building only defenses simply doesn't work anymore

ALL MłGHT·Jun 22, 2018·33 votes·12,494 views

with runes like conqueror, ignite being buffed, tank items being useless vs mixed damage it just doesn't feel great to be the front line for the team knowing that i'll be wiped out in seconds

77 Comments

MordepoolJun 22, 201816 votes

Building Defensively on a Non- Tank = auto-loss

ALL MłGHTJun 22, 20183 votes

I really don't understand what you're insinuating.

MordepoolJun 22, 201811 votes

If your behind in a lane building Defensively. Doesn't mitigate thier Damage enough to actually survive.

If your ahead you could build defensive to mitigate your laners damage but noone would do that

GigglesOJun 22, 20186 votes

{quoted}

If your ahead you could build defensive to mitigate your laners damage but noone would do that

You would have to be extremely far ahead to be able to do this. Defense items are way too expensive.

Caretaker JackJun 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You would have to be extremely far ahead to be able to do this. Defense items are way too expensive.

That statement is just not true, tanky items range from 2,700 to 2,900... There are also options cheaper than that (unless you're getting abyssal.) Standard damage items are the most expensive by far... But on average, it would be more fair to say they're the same.

item 3142 item 3147 2900 item 3812 3500 item 3053 3200 item 3384 3733 item 3146 3400 item 3074 3250 item 3153 3200

The main reason people don't tank is because even if they do it right, someone has to follow it up... Why waste gold to peel for ppl who may or may not follow when you can just pick up a fuck ton of dmg and land your combos to victory? It's not like they can stall, if you're ahead.

Mages lost a ton of mana so if they aren't ahead, how can they stall wave and prioritize kills? You may as well get an assn who can attempt a shutdown by roaming.

Marksmen are nerfed. If you're not ahead, then you're too needy... Why not just play yas so you can self peel and combo with that half decent zyra or malphite? You have a much better shot at getting shutdown gold that way.

If you're a tank jungle and your team is behind, who are you peeling for? You may as well get dmg so you can attempt a shut down.... And it goes on.

GigglesOJun 24, 20181 votes

Sorry, maybe I should have said "too expensive for their value" They have shitty slot efficiency, shitty gold efficiency, and do (almost) nothing to help you survive. 1 more second in combat is pretty shit.

Why would I want to live 1 more second when I could just deal damage and kill them and survive? Defense needs a buff or offence needs a nerf for defense to be worth building again.

JoeMGJun 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If your behind in a lane building Defensively. Doesn't mitigate thier Damage enough to actually survive.

If your ahead you could build defensive to mitigate your laners damage but noone would do that

I remember people uses to say build defense when you're behind, but that doesn't really work anymore.

Had a Zed mirror match where he got first blood on me. I was slightly up in cs but he was up a level. I came back to lane with item 3134 and item 1029 and he had and item 1036 and he just flat out out-damaged me. I should have just went for my own and attempted to trade. He just snowballed hard from there.

ALL MłGHTJun 23, 20181 votes

Here is a situation. If I play Ryze and get first blood vs Zed and back with greater gold advantage AND buy cloth armor with my standard Tear + dark seal buy versus his dirk buy I should be able to stand my ground and heavily put trade him but that’s not the case because of Domination tree and how useless defenses are. I shouldn’t have to build straight glass cannon each game and just aram it out in the midlane

Nea104Jun 22, 20187 votes

They destroyed tanks (and defences in general, also overbuffing damage) in order to make the game even more snowbally.

Also, tanks got popular couple of months ago NOT because they were TANKY, but because they were dealing DAMAGE as well :D Perfect design.

KídáJun 22, 20185 votes

I don't like Conqueror giving true damage because it makes true damage more accessible than it should be. I think instead, conqueror should give adaptive damage.

AmocJun 22, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I don't like Conqueror giving true damage because it makes true damage more accessible than it should be. I think instead, conqueror should give adaptive damage.

Conqueror should be removed, or nerfed significantly. Champs like Yi, Jax etc shouldn't want to use it. They abuse it heavily.

DoktorKaiserJun 23, 20183 votes

It makes Jax very strong, it makes Yi gamebreaking. Not really comparable. Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Yasuo, Irelia and Camille are the ones who need to be restricted from that shit.

RainXBladeJun 23, 20181 votes

Would love it if they just replaced Conqueror with Fervor instead. At least with Fervor, it's a stat-check that can actually be balanced. Conqueror is just, "hurr durr, have some free true damage in your kit XD".

DavakenJun 23, 20181 votes

Riot has given some their reasoning for allowing more champions to have true damage a lot of times. Basically a way for them to make the difference between hitting a squishy and hitting a tank similar. You can totally disagree with this design, and I personally really think it should get a nerf.

Leto GTJun 22, 20183 votes

As a result, you can't build tanky when behind. It's annoying. Itemization when behind is weird.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20182 votes

Conqueror is weak. That's just a fact based on stats.

Ignite, the FLAT TRUE DAMAGE isn't stopping tanks who STACK HEALTH.

Tanks items outscale mixed damage. Have you ever played mixed damage Kayle into someone building Omen, Adaptive, and Stoneplate? You deal near 0 damage. That's the weakness of mixed damage is that they have no options for pen.

#What tank is dying "instantly" when Crit marksmen are near unplayable?

RalanrJun 22, 20183 votes

Tanks outscaled mixed damage: I disagree here. I think the only thing helping is adaptive. Generally even resistances don’t stand up to sustained damage, which mixed damage champions often do.

As for the ignite problem: 1) flat health stacking has been nerfed. 2) ignite is only a problem in lane, where you don’t have many items to counter flat damage and it’s used as an execute.

I don’t agree that tanks are being deleted instantly, but their presence hasn’t been very positive.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20181 votes

Try playing Jax into a tank who built Adaptive Helm and Thornmail. Trust me, you won't have fun.

As for the ignite problem: 1) flat health stacking has been nerfed. 2) ignite is only a problem in lane, where you don’t have many items to counter flat damage and it’s used as an execute.

On finished items was HP reduced, and tanks aren't being crippled by ignite... I agree Ignite is overpowered, but it has nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.

RalanrJun 22, 20183 votes

We talking full build Jax and full build tank or just two items?

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20181 votes

a standard Jax

Trinity, Titanic, Sterak's, and a tank item.

RalanrJun 22, 20183 votes

So you’re not really building on hit then.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20181 votes

Why would I build a late game 1v1 build in a world where late game 1v1s don't exist? I'd rather not die in a snap in a teamfight.

RalanrJun 22, 20182 votes

Oh idk, maybe because the topic was about on hit mixed damage?

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20182 votes

but Jax has mixed damage within his kit. His R-Passive and his W.

RalanrJun 23, 20182 votes

Yeah but he’s not going to do much mixed damage if he doesn’t build something for it.

Jinzo TorranceJun 22, 20185 votes

What stats? There's not a single tank in the top 20 for top lane on Op.gg and the only tank in competitive is Ornn. They're all under 50% winrate and low playrate in SoloQ, and who's the cause if not for the 20 fighters who get Conqueror and shit on them?

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20181 votes

The fact the best top laners are Irelia, Camile, Darius, Malphite, Cho'Gath, Aatrox, and Ornn?

Only two of those champions use Conqueror (Darius and Aatrox) well, and then you have Irelia who takes it because there's no other keystone for her to take.

PB4UAMEJun 23, 20181 votes

Camile also sees high usage rates of Conqueror and has a massive built in true damage nuke as well as two forms of % hp damage, one of which even heals her and is AoE; although she also can and does take comet and phase rush among other runes.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20181 votes

https://www.op.gg/champion/camille/statistics/top

A little less than 10% of Camille players in Korea take Conqueror. (I'd use Global rune stats if I knew a site had it, but Korea is considered the "best region" so it isn't too bad to use.)

Also... No one takes Phase Rush... according to the rune stats...

GigglesOJun 23, 20181 votes

Why would you take phase rush when you can just kill them instantly?

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20182 votes

exactly

but hey, I was unironically downvoted for stating statistics that I even linked...

GeneseidJun 22, 20186 votes

We must play a different game because whenever I play Kayle i melt virtually everything on screen regardless if they are building defense or not lol

GigglesOJun 22, 20183 votes

I get melted by Kayle so...

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20181 votes

At 3-4 items or at all 5? Are you building Adaptive Helm? Does she have Conqueror?

GigglesOJun 22, 20181 votes

How am I supposed to build defense and kill her at the same time? I can’t afford more than one MR item or she wins 100% of the time...

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20181 votes

Ok, I thought we're talking about a tank.

Who are you playing?

GigglesOJun 23, 20181 votes

Mordekaiser Sion Garen Alistar Chogath Nautilus

I get schrecked anytime I try to play those guys into her, she just melts me since I can only ever get 1 maaaayyyyybe 2 MR items

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20182 votes

Mordekaiser : You're kited into oblivion. Not much you can do, but Morde wasn't good top lane anyways.

Sion : Rush item 3082 and item 3047 since a large portion of her early game damage is physical and Tabi's passive reduces her E damage. Then go straight into item 3194 unless you've got a sizeable lead to do whatever you want, but buy it eventually. Use Warden's Mail to get Omen or Thornmail.

Garen : Refer to Morde, though maybe you can cheese with Ignite, idk.

Alistar : That's a support. Not really sure what to say other than buy Locket for hybrid resists?

Chogath : Same thing as Sion, but also Cho'Gath does outscale Kayle. You can probably get a Thornmail over Omen if you like having more armor to block BoRK.

Nautilus : Naut is kinda weak to I'd expect to get shredded by anyone in general, but if he wasn't, you'd probably do the same shit as Sion, but Naut is much worse to play into Kayle.

GigglesOJun 23, 20181 votes

You pretty much listed that all of them get Schrcked by Kayle... so which “tanks” beat her?

You must be talking about “tanks” Camille, Irelia, illaoi, renekton? Lol cause you just ruled out a very large chunk of tanks.

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20182 votes

Don't fucking insult me by saying I think "Camille" is a fucking tank.

Camille is a skill matchup, but seems to be Camille favored even if Kayle has mixed damage. Irelia wins against Kayle. Illaoi loses, but Illaoi isn't great. Renekton loses, but he can snowball it early.

GigglesOJun 24, 20181 votes

Sarcasm font didn't come through, neither did the "tanks" comment.

AirKingNeoJun 24, 20182 votes

Hard to see sarcasm online...

SithesisLordJun 22, 20182 votes

Conqueror is weak. That's just a fact based on stats.

What stats? Stats from champions? Champions that, while use Conqueror where also nerfed by Sterak's?

That doesn´t mean Conqueror is weak or that it isn´t a massive problem, because it is. Just make it an adaptive AD/AP rune and replace the true damage with adaptive %Pen. True damage is supposed to be unique, not thrown like rice on a wedding.

That's the weakness of mixed damage is that they have no options for pen.

Except Kayle can easily itemize towards %MPen with Void Staff or %ArPen with LDR/Mortal Reminder.

Heck, she can build both Staff and LDR and get away with it.

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20182 votes

Void Staff, while buyable on Kayle, still is a subpar purchase because you deal mixed damage. LDR is even worse.

Building both? That's ignorant thinking. You shouldn't talk about how a champion can be built if you don't even know the standard builds for that champion.

RalanrJun 22, 20182 votes

Wits end?

AirKingNeoJun 22, 20182 votes

Still flat pen, but then you're going a more magic build anyways and losing damage for going a defense item that falls off later anyways.

RalanrJun 22, 20183 votes

Wits end is more shred than pen. Combined with the shred on her passive, that should be a lot of MR lost.

GigglesOJun 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

losing damage for going a defense item that falls off later anyways.

That basically sums up defense items. Something that isn’t that effective and falls off...

NhifuJun 24, 20181 votes

You don't play Kayle stop spitting out nonsense.

Her core items right now are Nashor / Rageblade / Wits end.

You will never see a Kayle build void or mortal reminder.

SithesisLordJun 24, 20181 votes

You don't play Kayle stop spitting out nonsense.

You only played a grand total of 44 Kayle games, counting from Season 4 onwards.

Meanwhile

Her core items right now are Nashor / Rageblade / Wits end.

Nashor's and Rageblade, actually. With situational build past these two, boots included.

With Rageblade first item rush perfectly viable into some matchups as well.

It´ll either be Rabadon's, Runaan's or Wit's End, depending on what you need after core.

You will never see a Kayle build void or mortal reminder.

AP heavy builds with Rabadon's for a third item, which is very common right now do feature Void Staff as a 4th item.

And Mortal Reminder is outright better than Morello against heal comps because its cheaper, its GW lasts for two whole seconds more and its build path is better.