Buffing Garens lategame, without touching his early game.

Critmaster Garen··2 votes·633 views

after reading a lot of different suggestions, on how he could be improved, here is my take on the thing.

1.) changing his q slightly currently:

Decisive Strike Garen breaks free from all slows affecting him and gains 35% Movement Speed for 1.5/2.25/3/3.75/4.5 seconds.His next basic attack within 4.5 seconds deals 30/55/80/105/130 (+140% Attack Damage) physical damage and silences his target for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds.

Cooldown 8 seconds Range Self

changed to:

  • Cooldown changed to 11/10/9/8/7 seconds from 8 seconds
  • buff duration increased to 2.5/3/3.5/4/4.5 seconds from 1.5/2.25/3/3.75/4.5 seconds.
  • the cooldown starts immediately upon casting the ability, instead of after the movement speed buff expires

how will this affect his early game? barely: in effect, at rank 1 the down time on his q will be slightly increased by .5 seconds, since it starts at 11 seconds, and lasts until 8.5 seconds of the cooldown is remaining.

how will this affect his lategame? like this: if you manage to get close to the cdr cap, the cooldown of the q will be decreased to around 4.5 seconds, which is the same time as the speed buff duration. which means as a mobility tool, it will virtually have no downtime. much similar to how udyrs bear stance lets him keep running nonstop by lategame, if he gets close to the cdr cap.

2.) remove the self slow on his rank 5 spin

ive mentioned it a couple of times in other threads. one of the tweaks that could help him out lategame, would be the removal of the self slow on his rank 5 spin. for those who dont know what im talking about.

Judgement Garen rapidly spins his sword around his body for 3 seconds, [...] Garen can move through units while spinning but moves 20% slower when travelling through minions and monsters.[...]

the self slow was added as an early game mechanic, to reduce his ability to kite or chase down other melee champs through creepwaves during the lane phase. the problem with this mechanic is, that it still hinders him during the lategame, during jungle chases or teamfights down the lane. it easily happens, that you catch a jungle creep or a lane minion on the outer edge of your spin during a fight, and lose your ability to stick to your intended target. since it was only ever intended to impact the lane phase and not his lategame, i propose that the effect is removed upon reaching rank 5 of judgement. the earliest this could possibly be accomplished would be level 9, at which point most of the lane phase is already decided.

thoughts?

11 Comments

GloriousKaiser1 votes

To suddenly not be slowed while ghosting through minions seems too abrupt. If you made the slow reduction a gradual change, maybe. Or maybe just remove it period, I don't know why but minion block is getting worse every patch, I'd say that's more than enough of a prevention for kiting and chasing.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

To suddenly not be slowed while ghosting through minions seems too abrupt. If you made the slow reduction a gradual change, maybe. Or maybe just remove it period, I don't know why but minion block is getting worse every patch, I'd say that's more than enough of a prevention for kiting and chasing.

it might feel weird if its just removed on the final rank of the ability. but it also makes the most sense.

the buff to his ult should be enough to help out his early game imo. and since the spin is usually the ability that is maxed out first, a gradual decrease would already strongly improve his laning ability. i get why the slow mechanic is there. but thats also exactly why he shouldnt suffer from it through the mid to lategame anymore.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

So you want to keep the self-slow mechanic around until his laning phase ends? Understandable but wouldn't it be more favorable to remove it though? It's really annoying how kills escape me because I'm almost discouraged to chase through minions.

Also, I really think that Q would be too strong. A low CD skill like Nautilus' E is acceptable because it simply slows and allows for counter-action. But with that almost always Uptime cooldown would make Garen stick way too hard. I'm fine with having him reach mobile enemies, but I think he has to choose either sticking power or gap-closing. Not both.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

So you want to keep the self-slow mechanic around until his laning phase ends? Understandable but wouldn't it be more favorable to remove it though? It's really annoying how kills escape me because I'm almost discouraged to chase through minions.

Also, I really think that Q would be too strong. A low CD skill like Nautilus' E is acceptable because it simply slows and allows for counter-action. But with that almost always Uptime cooldown would make Garen stick way too hard. I'm fine with having him reach mobile enemies, but I think he has to choose either sticking power or gap-closing. Not both.

removing the self slow may sound nice, but its unlikely that riot will go for it. his laning phase is not where he needs significant buffs.

the constant move speed buff might sound strong. but there are a couple points to consider. first of all, it can only be reached by getting to 40% cdr. with the options available to him right now, that is easier said than done. youd probably have to go ionian boots to accomplish that.

second, when looking at his current strength lategame, he needs a pretty large buff to become relevant. when faced with champs like lucian, kallista, ezreal, jinx, even graves with strong kiting mechanics, garen would need a pretty large mobility buff to keep up with them. and even with this q, supports and carries bring enough kiting mechanics to make his life really hard. janna alone would still hard counter him, even with this q.

right now, garen can literally only make plays when flash is available to him.

even if he has it a little easier to stick to a target, his damage is still restricted by the cooldown on his e. you dont see udyr being a top pick, even with a stun attached to his constant movement speed buff.

and finally, his movement speed buff is actually not that special. 35% compared to shyvanas 6 second 50% ms buff for example, or trundle with his 40% for 8 seconds, on top of the slow on his pillar.

or if youre still not convinced, just compare a lategame garen to a latgame jax with a 5 second base cooldown on leap strike, and ridiculous duelling power. even with a constant uptime on his q, he would be less mobile and still doesnt deal as much damage. right now, a 6 item jax can just beat a 6 item garen simply by sitting in place and auto attacking through his spin, without even utilizing his mobility.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I sense a no self slow in Garen might be...interesting. Garen buys a homeguards and spins himself out of base.

LETTTT IT RIPPPPPPP

Teridax681 votes

On #1, the cooldown on a 7-second Q with 40% CDR would be 4.2 seconds, which would allow for a non-stop movement speed boost (which may be what you're looking for, though there's also the issue of overlapping enhanced autoattacks) Perhaps you should instead increase the cooldown to 12/11/10/9/8 and have the cooldown begin immediately, which would give him about the same cooldown early on and a significant late-game buff.

I agree with the removal of the self-slow, and to a larger degree I think it would perhaps be a better to remove minion block altogether: whenever it makes itself felt, it has a significantly negative impact on gameplay and enjoyment (everyone knows the pain that is creep blocking, especially when you or a creep wave goes on a weird path), it only truly puts melee champions at a disadvantage in lane when ranged champions already have a natural edge (especially low-mobility champions, who can't just jump over a wave to reach their opponent), and it forces some champions to bloat themselves with unit collision removal effects to sidestep this issue.

Regarding Garen , while these would be helpful to his late game, I don't know if these will fully address his core issue, which is the lack of a unique contribution he brings to late-game fights: he was designed to be a lane bully, and while he does that pretty well, he also turns into a ball of stats later on. Even Renekton , one of the biggest lane bullies around, brings something to the table late-game with his double-dive, armor shred and stun. I think his W's the main problem, since it's the most passive of his skills and pretty much just a pure tankiness amplifier, and perhaps it could be changed to something that allows him to better express his power over his enemies.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

On #1, the cooldown on a 7-second Q with 40% CDR would be 4.2 seconds, which would allow for a non-stop movement speed boost (which may be what you're looking for, though there's also the issue of overlapping enhanced autoattacks) Perhaps you should instead increase the cooldown to 12/11/10/9/8 and have the cooldown begin immediately, which would give him about the same cooldown early on and a significant late-game buff.

I agree with the removal of the self-slow, and to a larger degree I think it would perhaps be a better to remove minion block altogether: whenever it makes itself felt, it has a significantly negative impact on gameplay and enjoyment (everyone knows the pain that is creep blocking, especially when you or a creep wave goes on a weird path), it only truly puts melee champions at a disadvantage in lane when ranged champions already have a natural edge (especially low-mobility champions, who can't just jump over a wave to reach their opponent), and it forces some champions to bloat themselves with unit collision removal effects to sidestep this issue.

Regarding Garen , while these would be helpful to his late game, I don't know if these will fully address his core issue, which is the lack of a unique contribution he brings to late-game fights: he was designed to be a lane bully, and while he does that pretty well, he also turns into a ball of stats later on. Even Renekton , one of the biggest lane bullies around, brings something to the table late-game with his double-dive, armor shred and stun. I think his W's the main problem, since it's the most passive of his skills and pretty much just a pure tankiness amplifier, and perhaps it could be changed to something that allows him to better express his power over his enemies.

as far as the overlapping attack damage boost goes, mechanically its a buff. it would simply be refreshed. so there no exploit scenario, where he would double buff his attack damage.

a constant up time on his movement speed at cdr cap is exactly what im looking for.

as far as his unique contribution goes, i think they did that pretty well when they buffed his passive. hes a beast when it comes to fighting poke comps. can easily body block a couple of spells, go into the backline for a couple seconds, heal up and go back out into the front.

he can hit and run during teamfights. get in, deal damage and run around a corner to heal up, before he gets back in. his passive also allows him to push an andvantage after a won fight, since he rapidly heals up and can tank a turret for his team to take down if necessary.

the passive also massively helps his split pushing ability.

more mobility through an increased uptime on his q would support this playstile.

Teridax681 votes

I'm not really concerned about stacking so much as I am about consecutive Qs: having no downtime between them could potentially lead to a more egregious version of old Rengar 's triple Q, where Garen could pre-charge his Q for an initial enhanced autoattack and silence, and follow up immediately after to silence his target for up to 5 seconds.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not really concerned about stacking so much as I am about consecutive Qs: having no downtime between them could potentially lead to a more egregious version of old Rengar 's triple Q, where Garen could pre-charge his Q for an initial enhanced autoattack and silence, and follow up immediately after to silence his target for up to 5 seconds.

thats not how it would work.

the movement speed buff lasts 4.5 seconds. the silence lasts 2.5 seconds without tenacity. so still at least 2 seconds between each q for the opponent to react.

if garen charges up his q, and silences, then immediately follows up with a silence, the duration would overlap and it would still last 2.5 seconds.

Teridax681 votes

Activating Q causes Garen's next autoattack within 4.5 seconds to deal bonus physical damage and silence his target. Activating Q, using it on your opponent 2 seconds later, and immediately following up with another autoattack as your Q comes off cooldown would create a continuous 5-second silence, which means it may not be the best thing to actually reduce Garen's Q cooldown.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Activating Q causes Garen's next autoattack within 4.5 seconds to deal bonus physical damage and silence his target. Activating Q, using it on your opponent 2 seconds later, and immediately following up with another autoattack as your Q comes off cooldown would create a continuous 5-second silence, which means it may not be the best thing to actually reduce Garen's Q cooldown.

i can see how that would add up.

though the removal of the self slow would still help.

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