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The Myth of Jungler "agency"

Worst JG Wins··14 votes·5,747 views

Whenever people talk about Jungle being "OP" one word always comes up "Agency"

This word is throw out there to explain how someone can be "OP" yet be behind in gold and XP while being forced take a bad 1st item, normally have weak scaling and take a weaker combat sum.

What does it mean though? and do Junglers actually have more of this so called "agency"

Agency 2 : the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power

This is the definition of Agency people are using. They use it to mean Junglers have the most POWER in influencing which Lanes win and which lanes lose. Since Junglers have the most power in determining which lanes win or lose they ultimately determine which team wins.

I have 2 problems with the line of logic

First Junglers DON'T have the POWER to choose which lanes win. Laners have the POWER to force Junglers into playing one side of the map which is ultimately what decides which lanes win. There has been two periods of time in which the Jungler were forced by laners to play to one side of the map. First is Lane swap meta in which Junglers were forced to go to whichever side the Bot+Support choose. Jungler couldn't help they weak side because it was be 2 v 3 Top+JG vs BOT duo vs JG as this is an obviously losing proposition Jungle was forced to play whichever side of the map their BOT lane choose. Clearly in this scenario BOT lane is the one with agency. Second is the Crab battle meta we're currently in. Again second versus same as the first, Junglers simply don't CHOOSE which side of the Jungle to play, this is al decided by which lanes winning and which lanes are losing, if my top and mid are losing lanes i simply cant play topside and if my botlane is the winning lane the opposing jungler simply can't play botside. Again Junglers aren't CHOOSING to play to a side laners are FORCING them to play to a side.

Second Ultimately late game macro and team fight matter much more then, winning lane. Jungle due to poor first items, a weak combat sum and a champion pool that outside of a few exceptions Karthus have strong early game and poor scaling.

Conclusion in the past JG was a strong role in the early game and a weak role in the later stages of the game for most of LOL history. JG is a shit role in both early and late game.

TL;DR JG is weak

34 Comments

ExcaliburX8 votes

If your talking about textbook and high elo than yea, junlger dont really have a choice in terms of which lane to "gank more" which results in spending more time in one side of the map or prioritizing jungle path that allows them to be more active on one side.

For people that dont know about one of the unwritten rules of a jungler is that you dont gank a losing lane and you want to re-enforce the winning lanee by camping them.

In regards to jungle item, no opinion.

preternatural7 votes

the jungle items are some of the most cost efficient items in the game btw. -forced to take bad items like ok :/

The thigh guy9 votes

{quoted}

the jungle items are some of the most cost efficient items in the game btw. -forced to take bad items like ok :/

Hunters talisman, hunters machete, skirmishers Sabre and stalkers blade are some of the WORST items in the game for combat potential. The fuck are you on about?

SH Azykan1 votes

Skirmishers isn't bad at all though?

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=TPG Azykan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-17T07:11:09.203+0000)

Skirmishers isn't bad at all though?

Compare skirmishers to any other component item. Sheen Bf sword Needless Serrated dirk Phage It’s worse than all these items. And it’s power is on a cooldown.

Worst JG Wins6 votes

{quoted}

the jungle items are some of the most cost efficient items in the game btw. -forced to take bad items like ok :/

No they aren't

For example

Warrior 2625 gold Combat stats 60 AD 10% CDR Total Gold Value = Gold 2366.67

Duskblade 2900 gold 55 AD 10% CDR 21 Leathality Total Gold Value = Gold 2664.17

Jungle items have normal cost effectiveness from stats but no passive. Jungle items are only "cost effective" when you account for the healing and stats that only effect clearing the Jungle camps, but this is a 1000 gold burden place to junglers that isn't placed on laners and not real "cost effectiveness"

preternatural4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-16T20:09:00.695+0000)

No they aren't

For example

Warrior 2625 gold Combat stats 60 AD 10% CDR Total Gold Value = Gold 2366.67

Duskblade 2900 gold 55 AD 10% CDR 21 Leathality Total Gold Value = Gold 2664.17

Jungle items have normal cost effectiveness from stats but no passive. Jungle items are only "cost effective" when you account for the healing and stats that only effect clearing the Jungle camps, but this is a 1000 gold burden place to junglers that isn't placed on laners and not real "cost effectiveness"

you literally did the math for everyone. the jungle item costs less and does more. you need to get levels to use lethality, AD is AD no matter what though.

Worst JG Wins6 votes

{quoted}

you literally did the math for everyone. the jungle item costs less and does more. you need to get levels to use lethality, AD is AD no matter what though.

It does less 21 leathality and 2 passives much much better then 5AD.

The cost as a percentage 90.1% for the JG item 91.8% for the Duskblade and on top of that Duskblade has 2 passive. On top of that Duskblade has item 3134 item 3133 as components vs item 3133 item 3715 as components which means during the building of the item the laner has between 10AD to 25AD+10 lethality of extra stats. On top of that laners have much more choice in items so which means they get to pick items that fit their champ better.

This isn't a debate point. It's just a fact that JG items suck

preternatural3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-16T21:30:01.014+0000)

It does less 21 leathality and 2 passives much much better then 5AD.

The cost as a percentage 90.1% for the JG item 91.8% for the Duskblade and on top of that Duskblade has 2 passive. On top of that Duskblade has item 3134 item 3133 as components vs item 3133 item 3715 as components which means during the building of the item the laner has between 10AD to 25AD+10 lethality of extra stats. On top of that laners have much more choice in items so which means they get to pick items that fit their champ better.

This isn't a debate point. It's just a fact that JG items suck

the jungle items are so good there was an entire meta dedicated to building them on solo laners. :/ and rito has to watch like a hawk to make sure that doesn't keep on occurring. those items are broken out of necessity, they are not bad items. they provide infinite sustain. they provide dmg. they provide whatever utility is relevant to your class of champion be it cdr, splash dmg, hp, immolation. a slow or personal exhaust on the smite. like bro them items are broken as shit. :/ why do i have to prove this again when the season itself, and the previous like 5 fucking seasons tbh, prove it already? :/ what are you doing here? :/ you trolling or something? :/

Worst JG Wins3 votes

{quoted}

the jungle items are so good there was an entire meta dedicated to building them on solo laners. :/

Gold funneling had nothing to do with the jungle items being so good. It had to do with the JG being so bad that playing a hyper carry and second support was better then play a jungler and a mid. Smite mids had nothing to do with the items being too good it was about JG being such dogshit that playing a supportive tank and passing camps to your Mid laner so he could get fed was better then doing anything carry oriented, because again role was shit.

JG items are shit and anyone that even plays JG as a secondary role knows this.

preternatural2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-16T22:01:13.023+0000)

Gold funneling had nothing to do with the jungle items being so good. It had to do with the JG being so bad that playing a hyper carry and second support was better then play a jungler and a mid. Smite mids had nothing to do with the items being too good it was about JG being such dogshit that playing a supportive tank and passing camps to your Mid laner so he could get fed was better then doing anything carry oriented, because again role was shit.

JG items are shit and anyone that even plays JG as a secondary role knows this.

last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrb369b7F6M

this year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIq5DVCWaGE

are we playing the same game or no?

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrb369b7F6M

this year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIq5DVCWaGE

are we playing the same game or no?

Arent both of those videos awful clickbait videos that outline a niche and patch specific strategy which only EVER worked on a handful of champions for a specific reason, and have all fallen off or by the wayside?

preternatural1 votes

{quoted}

Arent both of those videos awful clickbait videos that outline a niche and patch specific strategy which only EVER worked on a handful of champions for a specific reason, and have all fallen off or by the wayside?

you can play smite mid right now on ekko, zed, talon, leblanc, fizz, vlad, neeko, probably rumble, and someone else i'm forgetting. most likely kayle or aatrox. :/ trynd can do it in top lane literally all the time if he wants to. cho can too. shit is forever sleeper OP people just have enough honor not to play it. :/ wouldn't have seen that coming from this community :/ top lane nocturne can run it too, pretty much always. akali if you're so inclined ;/ riven lee i mean...if you wanna really get funky you can run it on veigar and dirty farm the jungle :/ orianna too it can be run on a lot of people lol. you can run it on Zoe and auto secure any summoners from lvl 3 onwards. i find the community incredibly blinkered on these topics, why is that? :/ you have G2 literally running samsung white comps in the pros, soloq will permit a lot more than the pros. :/ yes i am jaded by this community again :/ heck even sure kata can run it.

i mean really lads it's not like this is season 4 before we could smite champions you know. heck even then the newly introduced jungle items were broken broken, nightmares of wraith vladimir fucking shit up. :/

Worst JG Wins2 votes

{quoted}

you can play smite mid right now on ekko, zed, talon, leblanc, fizz, vlad, neeko, probably rumble, and someone else i'm forgetting. most likely kayle or aatrox. :/

You get -10 gold per minion kill if you play smite mid. They also made the spawn timers of Raptors and wolves 3 seconds later so that you can get XP off the first set of melee creeps if you start in the JG. Yeah that's right they nerfed the JG cause mid was OP. Rito games for you.

Worst JG Wins2 votes

{quoted}

last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrb369b7F6M

this year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIq5DVCWaGE

are we playing the same game or no?

Yes and i made a thread about it before those videos came out

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3K6Aiktu-810-jungle-guide-on-how-to-play-the-jungle

Notice how my post is 3 patches before the "Koreans" copied my strat.

In case you don't understand my humor my guide isn't about JG it's about smite mid and why smite mid will be good. The JG items where shit then too. JG champs Like Shaco and Udyr that didn't need the JG item to clear the Jungle would take things like Tri-force first and would often never even complete the JG item because it's so shit. The only reason to complete the JG item first is because the game basically forces you.

preternatural3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-10-16T22:48:39.051+0000)

Yes and i made a thread about it before those videos came out

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3K6Aiktu-810-jungle-guide-on-how-to-play-the-jungle

Notice how my post is 3 patches before the "Koreans" copied my strat.

In case you don't understand my humor my guide isn't about JG it's about smite mid and why smite mid will be good. The JG items where shit then too. JG champs Like Shaco and Udyr that didn't need the JG item to clear the Jungle would take things like Tri-force first and would often never even complete the JG item because it's so shit. The only reason to complete the JG item first is because the game basically forces you.

Warrior

60 attack damage = Gold 2100 10% cooldown reduction = Gold 266.67 Total Gold Value = Gold 2366.67 Actual Cost = Gold 1625 Gold Efficient = 145.64%

Runic Echoes

80 ability power = Gold 1740 10% cooldown reduction = Gold 266.67 300 mana = Gold 420 Total Gold Value = Gold 2426.67 Actual Cost = Gold 1500 Gold Efficient = 161.78%

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Gold_efficiency/Finished_Items#R ?

by contrast

Duskblade of Draktharr

55 attack damage = Gold 1925 10% cooldown reduction = Gold 266.67 Total Gold Value = Gold 2191.67 18 Lethality (from passive) = Gold 405 Total Gold Value = Gold 2596.67 Actual Cost = Gold 2900 Gold Efficient = 89.54%

Edge of Night

55 attack damage = Gold 1925 250 health = Gold 666.67 Total Gold Value = Gold 2591.67 18 Lethality (from passive) = Gold 405 Total Gold Value = Gold 2996.67 Actual Cost = Gold 3000 Gold Efficient = 99.89%

Youmuu's Ghostblade

55 attack damage = Gold 1925 10% cooldown reduction = Gold 266.67 Total Gold Value = Gold 2191.67 18 Lethality (from passive) = Gold 405 Total Gold Value = Gold 2596.67 Actual Cost = Gold 2900 Gold Efficient = 89.54% (106.09% while out-of-combat) (116.78% while actived) (133.33% while out-of-combat and actived)

you can go look at them yourself.

Paroe3 votes

{quoted}

Snip

talk about your misinformation, my gosh. Gold efficiency looks at the total cost of the COMPLETED ITEM, not the efficiency of components. You cannot quote the ENCHANTMENT as your target when it is NOT the completed item. In your defense the wiki is apparently garbage in this case, as its separated the enchantments from their completed items.

Jungler item: 1000g Blood razor: 1625g Cinderhulk: 1500 Runic echoes: 1500 Warrior: 1625

Total costs: 2625, 2500, 2500, and 2625g.

Blood razor: 1250 Cinderhulk: 920 Warrior: 2366 Runic echoes: 2426

Gold efficiency: Blood razor: 46% Cinder hulk: 37% Warrior: 90% Runic echoes: 97%

Now that you have a good baseline you can compare passives, at which point you find out that jungle items - with their inferior base stats - are VERY weak compared to their counterparts. I find it extremely off putting that the gold efficiency of cinderhulk and blood razor is so low, though,

preternatural1 votes

{quoted}

talk about your misinformation, my gosh. Gold efficiency looks at the total cost of the COMPLETED ITEM, not the efficiency of components. You cannot quote the ENCHANTMENT as your target when it is NOT the completed item. In your defense the wiki is apparently garbage in this case, as its separated the enchantments from their completed items.

Jungler item: 1000g Blood razor: 1625g Cinderhulk: 1500 Runic echoes: 1500 Warrior: 1625

Total costs: 2625, 2500, 2500, and 2625g.

Blood razor: 1250 Cinderhulk: 920 Warrior: 2366 Runic echoes: 2426

Gold efficiency: Blood razor: 46% Cinder hulk: 37% Warrior: 90% Runic echoes: 97%

Now that you have a good baseline you can compare passives, at which point you find out that jungle items - with their inferior base stats - are VERY weak compared to their counterparts. I find it extremely off putting that the gold efficiency of cinderhulk and blood razor is so low, though,

Bloodrazor

50% attack speed = Gold 1250 Total Gold Value = Gold 1250 20 on-hit damage (from passive) (minimum assuming 500 enemy health) = Gold 500 Total Gold Value = Gold 1750 Actual Cost = Gold 1625 Gold Efficient = 107.69%

actually bloodrazor has efficiency of 107% and that increases as people around the item get hp. so yah :/

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

actually bloodrazor has efficiency of 107% and that increases as people around the item get hp. so yah :/

I see your region is EUW and english probably isnt your primary language, so let me explain a little more explicitly why youre wrong here.

  1. Jungle items are a combination of an enchantment and a jungle base.
  2. You cannot buy a jungle enchantment on its own.
  3. You do not count damage passives in gold efficiency until youre using them to compare similar items (such as blood razor vs botrk).

You keep trying to claim gold efficiency Using JUST the enchantment pseudo component and not the actual cost of the item. This makes your argument inherently flawed and unusable in a normal context.

Worst JG Wins2 votes

{quoted}

Runic echo's and Warrior don't cost 1625 gold they cost 2625 for the completed item. You can ignore the 1000 gold worth of useless combat stats.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-16T20:09:00.695+0000)

No they aren't

For example

Warrior 2625 gold Combat stats 60 AD 10% CDR Total Gold Value = Gold 2366.67

Duskblade 2900 gold 55 AD 10% CDR 21 Leathality Total Gold Value = Gold 2664.17

Jungle items have normal cost effectiveness from stats but no passive. Jungle items are only "cost effective" when you account for the healing and stats that only effect clearing the Jungle camps, but this is a 1000 gold burden place to junglers that isn't placed on laners and not real "cost effectiveness"

In my book that Warrior is looking mighty fine though?

Slightly more AD, equal CDR but no lethality or speed stuff at the expense of gaining jungle sustain and being able to choose blue or red smite.......That red smite actually wins the 1v1 more often than not if i am not mistaken too? And blue smite is used to gapclose on targets that kinda lose if you get in melee range so.......

Why would you say that those items are bad? They are actually so good.

In addition to the junglers main deal of pathing around the map while clearing camps so having sustain to prevent them from rolling around with 50% HP is kinda important, just like assassins need that movespeed to have a better shot at roaming and juking.

Worst JG Wins2 votes

{quoted}

In my book that Warrior is looking mighty fine though?

Slightly more AD, equal CDR but no lethality or speed stuff at the expense of gaining jungle sustain and being able to choose blue or red smite.......That red smite actually wins the 1v1 more often than not if i am not mistaken too? And blue smite is used to gapclose on targets that kinda lose if you get in melee range so.......

Why would you say that those items are bad? They are actually so good.

In addition to the junglers main deal of pathing around the map while clearing camps so having sustain to prevent them from rolling around with 50% HP is kinda important, just like assassins need that movespeed to have a better shot at roaming and juking.

It's fucking terrible and before Kha and Rengar were forced to buy the full Jungle item they would sit on machette and get Duskblade or Ghostblade first.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2019-10-17T00:04:24.720+0000)

It's fucking terrible and before Kha and Rengar were forced to buy the full Jungle item they would sit on machette and get Duskblade or Ghostblade first.

About Warrior

You should be getting this enchantment every single game that you play alongside your jungle item of choice. It gives Kha'Zix a massive power spike once he reaches it, and will let you duel almost anyone. Ideally, Stalker's Blade is your go to jungle item for Kha'Zix.

You know who wrote this? A guy making a guy on the kha6 reddit who has been challenger x)

And here is a link to another guide that is considered the official one over there where i conviniently linked at a segment where he talks about duskblade. https://www.reddit.com/r/KhaZixMains/wiki/index/guide/itemization#wiki_warrior_vs_duskblade

However curiously the Rengar reddit did reach another conclusion where they found that their ideal build path is like jungle item component or item 3706 an not -upgraded part like this into tiamat into duskblade.

Difference probably stems from kit differences.

However this is to be taken with a grain of salt as it´s very clear that Kha6 reddit has done waaaaay more research comparing to the Rengar side.

L Psy Kongroo5 votes

If Riot really wanted to nerf jungle, all they'd have to do is increase vision options. They can nerf EXP all they like, but at the end of the day all that will do is force junglers to gank more often and have MORE agency than laners. By increasing vision, laners can avoid ganks easier and prevent the jungler from deciding the early game.

Tr4shB4NSYST3M5 votes

And yet theyre saying in the preseason that theyre going to buff solo lane xp and nerf jg xp. Bruh.

Zardo5 votes

Just curious, if jungle has low agency, then why in the recent race to challenger were the most successful players jungle mains? If it really had low agency as you claim, high elo players would struggle smurfing up to challenger on the role because they just don't have the impact to carry games. However, this isn't the case. https://www.bangingheads.net/race2chall/

Also yeah winning lanes(which often aren't decided by skill, more often are decided by waveclear and matchups) mean you can't invade or go for scuttle. However, they are easier to gank, and you can also go vertical to play around your winning lane if you just want to farm.

Is jungle OP? No. Is jungle a strong role to climb with? 100%.

Worst JG Wins2 votes

{quoted}

Just curious, if jungle has low agency, then why in the recent race to challenger were the most successful players jungle mains? If it really had low agency as you claim, high elo players would struggle smurfing up to challenger on the role because they just don't have the impact to carry games. However, this isn't the case. https://www.bangingheads.net/race2chall/

Also yeah winning lanes(which often aren't decided by skill, more often are decided by waveclear and matchups) mean you can't invade or go for scuttle. However, they are easier to gank, and you can also go vertical to play around your winning lane if you just want to farm.

Is jungle OP? No. Is jungle a strong role to climb with? 100%.

Skill is more important the anything. The thing you linked has 21 players and like 11 of them are junglers. Not surprising. https://www.trackingthepros.com/bootcamp is all the pros that are bootcamping in EUW solo Q. Much healthier spread of roles of players "playing in it" No role is really dominate it's more about player skill vs players in the same role.

Ganking for a losing lane is generally consider to be the wrong choice. Things can go really badly if a counter gank happens now not only is that lane behind but the jungler is behind as well. It's almost always the correct choice to play to your winning lanes. Which is why teams split the map often with both sides playing to a "winning side" and hoping that side can carry. Ganking for a losing lane becomes even worse as jungle gets weaker. Because it limits his impact on ganking for a losing lane and reduces the chances he can get a successful gank off to get that lane back in the game. It's better for him to just keep forcing on the strong side of the map.

Edit: One nice thing about this for smurfing as JG can almost always be on the winning side of the map. Which is definitely a fun part about the role and is real nice for carrying on smurf accounts. It's not something that really translate to agency or power in your actual rank.

Whisper872 votes

I'd have to disagree with the second portion of your line of reasoning. As early-md game control is now more important than it's ever been. And true 5v5 team fight comps hardly every get fully off the ground anymore.

Just to highlight this point even in situations where something like a GP wins the game, it's usually not because the team stalled out long enough and they scaled up and he carried through team fights. It's usually because despite being a scaling champ he somehow managed to go unpunished through the early-mid game and thus came online insanely early and hardcarried as a free farmed hyperscaler.

So in actuality the few situations where a scaling champ/comp is successful actually proves the point that laning matters, because they won through a good lane phase that they should not have had, not because they were able to neutralize the lead gained by the opposing jungler in the early-mid game.

LightswornLance2 votes

GP is good because he is a scaling blind pickable lane bully that can have impact around the map with his ult.

Free Roll2 votes

Just one big dirty lie because pro plays differently. In solo que jungelr has immense "agency" and can carry like a boss. Only role in the game that can influence every aspect of the game. Just because you personally are not good enough to carry from jungle doesnt mean the role is broken. Just watch dom or even karasmai. sure they might not be able to carry every game no one carries every game.

Jungle is the easiest role period, and has the most influence over the outcome of the game period to suggest anything less means you are clueless. Reality is no "role drops off" (even the whiney tops) its just the nature of a game with melee and range that when it comes to 5 v 5 the range will be the determining factor most often because they have the easiest ability to not take dmg and to focus dmg due to range and focus dmg wins in group engagements period and for most ever type of game and even real life.

Worst JG Wins2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Free Roll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wPLPMfKY,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-10-17T03:31:29.402+0000)

Just one big dirty lie because pro plays differently. In solo que jungelr has immense "agency" and can carry like a boss. Only role in the game that can influence every aspect of the game. Just because you personally are not good enough to carry from jungle doesnt mean the role is broken. Just watch dom or even karasmai. sure they might not be able to carry every game no one carries every game.

It's weird that you think JG is the easiest role, yet it's the role ADC MID and TOP preform the worst on when autofilled is JG. The only role that doesn't preform the worst on Jungle when autofilled is SUP, which preforms worst on ADC.

preternatural1 votes

ok worst jg, here's cinderhulk

Cinderhulk

300 health = Gold 800 Total Gold Value = Gold 800 45 health (from +15% bonus health passive) = Gold 120.15 Total Gold Value = Gold 920.15 Actual Cost = Gold 1500 Gold Efficient = 61.34%

we can talk about cinderhulk's gold efficiency if you want. you wanna do that? i'm not gonna say hashinshin is right based on this item, but examining this item would enlighten you as to what teh gold efficiency ting is.

Worst JG Wins3 votes

{quoted}

ok worst jg, here's cinderhulk

we can talk about cinderhulk's gold efficiency if you want. you wanna do that? i'm not gonna say hashinshin is right based on this item, but examining this item would enlighten you as to what teh gold efficiency ting is.

Cinderhulk is literally has the worst gold efficiency of any item in the game. Literally the worst the untill your at 5+ plus completed HP items even then it's still not good literally the only way for Cinderhulk to be cost efficient is to be Cho with like 15 stacks. Cinder hulk gives 345 HP before you start stacking extra bonus health for 2600 gold giants belt gives 380 HP for 1000 gold, with 1000 extra bonus health it's at 500 hp for 2600 gold compared to warmongs 800 and 10 CDR for 2800 gold.

Please just stop posting nonsense like this.

Linna Excel1 votes

The jungler usually has to path to the bot side unless top has snowbally champs.

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