Pyke is the only assassin that actually works as a balanced assassin

DeusVult·Jul 3, 2018·122 votes·23,209 views

He doesnt have ton of waveclear or AoE damage. He cannot get tanky by building tankier items if he gets ahead, he will always be squishy and be able to be targetted by the enemy team.

He cannot 100-0 someone unless they are either A. Alone and squishy or B. He is super fed and lands his whole kit.

Lastly, even if he is fed, he still has a hard time diving into a large fight to target 1 champ, such as an ADC, support or mage. He needs to wait for the right time when he can go in and begin to use his ult execute to start changing a fight. Also, his engage is his disengage. So once he commits, he can't skip out 2 seconds later, giving his enemies the ability to react.

Overall as an assassin, Pyke fits what an assassin should be better than any other assassin.

158 Comments

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 3, 201839 votes

You're quite right. He is balanced because he actually needs to land abilities to deal any kind of damage unlike some Assassins who just point to click to deal damage...

(E) (Q) (Q) (R, Passive, Q) (R, E) (Q) (R)

Additionally he is balanced by the fact that his main damage is focused by executing people. He fit's the profile of High Risk High Reward more than the rest of the mentioned above because if Pyke misses something he is an open target and it's over, he has no escape.

He is in a position all of the time to save his E for engage or for disengage and he cannot use it for both because of the non scalling cooldown that is quite long-ish.

The others above kill someone and are able to...

(R) Away, to get back to almost full health. (E) Away, while being untargetable. (R, E) Away, while being invisible. (W) Heal & Cleanse if stunned. (W) Back or R & W away. (R) Back after a full combo with no range restriction.

ShablagooJul 5, 20181 votes

You literally prove that you have no idea what your actually taking about. Rengar kills you with his passive because he lands all of his abilites to recieve the passice full ferocity, talon has to hit his w he will never kill you with just a r, zed has to being either autoing the whole time after his r or has to atleast his you with a q and e in most cases both to fully oneshot you, leblanc has to hit you with a q and another q along with a w to one shot you, for fizz he has to hit you with a r,w, and q e is mostly used to get in close or used as a escape afterward.

Also why is it that people think that assassins are divers, the reason assassins are considered high risk high reward, is for two reason one being they are squishy every assassin is squishy unless they build otherwise and two if they fall behind they will be useless for the rest of the game. Lastly the reason they are classified as assassins in the first place is because they have a escape, pykes mobility is a engage as well as escape. For rengar his double w which is were he gets the cleanse which requires him to hit everything as well is used as a escape his he falls his asssassination. Also if they fail the assassination, which is actually a third point of why they are considered high risk high reward, is because hey are useless without their ult in most cases, if they fail to assassinate in teamfights they are useless for the rest of it and are just easy targets. They can also fail to escape as well getting caught by hard cc.

The fact that you got upvoted proves to me that most people dont even understand what assassins are and are just butt hurt because they lost to them in lane. The reason assassins are doing well is becuase early game is so prevalent and early game dmg is high as well. It has nothing to do with their basic designs.

I would prefer if idiots like you and the rest of the people who upvoted you would just stop posting because its because of you we got these failed assassins reworks in the first place, rengar rework reverted, leblanc rework reverted. They where failures, and it all stemmed from the fact that low elo players didnt know how to stay with their team, check the mini map, and understand basics of the game.

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 6, 20182 votes

I will not argue with you on this but I will just point out a few points that I will leave you to think about...

Assassin's aren't hard to play (there's a difference between knowing how to play a champion and finding a way to play the champion to the highest efficiency)
They aren't "High Risk High Reward" (When they have things like look at my mentioned list, where's the risk if when you burst down someone and their team tries to catch you, you can just dash away or simply out-run them with your usually higher base Movement Speed.
All of the points you made about Assassins missing abilities never would happen (Talon can Q and W, Rengar can E mid Passive Jump and W when close to someone, Leblanc has a POINT TO CLICK Q which she CANNOT miss hitting by any circumstances unless you become untargetable which isn't a common status that all champions have)

So if you're calling us all idiots, doesn't that make you one instead? (That's how the saying goes anyway).

ShablagooJul 6, 20182 votes

Great so let me refute your points and you arent going to argue because you are wrong

Point click abilities or skills shots are not valid descriptions in gauging whether a champions is hard to play to not. Katarina is an example of this most of her abilities are point click yet she has a extremely high skill cap, the same goes for zed, rengar is also a champion. Also yes it is true, thats why playing some champions to the highest efficiency makes them seem like they are op when its just the player. I dont see how that furthers your point?
Again this is what makes them assassins, what would differentiate them from a diver if they didnt have a escape. Also do you understand that concept at all or are you just throwing it out? You get that there are high returns if you have higher risks. For all assassins, if you dont kill your target what will you be able to do for the rest of the teamfight. For rengar if he uses his ult fails to kill the target and runs away you lose the teamfight, because he will be useless for the rest of it unless he has bushes. If Zed has no ult he is near useless in the teamfight as well. Assassins are also melee attackers who are squishy as well, one wrong engage with cc means your dead. Is that not a risk? Just because the person has mobility doesnt mean they are not exposed to risks.
And your point was about how pyke had to land all his abilites to actually deal dmg, you also pick and choose your example, one fizz can miss his ult, zed can miss his q's in fact both, Leblanc can miss her w and e, talon can miss his w, and rengar can miss his e. They have skillshots they just have the ability to get in close and use them. Regardless of if they are skill shots or point click if they use their entire kit on you you should die. Also Leblanc will never kill you with just both q's, unless you are low, in fact no assassin can kill with just their ults or one ability unless they are low.

You are an idiot because you dont understand what skill cap is nor do you get what balance is. I no cases are assassins broken, because of their kits. It is the meta and the amount of dmg in the game. Early game being important+ solo carrying being strong + high early game dmg = assassins being stronger.

koshkyraJul 3, 201813 votes

Yep. Only assassin who takes actual effort/strategy and has counterplay. Thats why he is underperforming, because every other assassin just dumps their kit on an enemy and then gets out instantly with no counterplay.

AmazoXJul 3, 201811 votes

Now play Pyke as an Assassin at Mid lane and tell me how you're gonna ever win?

DeusVultJul 3, 201819 votes

which is why he is the most balanced assassin

the whole concept of assassins being able to 100-0 someone the vast majority of the times they try it is broken, in terms of gameplay mechanics. It doesnt promote counterplay or give their opponent the option to "outplay" them.

Also, assassins having AoE doesnt make sense. In the same note, assassins having high single target damage but having enough aoe to waveclear effectively gives them no downsides. In S1-2, most if not all assassins had HORRIBLE waveclear. That was their downside. You could pick them, but the enemy could just outpush you and then you would have to farm under tower, or give up cs if you wanted to roam. Counterplay for their lane opponent, forcing the assassin to make a call of what they wanted to do. Now assassins just waveclear faster than most mages or other mids, and then roam. Their opponents cannot counter-roam because they will 100% die if they find a wild Zed in the jungle on the way to save botlane. (which is how it should happen)

What I'm saying is this: assassins currently don't have a downside in terms of gameplay mechanics. most of them have waveclear, high single target damage, and 1 or more escape mechanics. Which means that they never have to make a real decision that has a downside for them. They can either push mid and then roam, trying to get kills on the strong side of their map, using escapes to dodge tower damage during a dive, or they can try to get a kill mid against their opponent. Their opponents never have the option to make the calls. The assassins make the calls, and their opponents have to adjust to them

JohnnyNeverSinsJul 3, 20189 votes

Actually an assassin should be able to 100-0 someone,you know,he is an assassin not a fighter or a **bruiser ** to me he is a worst version of rengar.

Weiss GuertenaJul 4, 20188 votes

An assassin (or any champion for that matter) should absolutely not be able to 100-0 a target unconditionally. If you catch someone alone and/or are fed out of your ass so you can gib them in the middle of their team, then it's fair. But if your target is healthy and minds their positioning by keeping close to their tank or enchanter (whose purpose is protecting someone from getting killed in the first place) then you shouldn't be able to dive in and get out with a kill.

If assassins were able to 100-0 a squishy without question why would anyone ever play something that isn't a tank or an assassin?

V3RAJul 4, 20181 votes

if the assassin goes in and kill the squishy then what if the tank and the rest of the team doing? just watching him take the kill and leave?

Weiss GuertenaJul 4, 20187 votes

There needs to be either a reasonable kill window and/or a warning that an assassin is coming for their target. With recent damage creep the former is a rare sight - so yes, if an assassin is able to jump on someone, dump their 100-0 combo in split-second and jump out then it's hard to do something other than watch. Pyke is a (not so) living example that an assassin can have both those kinds of counterplay and still work.

Fízz v2Jul 3, 20187 votes

He cannot get tanky by building tankier items if he gets ahead, he will always be squishy and be able to be targetted by the enemy team.

https://i.gyazo.com/6b0643e7204935b1203e93b84532aba2.png U sure about that? heh

King BraumJul 3, 201827 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPQ6hkqr,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-03T18:33:31.770+0000)

https://i.gyazo.com/6b0643e7204935b1203e93b84532aba2.png U sure about that? heh

yes... because of his passive.

Fízz v2Jul 3, 20184 votes

180+ armor is still pretty tanky tho, especially since a level 14 Pyke has 200 more base HP than Zed, which is half a item 3071

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20183 votes

they nerfed his base damage tho to force him to build more ad

My Waifu VanillaJul 4, 20182 votes

Except they still never hit the root of the problem which is his passive. His passive is still close enough to gold efficient there is next to zero reason not to buy more healthy support items that actually keep you alive since they all come with armor/mr which aren't turned off by your passive. I can't think of a single reason not to buy Knight's Vow. It gives you literally everything you want and also inflates your health pool in fights from the healing you get.

Yes, a Pyke with a lot of resists DOES get punished by true damage, but despite the boards opinion, true damage STILL mainly comes from top lane and the conqueror rune and you still have a ridiculously high base health that making all of your armor purchases only 80% effective against ONE person is still worth it for the rest of the cast to tickle you and your 200+ armor (66% damage reduction means you have an effective health pool of like 6000 later in the game which is IN THE REALM of most tanks). This may change with the micro patch buffing ADCs, but I still don't think it will change much since Caitlyn can't exactly run you down and she has better people to be shooting.

King BraumJul 3, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPQ6hkqr,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T19:07:17.457+0000)

180+ armor is still pretty tanky tho, especially since a level 14 Pyke has 200 more base HP than Zed, which is half a

yes but without propper health stats from items you can never properly tank anything, you'd either be weak to mages, fighters, or if you're itemization is especially weak. both. Pyke can build tanky to help him but can never really realy on tank items.

webstar1995Jul 3, 20186 votes

E, basic, quick Q, R. ONE SHOT love it

RainXBladeJul 3, 201852 votes

At least leave us when some context behind that like:

Was he ahead?
Was he with someone?
Were you alone or with your support?
What were Pyke's items during that situation?
What were the damage numbers?

You don't just type in "insert assassin name here" one-shotted me and expect to get upvotes the second people see that.

rtbf221651412Jul 3, 201834 votes

{quoted}

At least leave us when some context behind that like:

Was he ahead?

Was he with someone?

Were you alone or with your support?

What were Pyke's items during that situation?

What were the damage numbers?

You don't just type in "insert assassin name here"** one-shotted** me and expect to get upvotes the second people see that.

Well actually...

RainXBladeJul 3, 20183 votes

I know what you mean, and you ain't wrong. Most posts in the boards are like that nowadays, like how people are still complaining about Zed and Leb still being oppressive to deal with and their damage still being too high.

I just tend to disagree because some assassins still have some form of counterplay, like Pyke having virtually no disengage when he goes in and Ekko having his damage being telegraphed and easy to avoid.

big boi edriJul 3, 20181 votes

Pretty sure I saw a thread just recently talking ab Zed pressing R, missing every single ability and one shotting due to duskblade.

It received many, many upvotes.

GikiJul 4, 20182 votes

I saw ur thread too. goddamn you rant a lot too

big boi edriJul 4, 20181 votes

your comment is irrelevant and makes no sense?

I made a rant post, ok? Not sure what that has to do with bringing up a post about assassins that had no context to it.

GikiJul 7, 20181 votes

How is it irrelevant when its true lmao. I know it has no context to this post but a I wanted to mention the truth about you and that is the fact that you rant a lot. Is it compulsory to comment something related to the context ? Nah right ?

big boi edriJul 7, 20181 votes

I made 1 rant post in my entire posting history? That has nothing to do with this post or what I posted.

So a). No, I dont rant a lot. And b). You're a fucking idiot.

GikiJul 8, 20181 votes

a) You're a fucking moron b) Pretty sure u rant like a bitch in your games too

When did I say this has anything to do with your post. I'm just commenting what I wanna, related or not.

big boi edriJul 8, 20181 votes

Ah ok, so you're just a dumb ass.

Chrome ShinigamiJul 3, 20185 votes

Maybe its an unpopular opinion but I think assassins should be able to 100-0 you in 1-2 shots, if not what are they good for. Alot of people want assassins to be abled to be countered by anyone, but if you're a squishy with no mobility or invincibility an assassin should be able to easily kill you at any time. What exactly do you want an assassin to do? Why should an assassin need a team to help kill an ADC (pyke is technically a support so he doesn't really count).

Though I do agree damage is a little high at the moment in general, an assassin shouldn't be able to solo kill a tank at late game.

AMADEUSdotEXEJul 4, 20183 votes

They should be able to solo kill them if they play their cards right. One shotting them no though. The absolute last thing we need is another tank meta and I'm pretty sure non tank players arent too happy getting outscaled early, mid, and late by tanks.

xxxDogmanxxxJul 3, 20185 votes

This is why Riot doesn't listen to the boards. Pyke sitting at 47% winrate and getting called "balanced". Some people in the comments are also still complaining about his damage and when statistically, Pyke does less damage than most normal SUPPORTS in the game, let alone assassins. And the people who point out Pyke's very valid and obvious flaws get downvoted.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 4, 20185 votes

The damage amount can not be used as an argument. As most supports have some way to harass the opponent. Pyke is all or nothing, when he does go in he usually 100-0 some one, where as most other supports slowly widdle targets down. Causing the damage chart to be schewed.

SaibboJul 3, 20183 votes

Umh what about the part where he take some damage, he presses W and go inv, comes back 5 sec later with again full HP :/

Coyote LaughingJul 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Umh what about the part where he take some damage, he presses W and go inv, comes back 5 sec later with again full HP :/

Then he used that to disengage instead of engaging. As with a different scenario he can use his W to go invisible and engage on a target. Also Pyke, unlike Talon, leaves tells about his presence being nearby while stealthed. Those shark dorsal fins aren't just there for show. You can actually feasibly follow him if you can maintain the shark motif around your character until you can see past his camouflage stealth.

SaibboJul 4, 20182 votes

talon stealth is way shorter than pyke's W and also it's obvious when talon uses R because there's a big ass circle of blades?

LeBlanc RoseJul 4, 20183 votes

Huh.

Though giant rotating daggers would be a giveaway.

Guess not.

SekzcJul 4, 20183 votes

Assassins are out of control but Riot is trash and wont do anything about it

GrReaper96Jul 4, 20183 votes

I could say Katarina is also quite balanced as an assassin. Unless shes super fed, the enemy can easily play around her daggers, her main source of damage. She cant just leap in and faceroll and expect to get a kill. She needs to play it so the enemy cant dodge her very telegraphed skills. While she can do a lot in a teamfight, she relies on her allies to set it up for hr, else she'll get bursted down in seconds.

Sex With AnnieJul 4, 20182 votes

They need to buff his damage and nerf his safety. For a champ that can sentence you to death with one Q, too many times can he butcher his entire combo just to get away with his w's movespeed. Either his E needs to half its distance halved if it's faced away from enemies or his W needs to be cancelled if he's hit during it.

Coyote LaughingJul 4, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lewd Ripe Trap,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPQ6hkqr,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-07-04T00:21:13.704+0000)

His E needs to half its distance halved if it's faced away from enemies.

So what you want for his E is for it to go from 550 to 275 for his dash range when disengaging? The equivalent of 2.2x the range of a Nasus's auto attack range (125)? Seems awfully harsh for a nerf, don't you think? Even Aatrox from his rework has a 300 dash range and people complain that is too short.

Somebody Love MeJul 4, 20182 votes

Evelynn is a good example too. And unlike Pyke, she doesn't have two methods of mobility/escape, while also having two forms of hard cc. She just has one.

Her hard cc gives plenty of warning, and her escape is also most of her damage, so she has to decide how to use it.

LeBlanc RoseJul 4, 20182 votes

Barely any assassins have more than 1 escape...

BârdJul 3, 20181 votes

Nope. He's not a proper assassin.

Unless he's incredibly ahead, he can't burst somebody down. He might be able to take half of a squishy's HP, and then he has to auto them into R range. Seeing as his DPS is trash and he's squishy as hell, he can't kill on his own without getting himself killed.

On top of that, he has to burn his W and E to get in position, meaning he can't get out.

He's the only assassin that can't kill people on his own and then get out, which are the two criteria for somebody being an assassin. That's why he's played as either a JG or support, because he can't do much on his own but he can be a major impact with some help.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 3, 201824 votes

You are quite literally missing the point lol.

Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to 100-0 a target UNLESS they are Fed.
Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to get in and out in the blink of an eye.
Assassins SHOULD NOT have some of the best wave clear in the game.

kurnubegoJul 3, 20187 votes

When there is little point in assassins if assassin can't assassinate the target. If you want to get rid of entire class of champions when state it like that.
Yes they should. And that's main feature which differentiates Assassins from Divers. In turn they get nuked just as fast when CC'ed.
They don't. What they have is some waveclear which can be useful in lanining phase and not to waste time while farming side lines. They can't however, defend vs siege. Remove that bit of wavelcear and you will need to buff their pvp to keep them relevant as they won't be effective at roaming anymore.

Weiss GuertenaJul 4, 201812 votes

There is little point in tanks if they can't tank the damage. I propose buffing all tank items to the point where they can shrug of 10 seconds of focus fire from an entire opposing team.

See how beyond stupid it would be balance a class solely around their name? They are called assassins, so what? That doesn't mean they should be able to unconditionally assassinate anything that isn't a tank. In a balanced game, you'd have to either catch your target out of position or be fed enough to take them out even with a team protecting them.

V3RAJul 4, 20181 votes

Catching your target our of position or being fed are the reasons assassins burst other champs. there are always little mistakes someone makes, that make the assassin switch on and go for the kill.

Weiss GuertenaJul 4, 201813 votes

And that's all fair game. But there have been examples of assassins being able to assassinate with impunity, and an awful lot of people seems to think they should be able to do that purely based on the fact that they are called "assassins". That kind of assassin simply has no place in a PvP game.

BârdJul 4, 20187 votes

If an assassin can't 100-0 somebody, then that is just a useless champion since they would have neither damage or utility. If an assassin can't 100-0 somebody QUICKLY, then that champion will never be played as an assassin. See tank Ekko and bruiser Fizz .

If an assassin can't get in and out quickly, then that champion is a Diver, not an assassin. See Camille JarvanIV MonkeyKing .

If a champion can't clear waves, they aren't a viable mid laner. This is especially true for assassins, who need to shove the waves to roam. For most assassins, being made unable to lane mid via removal of waveclear means the champion is dead. Zed Talon Leblanc aren't exactly great top laners/junglers.

Pyke is not a fucking assassin. He's a damage/pick oriented support who looks like an assassin.

Spacesuit SpiffJul 4, 20187 votes

Back in ye good olde days before Burst Per Second, assassins put out respectable damage but could function without needing to oneshot. Catch a MF by herself, you do 60% with your combo and then keep autoing or wait for your Q to come up. She would shoot you in the meantime, but the damage difference meant you would end up winning the fight. Now you either oneshot with the initiation or die to 4 autos.