhealthy, and present a hazard to the game's health. Riot should adopt a new stance on generalists to enforce this philosophy. Hence:

Generalists should be specialists, and their specialty is being a generalist, instead of filling every role.

102 Comments

Zazusha66 votes

so what your suggesting is that "Jacks of All Trades" should be "Masters of None"?

Troy24262136 votes

More or less. They compare too favorably to specialists at the present, and considering how little weaknesses they have, it's causing a serious and frustrating problem. That being said, I don't condone neutering them. I think they should be decent picks all of the time, just not God tier all of the time.

There's really no reason to not use the top junglers right now. They can do everything a jungler needs, and there's little in the ways of countering them. Udyr picked? I'll get mobility and CC. Amumu picked? I'll use a control jungler to weaken his early game and scaling. Vi? Well, guess I'll use Lee Sin and preform the exact same role.

Kingsgrave14 votes

{quoted}

More or less. They compare too favorably to specialists at the present, and considering how little weaknesses they have, it's causing a serious and frustrating problem. That being said, I don't condone neutering them. I think they should be decent picks all of the time, just not God tier all of the time.

There's really no reason to not use the top junglers right now. They can do everything a jungler needs, and there's little in the ways of countering them. Udyr picked? I'll get mobility and CC. Amumu picked? I'll use a control jungler to weaken his early game and scaling. Vi? Well, guess I'll use Lee Sin and preform the exact same role.

The Fighter rework really needed to happen and hopefully its Preseason 6 when they do eventually do it.

They need to sit down and pick the specific reason you would pick each and every Bruiser and make sure that each and every Bruiser has specific weaknesses and strengths both in teamcomps and in lane/jungle matchups.

Right now literally every single Bruiser is a Jack of All Trades. Maybe they need to make Bruisers Jack of Many Trades Master of One instead?

Like 6-8 specific things that a Bruiser could possibly ever do and limit each Bruiser to only 3-4 of those things and being a Master at one of those things? Should be able to make each Bruiser a Master of a different trade while also being unique in that combination and mastery.

Zazusha12 votes

there's safe picks, then there's "safe picks"

Safe picks being champs that can survive laning against most opponents, while not guaranteeing getting kills doing so. Nor guaranteeing feeding if countered.

"Safe Picks" are champs like Zed, Leesin, thresh, Ahri(pre-5.3). The ones that can and do win vs champs that counter them or fit in any comp regardless. Not gonna bother Listing J4, he's been above 60% ban rate for weeks.

Why pick mumu jungle when Lee Sin wasn't banned right?

That 'Jack' is quite the 'master' eh?

Major Sparkles2 votes

Why the handyman hate? Have you ever hired a handyman? They're like masters of everything!

Sadistic Cheese7 votes

Handyman J4....well, if we have Battle Bunny Riven, it's only fair...

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

or maybe remaking the jack of all trades to be jack of just one? id rather go with it

Zazusha14 votes

thats the phrase

"Jack of all Trades, Master of none"

If someone fits in most situations, they shouldn't dominate them as well. Good, not Best.

Lee Sin is a Master of all Trades. highest mobility, highest dmg ratios, great jungle clearing, great ganking, Can build Lots of damage or lots of defenses and it yields the same results.

Hell, he can build a Sight stone and not lose killing potential cus of BS ward hopping.

Kingsgrave5 votes

{quoted}

thats the phrase

"Jack of all Trades, Master of none"

If someone fits in most situations, they shouldn't dominate them as well. Good, not Best.

Lee Sin is a Master of all Trades. highest mobility, highest dmg ratios, great jungle clearing, great ganking, Can build Lots of damage or lots of defenses and it yields the same results.

Hell, he can build a Sight stone and not lose killing potential cus of BS ward hopping.

Bruisers should be Jack of Many Trades Master of One

6-8 definable things Bruisers can do

No one bruiser does more than 3-4 of these things and they are Masters of One of those things

Do that for every single Bruiser

Bam good balance and now its more about which one you want to play instead of whichever one is by far the best

Zazusha1 votes

Now thats getting into the dreaded "Fighter Problem".

Kingsgrave4 votes

{quoted}

Now thats getting into the dreaded "Fighter Problem".

You cant get into the Jungle problem without getting into that problem honestly

Nautilus is just as much of a Fighter as Jarvan is So is Sejuani and even Rammus

Tank or otherwise, they all need to be specialized into something

Kingsgrave26 votes

If Generalists are allowed to do mostly everything thats fine If Generalists can do more damage more often under any circumstance thats not fine If Generalists always do kinda sorta okay and your team gives up something for them its fine If Generalists are literally always better to pick than anyone else no matter what and your team loses nothing thats not fine

LeeSin JarvanIVIrelia are Generalists and thats totally fine Both providing better utility, damage, mobility, dueling, laning and clearing than literally every other pick right now and for years is totally not fine

Why does Lee need a shield? Why does Lee need his sustain?

You could easily just make Lee's W castable twice and remove the shield and Iron Will completely and he would still be a good pick, just not as overbearing.

Why does Jarvan need passive Armor and AS? Why does Jarvan need Armor Shred? Why does Jarvan need an AS aura? Why does Jarvan need a slow when he already has terrain, 2 gapclosers and a knockup?

You could easily take away all of these things and Jarvan would still be really useful and still a good generalist

Why does Irelia need passive and active sustain? Why not just limit to one or the other? Why does Irelia need heavy amounts of CC reduction for free? Why does Irelia need a Slow AND a Stun?

You could easily remove or rework all of these things and she would still be just as good, just not as safe.

Generalists should not be safe and better than every pick in the game. They should just be sorta kinda alright no matter what. Never bad and Never great. Currently all 3 are just really really good no matter what. That needs to change.

Squarefighter9 votes

I agree with everything you said except irelia's slow/stun. IMO it's a really interesting ability and she has to think about whether she wants to lay down damage and a slow immediately or hold onto it when she really needs it when it becomes a much better skill.

2 much sauuuce4 votes

The answers are...

Lee doesn't need a shield Lee doesn't need built in sustain

His base damage and AD ratios are way to high to justify needing either of those. Both should be removed.

Jarvan having passive Armor makes sense. He is a tank/fighter. Attack speed shouldn't even be there. Jarvan shouldn't have Armor Shred. Jarvan shouldn't have an AS aura. Jarvan doesn't need a slow.

Again, his base damage and AD ratios are way to high to justify giving him more utility than a standard fare tank.

Irelia doesn't seem so overbearing as Lee and Jarvan. But again, for a "non tank" having CC reduction is ridiculous and should be re-worked.

Since League seems to be past the point of working thematically and mostly concentrating on mechanics and playstyle, all three could use overhauls. In fact a large portion of the champion pool needs overhauls. Riot should really have their team sit down and discuss what champions should do what.

It's funny than a generalist as strong as Lee Sin is allowed to exist in the game as a jungler and not get hit with huge nerfs, but a generalist like Sona in the support role is nerfed to hell.

Hard Penetrator1 votes

You would gut basically every good champion in the game to make game more interesting. I wonder who would like to go as lets say gutted Irelia against top Riven.

Gut Riven?

Ok so now Riven lost her shield and stun. Jax is shitting on basically every top.

Np Jax has not stun and dodge mechanic.

"Cool finally my Top Tryn will kill some things."

Tryn lost his crit chance.

" :( "

This is your idea of making game better?

Paletongue5 votes

Obviously they can't remove mechanics willy nilly. The point is to take out unimportant pieces of overloaded champions.

stuartk1113 votes

This seems to be well thought out. Well done.

I also like the fact that you addressed generalists can still exist, but still need to have weaknesses or compare less favourably to the strengths of specialists (who can have their weaknesses exploited by the generalist if need be). I feel that some champions such as Lee Sin were entirely designed to be generalists, but they turned out to be a little too strong at everything - thus causing a stagnation in jungle champions.

Kingsgrave5 votes

{quoted}

This seems to be well thought out. Well done.

I also like the fact that you addressed generalists can still exist, but still need to have weaknesses or compare less favourably to the strengths of specialists (who can have their weaknesses exploited by the generalist if need be). I feel that some champions such as Lee Sin were entirely designed to be generalists, but they turned out to be a little too strong at everything - thus causing a stagnation in jungle champions.

Well for a while that was the only way to make Bruisers that worked.

XinZhao LeeSin JarvanIV Irelia MonkeyKingNocturnePantheonRenekton were all made in this era

I think Generalists are totally fine, especially for most if not all of them to be Bruisers

I just wish it mattered more which one you chose

The main problem here however, is that these 4 in particular provide the exact same thingsNocturne XinZhao JarvanIV MonkeyKing

Its easy to make these 4 different and unique with changesPantheon Irelia Renekton LeeSin but the aforementioned 4 its a lot harder especially since RekSai already does everything that XinZhao Nocturne want to do in fights and JarvanIV MonkeyKing essentially have the same type of kit and teamfight

stuartk117 votes

{quoted}

Well for a while that was the only way to make Bruisers that worked.

XinZhao LeeSin JarvanIV Irelia MonkeyKingNocturnePantheonRenekton were all made in this era

I think Generalists are totally fine, especially for most if not all of them to be Bruisers

I just wish it mattered more which one you chose

The main problem here however, is that these 4 in particular provide the exact same thingsNocturne XinZhao JarvanIV MonkeyKing

Its easy to make these 4 different and unique with changesPantheon Irelia Renekton LeeSin but the aforementioned 4 its a lot harder especially since RekSai already does everything that XinZhao Nocturne want to do in fights and JarvanIV MonkeyKing essentially have the same type of kit and teamfight

I think that you may have somewhat misinterpreted what it was that I was saying. I'm not hating on generalists at all, I just don't like it when they can match or exceed the abilities of other champions that were designed to specifically do that job. You have pointed out that Rek'sai does everything that Xin Xiao wants to do but better. A lot of other champions are made nearly irrelevant in the current state, such as Skarner, who has pitiful clear speeds and dueling potential, but is supposed to stick to the enemy. However, the idea of keeping the enemy from getting away from you can already be done by Jarvan (Cataclysm) or Lee Sin, while they also have descent clear speeds and excellent dueling potential.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

I think that you may have somewhat misinterpreted what it was that I was saying. I'm not hating on generalists at all, I just don't like it when they can match or exceed the abilities of other champions that were designed to specifically do that job. You have pointed out that Rek'sai does everything that Xin Xiao wants to do but better. A lot of other champions are made nearly irrelevant in the current state, such as Skarner, who has pitiful clear speeds and dueling potential, but is supposed to stick to the enemy. However, the idea of keeping the enemy from getting away from you can already be done by Jarvan (Cataclysm) or Lee Sin, while they also have descent clear speeds and excellent dueling potential.

Yeah but you can't nerf any generalist without just creating more issues.You have to rebalance literally every single one of them all at once in order to create true "which one do I choose" balance. To the point that I think Jack of Many Trades fighters should be all about which particular style of doing that thing, not "who does this thing the best dawg"

There are a long list of people that need to be nerfed before Skarner can even be remotely relevant mostly because Skarner is a skirmisher that doesn't have physical damage or AD scalings on more than half of an ability. Honestly, minus the magic damage I think Skarner is actually in an alright place. If he actually scaled in some way he would be quite the balanced bruiser.

Passive physical Q physical + AD + physical + AD as bonus W health scaling E physical + AD R physical + AD with like 50% live damage

KaisadiIIa3 votes

The problem is that Lee Sin, for example, is not a generalist but a specialist on everything.

WDTOD10 votes

It's people like you that give me hope for this game and community.

Oleandervine5 votes

"Jack of all,master of none. Better than a master of one."

Riot has seriously misinterpreted this quote. It means that a generalist is better than a specialist because he knows a little about everything and can do more things, whereas a specialist is best at one thing and weak at many. This quote does not mean that a jack of all is better than a specialist at his own specialty, however, which seems to the part that Riot has missed.

Knight SoIaire 4 votes

I would also like to add the powerbudget problem which revolwes mainly around immobile champions like darius and mordekaiser the thing is that those champions barely have anything in their kits thats of use for the team, they have their damage their ratios and their tankyness, but barely any crowd controll, barely any utility and 0 mobility

on the other hand champions who are mobile like lee sin jarwan vi, kalista azir ahri bla bla bla the list is like 40% of the overall champions we have if not more

they get to have loads of stuff into their kits that usualy is better than those guys get easy example is ahri vs brand -ahri has good aoe good assasnation on a single target, sustain, insane mobility, single targeted cc -brand has a little better damage, and less powerfull single target cc with a gating mechanic allowing him to use it only in a combo,

ofc the main thing brand competes is damage, but let me show you one situation brand gets a buff, and deals more damage as a compensation for lack of stuff other champions have then he gets nerfed cause he evaporizes stuff and nobody can fight him

numbers cant be the only thing that champion competes into the game cause it reduces the impact of skill and reduces possible interactions with a champ (no meele would be able to fight darius if he still would have a full reset on ult, thats why he was nerfed) so all of our champions get similar stats for their class and thats good for the ballance since it makes players rely more on the proper use of their kits than stats

in the end this means that some champions do straight out more than others without realy losing anything, while others have their kits kinda stripped out of stuf and dont compete that much to the game

also there is the thematic design problem tied to this why is lee sin a nimble fighter strong enough to kick you miles away? why isnt someone as strong as mordekaiser or daius capable of giving you a concussion with their blows?

in the end crowd controll is an expression of pure force that subdues others, like knocking someone up or smashing him into the ground, that aplies even for mages while mobility is an expression of evasiveness and precision, it fits playstyles that rely on dodging and being opportunistic

those 2 characteristics usualy exclude eachother (bodybuilders arent the best runners, while good runners cant lift tonns) but in some cases riot just gives one champion both traits

in the end cc and mobility, the 2 ultimate ways of compeeting into a game were given at random to our champions making some have nothing and some have everything

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6qPWdyT,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-15T16:21:25.353+0000)

I would also like to add the powerbudget problem which revolwes mainly around immobile champions like darius and mordekaiser the thing is that those champions barely have anything in their kits thats of use for the team, they have their damage their ratios and their tankyness, but barely any crowd controll, barely any utility and 0 mobility

on the other hand champions who are mobile like lee sin jarwan vi, kalista azir ahri bla bla bla the list is like 40% of the overall champions we have if not more

they get to have loads of stuff into their kits that usualy is better than those guys get easy example is ahri vs brand -ahri has good aoe good assasnation on a single target, sustain, insane mobility, single targeted cc -brand has a little better damage, and less powerfull single target cc with a gating mechanic allowing him to use it only in a combo,

ofc the main thing brand competes is damage, but let me show you one situation brand gets a buff, and deals more damage as a compensation for lack of stuff other champions have then he gets nerfed cause he evaporizes stuff and nobody can fight him

numbers cant be the only thing that champion competes into the game cause it reduces the impact of skill and reduces possible interactions with a champ (no meele would be able to fight darius if he still would have a full reset on ult, thats why he was nerfed) so all of our champions get similar stats for their class

in the end this means that some champions do straight out more than others without realy losing anything, while others have their kits kinda stripped out of stuf and dont compete that much to the game

also there is the thematic design problem tied to this why is lee sin a nimble fighter strong enough to kick you miles away? why isnt someone as strong as mordekaiser or daius capable of giving you a concussion with their blows?

in the end cc and mobility, the 2 ultimate ways of compeeting into a game were given at random to our champions making some have nothing and some have everything

Power budgets an odd one.

Its actually less taxing on a power budget if you give a Champion moderate damage and moderate to high mobility than to give them high damage and limited mobility. The more and more I thought about it the more it makes sense.

How do you stop Darius from nuking you and CCing you to death? He fights it perfectly and you sorta half ass avoid him. How do you stop Jarvan from nuking you and CCing you an ideal scenario where he isnt OP as fuck number wise? He has to play it perfectly and ideally you half ass fight him

If Darius Q, W, R and passive were all reduced by 40% in damage and scaling but his E was a dash forward that flipped people behind him, he would instantly be much better than on live and suddenly become LCS viable and whatnot while also being a lot more balanced in general. Isn't that crazy?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

you can go about it from both ways

from one darius is in a bad spot because all of his powerbudget is in damage so the bonus damage he gets from being a damage focused champion is reduced from the other side the most of our champions is broken because they get to have good mobility, good cc and damage that allows them to be a threat to daius on top of other stuff their kit might have, so they get loads of things with no reducing factor

Its actually less taxing on a power budget if you give a Champion moderate damage and moderate to high mobility than to give them high damage and limited mobility. The more and more I thought about it the more it makes sense.

you count damage as part of the powerbudget, and i dont thats why it makes no sence to me if riot makes an adc that loses all mobility, all cc, all utility, basicaly everything for increasing his autos damage to the point where he almoust oneshots people then that champion basicaly has no interaction, anyone who gets in his range dies and they dont get to do anything with it on the other hand insanely tanky champion wouldnt have damage to not get ignored

thats why all champions get quite equalized damage and survivability accorging to their role when i speak about powerbudget i mean mainly cc,utility mobility and stuff like that, because unlike owerly high numbers it doesnt kill the interaction

if we take only that into account then guy like darius has barely any power in his kit besides numbers, while lee sin has insane loads of power in his kit on top of numbers

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6qPWdyT,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-02-15T20:50:55.133+0000)

you can go about it from both ways

from one darius is in a bad spot because all of his powerbudget is in damage so the bonus damage he gets from being a damage focused champion is reduced from the other side the most of our champions is broken because they get to have good mobility, good cc and damage that allows them to be a threat to daius on top of other stuff their kit might have, so they get loads of things with no reducing factor

you count damage as part of the powerbudget, and i dont thats why it makes no sence to me if riot makes an adc that loses all mobility, all cc, all utility, basicaly everything for increasing his autos damage to the point where he almoust oneshots people then that champion basicaly has no interaction, anyone who gets in his range dies and they dont get to do anything with it on the other hand insanely tanky champion wouldnt have damage to not get ignored

thats why all champions get quite equalized damage and survivability accorging to their role when i speak about powerbudget i mean mainly cc,utility mobility and stuff like that, because unlike owerly high numbers it doesnt kill the interaction

if we take only that into account then guy like darius has barely any power in his kit besides numbers, while lee sin has insane loads of power in his kit on top of numbers

Darius has no power in his kit because it's taken up by raw damage potential. If he lost half but gained mobility his power would go up because he gains the ability to deal the damage and the enemy gains the ability to avoid his damage in ways beyond "just don't get near him"

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

you just listed here the only reason i dont count damage towards the powerbudget the "don't get near him" being the only counterplay

its a suicide ballance wise to allow champions like darius get the damage they should get given their kits lacking anything else

thats why i call darius straight out less powerfull than other champions, becuase his damage output needs to be ballanced, so his kit's main direction gets killed without compensation

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6qPWdyT,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-15T23:11:26.891+0000)

you just listed here the only reason i dont count damage towards the powerbudget the "don't get near him" being the only counterplay

its a suicide ballance wise to allow champions like darius get the damage they should get given their kits lacking anything else

thats why i call darius straight out less powerfull than other champions, becuase his damage output needs to be ballanced, so his kit's main direction gets killed without compensation

What do you give him if you take away damage? Just making him tankier doesn't really solve any of his real problems. Just increasing his MS gains gives him the same problems Volibear and Garen have.

Troy2426218 votes

Power budget violation is inextricably linked to this issue, to be sure. The generalists that are abusive right now don't really adhere to any budget outline.

SecretAgentHulk4 votes

(Caveat: I play normals, so my counterpicking is rather weak, although I've learned a decent bit of theory between bad matchups in normals and also lurking Boards.)

Would adopting this philosophy lead to a LoL where games are won in champ select? If all champions have weaknesses and counters, shouldn't the counters just be picked by the second-pick team, who then would have the advantage? Or do generalists (even the weaker kind you propose) help to balance the game in that regard?

Good post btw. You articulated the problem without flaming, and then logically worked towards an understandable solution. It's refreshing.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

(Caveat: I play normals, so my counterpicking is rather weak, although I've learned a decent bit of theory between bad matchups in normals and also lurking Boards.)

Would adopting this philosophy lead to a LoL where games are won in champ select? If all champions have weaknesses and counters, shouldn't the counters just be picked by the second-pick team, who then would have the advantage? Or do generalists (even the weaker kind you propose) help to balance the game in that regard?

Good post btw. You articulated the problem without flaming, and then logically worked towards an understandable solution. It's refreshing.

Picks should be decided by advantage and comp rather than "this beats that which loses to that"

Ideally anything should be able to beat and lose to anything Right now Bruisers only really exist to be the best and they need to be specialized in something

Troy2426214 votes

The thing with this is, and it is a very good point, that would be the case in extreme examples of specialty where one directly counters the other. For instance, a team of Malphite top, Yasuo mid, Nami support is clearly a hard engage comp, and if facing a disengage comp, they'll have a hard time. But, that's the case now. Generalists do exist, and leave it largely a skill match-up.

A lot of specialists don't end up hardcountering other specialists, and you can also ban out your hard counters if building such a polarized composition such as that.

Lastly, it's another example of strategy. If you are playing really any strategy game, you can't just use the same piece, character, champion or what have you in every given context. You pick what, in this case your team composition needs. While it can definitely impact the game, champion select and banning IS part of the game. Also, generalists and early game match-ups (Who wins lane? Which jungler contributes more? Who gets more objectives early game?) dramatically changes the game. Power curves are at different levels (Early/mid/late) and can all contribute to which specialties are going to hardcounter others.

An end game hard initiate comp may beat a lot of things, but if they get slammed early game and are in the hole several dragons, several towers and a handful of kills, that matters a lot less now. It's also theory versus practice. A lot of specialties have counterplay to prevent them from getting max effectiveness. In the above example, don't all group up in a confined space and don't have poor vision control.

Red October4 votes

This post is everything Riot has ever asked for in quality, respectful, well-thought-out input on the boards. Definitely deserves a Red response!

/waitsexpectantly

Troy2426213 votes

I'm 90% sure that this issue isn't specific to jungling, but since that's what I do most, I decided to use that as a lens to observe the phenomena, so to speak. I'll leave it to someone more experienced to confirm that it is a game-wide problem as I suspect is the case.

Kingsgrave5 votes

{quoted}

I'm 90% sure that this issue isn't specific to jungling, but since that's what I do most, I decided to use that as a lens to observe the phenomena, so to speak. I'll leave it to someone more experienced to confirm that it is a game-wide problem as I suspect is the case.

Bruisers tend to go wherever they can be the most Jackofalltradesy.

When Top Lane shifted to more of a variety role, with an almost 50/50 split of Ranged and Melee with various classes besides just Tank or Bruiser, they moved into the Jungle since Riot was balancing more and more towards initiators and skirmishers in that role.

Honestly its kinda perfect in an ironic sort of way. Riot decided not to work on the Bruiser overhaul and then they just destroyed jungle's balance. Now hopefully in S6 they fix it.

Troy2426214 votes

Given that they keep pumping out highly mobile champions, I'm not entirely sure that their overall policy will change. Surely individual Rioters have taken notice, but changing a company's balancing standpoint is no easy prospect. They've also promised positive jungle changes in almost every single season, and the people who'v held their breath have long since died.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Given that they keep pumping out highly mobile champions, I'm not entirely sure that their overall policy will change. Surely individual Rioters have taken notice, but changing a company's balancing standpoint is no easy prospect. They've also promised positive jungle changes in almost every single season, and the people who'v held their breath have long since died.

Its honestly just a case of promising to fix the engine without changing the oil or even realizing they needed to do that first

The fighter rework needed to happen before the Jungle changes not the other way around

Highly mobile champions is honestly fine as long as they dont do everything. They are honestly easier to balance than most other types of champions because they have some amount of fuckup potential on the player's end and also on the opposing end. Immobile champions typically have combos or patterns that are 100% reliant on their ability to pull it off under 1 specific circumstance like Cho'Gath or Darius.

Reducing Darius damage and scaling across the board by 40% but giving his E a gapcloser that tossed people behind him would instantly make him balanced and viable and Im honestly sure of it.

Reducing Garen damage and scaling across the board by 40% but giving tripling his Q MS bonus and even halving the silence would make him instantly balanced and viable.

Just increasing Garen's tankiness or Darius damage or whatever would make both just more low elo pub stompy and then they would get nerfed again.

xSay3 votes

The Gangplank example was great. I agree with most of what you said, and I do believe one of the main problems is the mobility creep.

Of the original 40 champions only a handful had a dash, jump, or gap closer.. Off the top of my head : Kass, Jax, Shaco, Tristana, TF (ult), Trynd, Master Yi, WW.. anyone else?

Three of those eight are on ultimates. I am sure there may be 1 or 2 more I missed but considering that over 75% of the initial champions DID NOT have a gap closer.. now lets look at the last 40 and those who have a dash, jump or gap closer: Rek'sai, Kalista, Azir, Gnar, Braum, Yasuo, Lucian, Aatrox, Lissandra, Zac, Vi, Zed, Elise, Kha, Rengar, Diana, Jayce, Hecarim, Fiora, Sejuani, Ahri, Volibear, Fizz, Shyvana, Graves. That is over 60% of the past 40.

However, Riot has really slowed down in making champions--if we just look at the last ten (Aatrox 2 years ago, April 2013), nine of them have gap closers. 90% riot.. 90%

Someone should make a post about this--or maybe someone already has.

ThePlasticSpork3 votes

Riot has pretty much admitted that they recognize this as a problem (refer to what they have called "The Fighter Problem" in the past), in that several fighters are extremely overloaded without clearly defined weaknesses, which also results in pretty much every other class needing to be just as overloaded to compete. This goes way back to the days when Ashe was untouchable by melees so Irelia happened, but then nobody could fight Irelia, so suddenly all these champions that we have now happened.

Why they know this is a problem but continue to release such fighters (Rek'Sai) is so far beyond me it's ridiculous, but they do know it's a problem. Whether that makes it better or worse is up to you, I suppose.

That fighter project they were talking about is not going to happen for a long time, if ever, though.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Recently, Riot has been releasing kits that always are overstuffed and possess high mobility. Frequently, they're also generalists, and end up outclassing everything.

I do think generalist bruisers are a serious problem, particularly in the jungle.

However, I don't think this is a recent design problem. Most of the excessively general bruiser kits come from the Xin Zhao era. In terms of modern League design, you can only really point to Vi, and even she's over two years old. Nobody talks about Aatrox or Zac that way, and while Gnar is pretty overbearing, that's just a tuning problem; his kit has plenty of weaknesses to work with for the balance team.

Troy2426212 votes

Oh it's nothing new. I've just gotten tired of Riot perpetuating it, and I'm hoping that they will at least consider changing some of the top offenders, particularly because it appears I'm not the only one fed up with it.

If it weren't for my love of the game, I wouldn't even care enough to complain. That's the worst part about it. This is all we, as a community, can do.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Oh it's nothing new. I've just gotten tired of Riot perpetuating it, and I'm hoping that they will at least consider changing some of the top offenders, particularly because it appears I'm not the only one fed up with it.

If it weren't for my love of the game, I wouldn't even care enough to complain. That's the worst part about it. This is all we, as a community, can do.

I just wish there was another moba with better design philosophies that wasn't a weird perspective or stuck in 2004

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I do think generalist bruisers are a serious problem, particularly in the jungle.

However, I don't think this is a recent design problem. Most of the excessively general bruiser kits come from the Xin Zhao era. In terms of modern League design, you can only really point to Vi, and even she's over two years old. Nobody talks about Aatrox or Zac that way, and while Gnar is pretty overbearing, that's just a tuning problem; his kit has plenty of weaknesses to work with for the balance team.

Honestly gnar and Aatrox are just as overloaded as xin is. They both do far more than they should in order to function.

Raptamei2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly gnar and Aatrox are just as overloaded as xin is. They both do far more than they should in order to function.

Aatrox is a thematic mess but he needs all the cc or he would be useless.

DadSav2 votes

Does anyone else think this could possibly be due to having too many champions? I think it would be really hard to balance 60 champions, much less twice that number.

hobomann22 votes

exactly its like

hey whats nautilus's down/up sides?

hits like a pillow,very slow,slow clear speed,easily counter-gankable early BUUT can lock you down for a day and amazing ganker

now what about lee sin?

uuuuuuuuh

Troy2426212 votes

He's a defensive utility support jungler to be sure. Fantastic ganks to help the lanes early game, great teamfight intiiation end game, can peel for the adc very well (Even if he ults to initiate) and can play both an offensive and defensive role.

His damage is awful, his clear speeds aren't great, he's one of the absolute WORST duelists and he is dependent on his team. His strengths obviously synergize, but so too does his weaknesses. Poor clear speeds means you're prone to counterjunglers, and poor dueling means you can't do much without help to stop them.

If that's not enough, he has innate counterplay. His Q, Passive and E are all avoidable, and escaping the range of R prevents strong followup. If you kept him behind early game, or Hell even if you don't he just won't be that oppressive drag to fight against that everyone hates. He's fun and fills his role.

WeFlyNoLie2 votes

This was incredibly refreshing to read. Not often do you get a well thought out post that critically analyzes the underlying issues of this game.

Usually its all "QQ J4 OP LCS BIG PLAYS RITO PLZ".

Thanks for this and I totally agree. I've seen somewhere else on the forums but I can't recall which post that made the Gangplank argument, and it is a good one. Gangplank is literally the definition of what a generalist should be, but could use better execution. He is a "balanced" champion.

I really hope this post doesn't go ignored, because this is what Riot should be paying attention to. Critical analysis from its players that is actually coherent. I'd really like to see them address the overloaded fighter kit issue, but I feel like it will continue to go ignored because they believe it will cause too much of a backlash from players who want their overloaded champions and nothing else. Obviously negativity is not something they want but they're going to have to learn to endure it if they want a healthier game. Honestly, would it really be that much worse than it is now?

People will continue to play and adjust but its something that needs to be done. I think they need to take a step back and seriously decide whether they want to continue the releases of these overloaded champions that continually make their earlier champions outdated (or in more serious cases, obsolete) or to seriously address this issue and make some big changes that people aren't going to like (at first) to specific champions to bring the game to a healthier balance.

Thanks for this, OP. Great read and I really hope it doesn't go ignored because that would really make me lose a lot of respect for the people who work on this game that I so much love. I don't want to stop playing this game because I get so much flak for not playing what is considered the best and the most consistent. Its very frustrating.

Troy2426212 votes

I certainly share your passion for the game, and also hope that they will address the issue. I'm not the first to bring this up, and I won't be the last. I just tried to elaborate on the philosophy of why it should be imperative to prioritize it, because so many issues stem from poor design.

Really appreciate that you took the time to write that, it's nice to see others that care about the game that much. Hopefully Riot will listen to us, and if not, I'm sure I won't be the last person to write something like this.

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