The beginning of Season 6 is going to be a balance nightmare

DeusVult··149 votes·12,056 views

ADCs, who have been strong (as the only mandatory class in the game) are getting buffs to base AD, huge buffs to all their items, and nerfs to nearly all their competitors items.

Meanwhile, on the few items that ADCs share with other people, such as item 3153 on fighters, instead of doing what they did to item 3930 and making the item different for ranged/melee, they just straight up nerfed the item. Its almost as if riot doesn't understand what a huge difference there is between melee champs and ranged one, and even on shorter ranged champs the safety that their inherent range provides.

ADCs that have gone top in the past are going to be going top all the time now, thanks to lifesteal on every item, basic items meant to counter health tanks and armor tanks, and the LW upgrade now has GW, so forget about trying to play DrMundo Swain Aatrox .

And with this huge buff to adcs across the board, you know who is going to return with a vengeance?? Assassins. The game is going to become a rock-paper-scissors match played out at champ select, even more so than it is now. Because if a team goes tanky, the other team is free to go with an almost all ADC lineup and utterly smash the tanks/fighters. If a team goes into a multi-ADC lineup, the other team can go assassin heavy and delete them before they get the chance to attack move. And if a team starts going assassin strong, the other team will go tanky fighters who can duel the assassins.

Riot, pls reevaluate your preseason patch, in regards to much of the marksmen itemization. Yes, you finally broke up the "these 5 items are the best and I will get them every game, no matter what." item 3031 item 3072 item 3087 item 3035 item 3006 . But as a whole, the marksmen itemization change puts them too over the top. They even took items away from other classes who that item was designed for.

item 3078 Revert the changes. Like wtf, Ezreal does not need this item to only be about him. Triforce is a bruiser item. item 3156 Get that passive out of there. You can add a "lifeline" passive, but MAW was meant for bruisers/fighters who need the MR/shield to keep from getting blown up when they are in the other teams face. Ranged ADCs dont have that problem. item 3153 Make it deal less damage for ranged champs (as in the current PBE value.) Otherwise, the % current health remains the same for melees. item 3035 On the last whisper + executioners calling upgrade, make the passive GW into an active, with reduced time on the GW (1.5 sec vs 3 sec.) item 3071 Revert the health changes. This item is meant for fighters, not ADCs. It is literally perfect as it is ATM, if you make the PBE changes, you run into the same problems you had before when it was a high AD/low health item. item 3157 Revert nerfs. You can't introduce all these new items that are going to put AD mid laners over the top AND nerf the AP armor item. 1 step at a time riot. item 3075 Put on active where when activated attacks receive higher return damage and GW for 1.5 sec.

Also, GW should be reworked (on everything except ignite, which should be renamed to "deadly wound.") where instead of being a i hit = full apply, GW now stacks up to 4 times, with 10% healing reduc per stack.

Just my 2 cents on the upcoming PBE patch for Season 6. Riot is taking a huge step forward in finally addressing the state of AD items, but as usual they are overbuffing the hell out of one class all at once, while simultaneously nerfing most of their counters. Hopefully we will get some more response from Riot before the patch goes live in a couple of weeks before we have another "league of black cleavers" "league of assassins" type deal with ADCs in every lane and kindred banned because they can jungle

148 Comments

xJLx MCHammer40 votes

I really think it's going to be a nightmare. I've never seen Riot do good with mass changes. Like you said it will be bad

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Indeed truth

sp4412 votes

I dunno, Season 4 went pretty swimmingly, and the Mage itemization changes mid-Season 5 were pretty good.

Fusarix1 votes

{quoted}

I dunno, Season 4 went pretty swimmingly, and the Mage itemization changes mid-Season 5 were pretty good.

Season 4 also didn't have a massive role overhaul, a completely new objective, and massive item changes that will probably force double ADC metas

sp4414 votes

Ok, do you seriously think that Riot is going to launch a patch that just forces double ADC metas and leave it at that?

VexingRaven2 votes

{quoted}

Ok, do you seriously think that Riot is going to launch a patch that just forces double ADC metas and leave it at that?

Yes.

iamleburk5 votes

But preseasons are always massive changes... honestly i think it might be bad for a little but they'll adapt eventually. Thats what they did last season

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

But honestly to me this is when it's at its best and most fun state. When you can play whatever you can theory craft and make it work.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

Literally everyone will probably be able to jungle. XD I can't wait

VexingRaven1 votes

{quoted}

Literally everyone will probably be able to jungle. XD I can't wait

Everyone gets an opportunity to be crushed in the jungle by Jungle Graves.

sungwooyaa2 votes

I've been playing since season 1. This season is by far the worst. It's very unbalanced, as 90% of the mastery taken is Thunderlord's Decree.

DeusVult29 votes

And another thing; By putting lifesteal on every item and saying that its going to be balanced out by the omnipresence of the new LW upgrade, your not hurting ADCs at all. Who it is going to hurt is EVERYONE ELSE who relies on large scale healing/sustain for their kit to work, example Aatrox DrMundo Fiddlesticks Swain Soraka Vladimir Volibear Warwick Zac.

All of those champs are going to be hilariously weak in the preseason because of how much of their power-budget goes into their healing/sustain and now it wont matter because every adc ever is going to get the LW+EC upgrade.

EC used to be healthy because it meant that you had to take an item slot for a situational item. Now its mandatory and that makes it toxic as hell.

Dragonlord71379 votes

One thing they could do is give it the item 3165 passive where the grievous wounds are only applied to targets below 40% health. This would make it a nice pick without completely destroying sustain.

VexingRaven1 votes

{quoted}

One thing they could do is give it the item 3165 passive where the grievous wounds are only applied to targets below 40% health. This would make it a nice pick without completely destroying sustain.

Except Volibear :(

Dragonlord71371 votes

yes but you can't start the game with it so it would only be as bad as item 3165

Sulghunter8 votes

Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.

Do you realize how annoying it is to fight the a fore-mentioned champions in lane? No matter what you do, no matter what tactic you pull, no matter how much harass you land on them, they will constantly ignore you, and just regenerate all of their health, often at no cost to themselves. How would you feel if you had to constantly work to just KEEP the health of one those champs low, and to slack off for A SINGLE MOMENT, and their health is back to full in no time flat.

In fights/engages, you outplay the enemy champ, like Volibear or Mundo, get them low, and they just activate massive health regen to invalidate all of the effort you had just spent out-fighting them. You probably have nothing left at that point, and they are more than ready for a second round.

xFrostKnightx17 votes

In bronze this is true. However in gold+ (maybe some rare smurfing silvers) mundo and volley are the only two can can maintain their sustain.

You also used Voli and Mundo, as an example too for the rest. Which they all fall off much faster into other strengths with Voli and Mundo being the only ones who can face tank sustain. You've doused your opinion in bias and it's no longer a fair assessment of the listed champions.

If you are bias and hate all sustain champions, commenting on "fair/balance" is not your forte because it holds no weight to it's word.


Op is correct in everything he has stated so far, those champions are negatively impacted by all the free sustain (which they sacrificed kit power for) along with GW being easily accessible making champions with sustain in their kit more punished than someone who builds life steal.

Magearna10 votes

I agree with this. And as a Soraka main, I would like to add that you shut down Soraka easily by focusing her. VERY. HARD.

Krinu17 votes

This.

She's not a support; she's a second carry that works by preventing you from killing her team instead of killing yours. She has no engage, weak conditional CC, no damage, no mobility, and garbage base stats. The flipside is that as long as you let her do her thing, she is going to make everything short of a full-on diving engage a loss for you.

You win against Soraka by blowing her up before she's had the chance to do anything. You lose against Soraka by skirmishing and poking. That bruiser you traded down to half health with? Yeah, that was a terrible call, because it cost Soraka 20% of her life to knock off 50% of yours.

Jacknife5 votes

Yes, that's the way to deal with a Soraka, focus her and kill her to stop the heals. At the same time, how do you reach her? You know, seeing as how her spells are all utility, don't do enough damage to kill anything but minions, and have enough range where she never has to leave the back line. So the only way I see to catch her is to send one teammate to flank and get her by surprise, because fighting her team head-on is only gonna cause her to run backward or behind an ally to safety, spam heal whoever the enemy is focusing, and ult when everyone else starts to get remotely low. Why do you not see many soraka's in low elo? because they position badly or the team doesn't protect her, she dies, and the team dies. Higher up? Peel anyone who tries to get close and it's a free win out of pure attrition. Look my post in the eyes and tell me that's balanced.

http://img15.deviantart.net/6deb/i/2014/006/8/9/angry_eyes_by_njbdrawings-d7143zr.jpg

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

You lose against Soraka by skirmishing and poking.

As someone who plays a lot of ARAM (also known as dodge the skillshots >_>), I can confirm this.

TotalJerk3 votes

The thing is that grievous wounds is does not stop them from sustaining infinitely in lane, it just completely fucks them in teamfights where they rely on drain tanking to survive.

Handing out grievous wounds like candy just puts them in a Yorick situation where they still sustain through everything you throw at them in lane making them just as noninteractive since you're forced to delay power spikes on items that exclusively keep them in check, but become a liability during teamfights.

Jacknife2 votes

I might be reading the patch notes wrong, but I'm only seeing GW build into one item, Mortal Reminder. Still one item, still situational between taking that and it's counterpart, Lord Dominik's Regards, which is the tank buster penetration item. Also only a number of the champions on that list are going to have their effectiveness hurt (not destroyed, hurt) by GW.

DrMundo : Early game yes, GW is going to stop him from just ulting all his health back and running away. From what I remember of season 3, a late game mundo with enough health (and its mundo, ofc he's building a metric ton of health) GW will only hamper him, it's not gonna prevent him from meat shielding anything.

Zac : His "healing" is based on bloblet's he can choose to get or not. Yeah, most cases you'd be stupid not to get them, but if you time it right you can circumvent GW.

Volibear : The only healing I see is the mini mundo ult of a passive. The healing is very strong early, and it allows him to make cheese plays that would kill 93% of the roster if they tried it. GW isn't gonna stop him from flipping anyone into your team, or leading the charge, only to stop him from making stupid decisions and not getting punished for it.

Also shoutout to the champions that have heals in their kit that you forgot: Ahri , Akali , Alistar , Cassiopeia , Elise , Chogath , Gragas , Hecarim , Irelia , Karma , Kayle , Kindred , LeeSin , Maokai , MasterYi , Mordekaiser , Nami , Nidalee , RekSai , Olaf Renekton , Rengar , Ryze , Shen (but who knows for how long), Singed , Sona , TahmKench , Taric , Tryndamere , Udyr , XinZhao , Yorick .

It may not be integral to their kits like the one's on your list, but GW is still going to affect them. It'll actually give other players a chance in those fringe cases where you might've had them, they might've died, but 'ding!' heals up! or hey, something to hit! Time to hit the button and run away with almost no health and laugh!

Samflash314 votes

The beginning of every season is a balancing nightmare.

Kuroi8613 votes

ADCs, who have been strong (as the only mandatory class in the game) are getting buffs to base AD, huge buffs to all their items, and nerfs to nearly all their competitors items.

They're also losing AD per lvl and a lot of AD on standard ADC items. In total, ADC's are losing a good bit of AD. Combine this with the increased gold accumulation in game and you've got a significantly different picture.

Please read ALL changes on PBE, not just those that you want to see.

Smithney3 votes

There are points which I agree on with OP, but you stated the single most important fact regarding these changes: there are more changes than just the superficial ones. Imho people are reacting inappropriately to the tentative balance, as if it was about to be pushed to live...

ahferroin71 votes

Except that more than 90% of the time, if it's on PBE, it's in the next patch...

Kuroi861 votes

Maybe, I wouldn't be surprised if they hold on to tweak and tune things a bit more before it goes live.

Even then, jungle items are getting some needed love, gold generation is up, AD is down, Bork passive is nerfed, % pen is nerfed.

About the only aspects I'm concerned about are that the gold generation is enough to keep up with the price increases on items and hoping they give mages a little more mana regen on items. The mana buffs are a good start imo, but I think some regen would go a long way. We'll see, still experimenting.

ahferroin71 votes

While I agree with you about the concern over removal of mana potions, I'm almost more concerned about ADC's now having access to GW. They're obviously trying to make Garen and Darius less viable, but are ignoring the fact that this means that prety much every sustain focused tank except Mundo is going to completely disappear at top level play, and they're already pretty rare other than Aatrox.

Kuroi861 votes

Honestly, I'm not worried about pro play.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Lack of AD doesn't mean much when you have much more critical chance at your disposal along with new toys to work with (easy 40% cdr and %DR along with more upfront burst in statikk/rapidfire and easier access to lifesteal). Yeah I might have less total AD as Lucian but it doesn't really matter when my crit chance averages at 70+ and have 30-40% cdr and 17% LS on critical and 28% physical vamp on champions without building a single life steal item and potentially also have 12% DR. Less AD does mean less front loaded damage but almost every ADC becomes a sustained damage dealing drain tank monster late game that is incredibly hard to kill (Ez and Lucian have extremely short cd gap closers with CDR where Lucian especially can repeatedly use it if he staggers autos correctly since at max CDR E+AA+Q+AA makes Es cd basically 0 since it drops it from 8.4 to 0.4).

A Miss Fortune7 votes

I think ADCs are too strong against tanks now but in general I feel like most ADCs need the buffs.

The top ADCs are only top ADCs because they have loads of self peel and mobility, if not then they're Ashe or Sivir who have the utility to stay relevant even when they're behind. ADCs can go 50-0 but they're still able to be even one-shot by some assassins and more fighters can outduel them like Yi unless they have that self peel/mobility. The ADC role currently feels terrible to play, do well with little pay off. You NEED your team and you can't just walk up and try to duel people. If your team can't protect you always your success is nearly worthless.

There is a reason why ADC is the only role to be babysitted for the first 5 - 15 minutes because if not then most teams could simply just level 1 dive them for free kills.

Virgin Ray4 votes

Zed "Balance is weakness"

Lucifer4 votes

The trin force changes are actually a nerf to ezreal, because all his abilities have some form of ap scaling to benefit from sheen X:

Dengeden3 votes

If they don't go over the top, we're just gonna have 2-3 meta champs in the most dominant role. I'm exaggerating but it's still a problem that LoL has.

You mentioned both item 3153 and item 3930 and couldn't surmise why the former was nerfed for melees too? Ok.

The game is going to become a rock-paper-scissors match played out at champ select, even more so than it is now.

That's a good thing. Again, we won't just have a "pick or ban this champ, they're strong" draft phase.

so forget about trying to play Aatrox DrMundo Swain

None of them are meta, so that doesn't really matter. Sustain-focused kits are incredibly powerful when playable. Backing them into a corner like that will be helpful in assessing what to do about it.

item 3157 Revert nerfs.

Shrug The gold nerf is irrelevant and the AP nerf is a love tap. You never bought that item for the AP anyway.

item 3078 is a bruiser item.

You guys shouldn'ta complained about Irelia for no goddam reason then.

item 3071 is literally perfect as it is ATM, if you make the PBE changes, you run into the same problems you had before when it was a high AD/low health item.

One, nope, the item is too strong on too many champions. Two, the old Cleaver's problem was that it built out of Brutalizer.

item 3156 was meant for bruisers/fighters who need the MR/shield to keep from getting blown up.

You're thinking of Hextrinker. The last time I saw someone complete Maw was on Sneaky's Kalista.

You can't introduce all these new items that are going to put AD mid laners over the top.

AD mids still pose the obvious problem of you're putting something with AD mid. No matter how hard tanks get nerfed, full AD teams are problematic. All their nerfs won't just randomly go away either just because they got a little MR.

Champion Skin1 votes

AD mids still pose the obvious problem of you're putting something with AD mid. No matter how hard tanks get nerfed, full AD teams are problematic. All their nerfs won't just randomly go away either just because they got a little MR. Isn't that why Corki auto attacks now deal 50/50 physical and magic damage

Dengeden2 votes

Isn't that why Corki auto attacks now deal 50/50 physical and magic damage

Would you people get with the times? Corki has always done mixed damage as an ADC. His current AAs deal additional true damage btw. His problem is that he falls off damagewise.

C9 Jìnx2 votes

Literally just wanted to up vote the Triforce comment I love you for that

Dragonlord71372 votes

Well, I like Riot's ambitions but they are really trying to bring back adc's after this season so at least give them credit for trying. i think they are going a little overboard as well but I would rather them screw around with everything to make the game interesting for a month or 2 then do almost nothing and have adcs sit in the bland place they are now.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Well, I like Riot's ambitions but they are really trying to bring back adc's after this season so at least give them credit for trying. i think they are going a little overboard as well but I would rather them screw around with everything to make the game interesting for a month or 2 then do almost nothing and have adcs sit in the bland place they are now.

"bring back". adc never went anywhere, theyre still carrying lategame.

the only thing they seem pissed about is that there are other champs now that can bring similar damage to a teamfight as them. its not that theyre actually lacking themselves.

never mind their additional strengths when it comes to taking objectives.

all this salt from adc mains this season seems more about sharing the spotlight than not dealing enough damage or being ineffective.

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

I think it is going to be interesting to see how balance ends up. The zhonyas nerf is to nerf assassins which you mention may end up too strong. However, picking multiple marksmen/squishies doesn't mean an auto win for assassins. With some new buffs for bodyguards (such as 8%reduction and siphon from dmg to Adc) plus save mechanics like tahm assassins will likely struggle if they aren't good enough to choose hood timing.

ahferroin71 votes

The Zhonya's nerf actually indirectly buffs AD assassins like Zed and Talon.

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

Yes and no. It nerfs AP assassins so AD assassins are a stronger choice by comparison, bu I'd argue there are other changes that indirectly nerf AD assassins in ways that don't make it a buff overall (even if it's easier to kill mages and AP assassins w/out them having access to zhonya's as soon). Tank supports get a buff having the new mastery trees allowing them to get both utility and defensive masteries without sacrificing access to the other, so more often supports will be harder to one shot. Additionally with ADC's likely being stronger there are two issues that nerf AD assassins as a result. The first is that killing the APC is worth less if the value of another target is higher because you are having to give up more and getting less from killing the target who now lacks zhonyas, so if you have to trade lives to do it, there is less value now. Second, ADC's having more sustain options and EC again to hurt other champ's sustain may let champs like quinn or graves top be stronger picks, and picking an AD assassin w/ two AD champs already let's the enemy stack armor which is a huge nerf to AD assassins. It may not turn out that way but it's hard to predict shifts.

TotalJerk2 votes

Every preseason was a fucking mess. I'm really surprised that you guys are still surprised about this every year.

JJI7443 votes

{quoted}

Every preseason was a fucking mess. I'm really surprised that you guys are still surprised about this every year.

A) new people. B) Selective memory C) People who think BC stacking was super balanced because it benifited the champions THEY played.

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

Several things you're forgetting

Major AD items all will have WAY less AD than before, while their costs are remaining about the same.

Zhonya's Nerf was Unintended and will be fixed

Grievous Wounds is now only a 30-40% reduction instead of 50% reduction

LW and it's upgrades only give 30-40% BONUS Armor pen, making them less effective against everyone, even tanks.

Maw is getting Guinsoo's old Surge Passive, that's all

Trinity Force Most Bruisers like CDR over AP. Most of their AP scaling wasn't all that great, and prefer the 10% CDR over anything else. Jax and Irelia like the new trinity force way more because they get more CDR for their abilities to be up more often, and more mana to spam their abilities.

BotRK is already borderline broken because of Devourer. It needs it's nerf.

The changes to Black Cleaver are to make it less gold efficient, and actually buff most fighters, since many bought it as their only source of damage, so now that it grants more AD, and still keeps the CDR and armor shred, it's a more powerful first rush item.

To give an exact Change of itemization nerfs:

Statick Shiv no longer builds out of Avarice blade, meaning carries can't pick up Avarice blade early to help accelerate their gold income and it does WAY less damage early.

IE now grants only 65 damage instead of 80 and now only states that it increases critical bonus damage by 50% instead of changing all crits to 250% damage, BT has 75 damage, and cost is increased to 3700, LW now grants barely any AD (25) and is bonus armor only, Mercurial Scimitar grants 10% Lifesteal and only 75 damage instead of 80.

Overall, yes the itemization does seem to favor ADCs, but you're forgetting a large portion of the nerfs and other effects that itemiztion changes have.

AkaliLouanlavong1 votes

LW now grants barely any AD (25) and is bonus armor only

But it only cost 1375g and builds into 2 other items..

Power Cosmic2 votes

I am excited for changes, but believe some well-defined things should be left static to see how important new stuff effects the game.

ARequestOfDeath1 votes

adcs are not mandatory. though they are nice to have i prefer doing my double bruiser bot

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

adcs are not mandatory. though they are nice to have i prefer doing my double bruiser bot

outside of normals, they are mandatory.

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