How can they call anything balanced when people scale with defensive stats?

Touch My Box··2 votes·531 views

Pick a damage champ. Build a damage item. See damage increase.

Pick Tank. Build Tank Item. See toughness and damage increase.

They are literally getting twice as much of an effect from the same item. That is the definition of unbalanced.

Originally the concept of high defense characters fought was, "I will build defensively, allowing me to deal a lesser amount of damage than if I built damage items, but it allows me to deal that amount for a longer period of time."

Whereas damage oriented characters worked by " I will do a higher amount of damage and try to kill my opponent before they can kill me."

Right now with people like Volibear and Mundo it is "I will build defensively, dealing the same amount of damage as if I built damage items and allows me to deal that damage for a longer period of time."

OR simply "I am Dr.Mundo. I press E and gain the equivalent of all your damage items, but retain the effects of my purely defensive items."

What. The. Fuck.

Ability power gives you... damage to abilities. Attack damage gives you damage on your attacks. Health gives you health.*

*Unless you're a tank, then it gives you all of the above.

EDIT: This isn't even factoring in the fact they get higher base stats than everyone else aswell.

16 Comments

TehNACHO3 votes

Or, you know, there is the deal that most Juggernauts are amazing at fighting but don't have nearly as much utility as a real tank or power at dealing with objectives.

Erockandroll2 votes

It's more an issue of proportions.

Even when Juggernauts have damage that scale with health. That's completely linear in scaling. Compared to an ADC who rockets in damage because AD, AS, and crit chance all synergize with eachother.

Sure Juggernauts may have both Defensive and offensive scaling off a defensive stat. That doesn't mean they scale harder than an ADC.

Revali1 votes

Tanks, or otherwise known as juggernauts summoner 3

Touch My Box1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks, or otherwise known as juggernauts summoner 3

Juggernauts are different. Mundo isn't a juggernaut. He's a Joke. He literally gets MINIMUM 100AD. 50% health it's 150 AD for 5 seconds with a 7 second CD. That is literally 2 bloodthirsters worth of damage. Do they not realize that?

Ralanr1 votes

He's an AP juggernaut who has health scaling abilities. Not all juggernauts are AD.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Tank = Draws enemy aggression via threat of locking down targets. often has a powerful gap closer allowing them to force their threat upon the enemy: think alistar, malphite, maokai, zac) WILL NOT DIE QUICKLY

COMMON STAT TEMPLATE: High base AD and HP, Med Movespeed. Promotes resist stacking.

Juggernaut = Draws enemy aggression through the threat of death if allowed to walk up to their targets. Often (but not always) lacks significant/hard mobility and more than one hard / significant cc. but has built in sustain or damage mitigation (shield, healing, % dmg reduc) to enable them to push through enemy fire. Think Darius, Garen, Olaf, Mordekaiser, Nasus. WILL DIE QUICKLY IF FOCUSED AND NOT ALLOWED TO UTILIZE THEIR SUSTAIN (mordekaiser building his shield by hitting you, dodging darius Q, staying out of olaf attack range etc)

COMMON STAT TEMPLATE: Med / High base AD and HP, High base resists. Promotes HP and damage stacking.

These classes are quite different, if you bother learning about champ strengths and weaknesses rather than just crying about things you cant oneshot as zed summoner 3

Touch My Box1 votes

If you're tank enough to survive a pure damage dealers burst, why should your burst be high enough to 100-0 them?

Spaceman5pff1 votes

The only Juggernaut you can actually 100 to zero burst a squishy with is mordekaiser, and that takes alot of setup and situational shit. The rest of them take several seconds to kill you and are largely foiled by properly used hard cc / hard mobility.

Before you say "yeah thats the issue no hard anything means u die" Well that is a tradeoff you have to make!

cuddlykitten41 votes

Nasus

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Unless stupidly fed, that doesn't happen. Not since the removal of his ability for the stack-based damage of Q to crit champions. It can still crit minions / monsters though.

Edit: he also fits the most of CC him and most of his tankiness is gone via his sustain. He is also greatly hampered by a QSS or cleanse

cuddlykitten42 votes

To qualify as a tank you also have to have some form of multi-person CC. Riot released a thing about it around the juggernaut patches explaining what they define the roles as.

Ralanr1 votes

I think they need a dev blog to explain the roles again.

BadmoonBC1 votes

I started playing this game a year and a half ago. And from that time I have always said that if a tank is going to build full tank then they shouldn't be able to put out crazy damage, but in this game they can do just that. Low Elos cry about assassins, due to the snowball and mobility. But in my opinion the most unfun thing is getting ready to play the game and seeing that my team has 1 tank and the enemy team has 3, so I already know we lost. And yea there's exceptions to the rules but honestly, the tankier team is usually the winner. They merged thornmail and some tank items, but it's not the tank items that need nerfed, it's the damage the tanks put out. It's also the shit nerfs to last whisper and void staff. Idk just my two cents.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

people tend to look at ratios of damage/defense in a vacuum while ignoring other factors that play into a champions power budget.

there was a patch, when ahris winrate skyrocketed to 57% in solo que. the same patch she recived damage nerfs on most of her major abilities, accompanied with some utility buffs. everyone expected her to be trash tier because of the reduced damage, when she jumped to one of the highest winrates at all times.

damage and defense isnt everything that makes a champion strong. in fact, certain support champions have had phases where they were overpowered without having either.

{quoted}

It's more an issue of proportions.

Even when Juggernauts have damage that scale with health. That's completely linear in scaling. Compared to an ADC who rockets in damage because AD, AS, and crit chance all synergize with eachother.

Sure Juggernauts may have both Defensive and offensive scaling off a defensive stat. That doesn't mean they scale harder than an ADC.

also, this is another major point.

linear damage scaling vs. multiplicative scaling. a champion can scale offensively with a defensive item and still end up weaker than an adc who builds a combination of crit, attack speed, armor pen, ad and cdr.

stats that all synergize with each other and multiply each other.

Touch My Box1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wLi3u5Jy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-25T16:07:02.481+0000)

people tend to look at ratios of damage/defense in a vacuum while ignoring other factors that play into a champions power budget.

there was a patch, when ahris winrate skyrocketed to 57% in solo que. the same patch she recived damage nerfs on most of her major abilities, accompanied with some utility buffs. everyone expected her to be trash tier because of the reduced damage, when she jumped to one of the highest winrates at all times.

damage and defense isnt everything that makes a champion strong. in fact, certain support champions have had phases where they were overpowered without having either.

also, this is another major point.

linear damage scaling vs. multiplicative scaling. a champion can scale offensively with a defensive item and still end up weaker than an adc who builds a combination of crit, attack speed, armor pen, ad and cdr.

stats that all synergize with each other and multiply each other.

Just like Armor and health scale with eachother. I've showed time and time again how a single armor item can reduce an ADC crit to 500tops.

200 armor (most melee champs have around 90. Frozen Heart gives 90. Arnor Runes give 9. Mastery Tree gives you 5%. That's 199) That's a 66% reduction in physical damage taken. Let's be super fucking generous and give the ADC 500AD. 5002.5critdamage is 1250damage. 12500.33 is 412.

Let's say they get LDR. That means your armor is now 150. That's a 60% reduction.

5002.51.15 (LDR bonus) is 1438. After armor your crit is now is 575. That's with a single armor item and a near unobtainable 500AD. Regular build gives 360.

Just food for thought about how little you hit for.

You can give me any ADC build and ill show you how their damage is RELATIVELY null.

Touch My Box1 votes

So becuase we call him a juggernaut its okay that he gets all this free damage without any drawback?

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