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Is the amount of CDR in league healthy or necessary?

YoungFarmer··42 votes·4,022 views

back when I started league (season 4) very very few items had CDR on them, probably not many more than 5 items. It was nice, generally no one ever had 40% CDR it was super rare to ever have more than 20.

Now fucking everyone and their uncle has 40% CDR, in fact you usually end the game with over capped CDR.

item 3001 item 3194 item 3504 item 3174 item 3060 item 3102 item 3812 item 3147 item 1400 item 3508 item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 item 3401 item 3092 item 3110 item 3152 item 3025 item 3158 item 3109 item 3100 item 3156 item 3165 item 3107 item 3800 item 3065 item 3069 item 3071 item 3078 item 3083 item 3142 item 3050 item 3157

If I counted correctly 33 items have atleast 10% CDR on them many have 20% and quite a few runes also come along with CDR. Now I'm not saying ability spam isn't fun but is it really healthy?

Back In my day and i'm sure long before my time, people actually had to worry about saving their cds, and mana. I know many of you younger players won't believe this, but yes people actually used to run out of mana if they were not careful in lane, I know shocking. I remember the times of OLD when an Azir would do one spell rotation and be OOM in lane. I remember back in the older days when "I'm OOM" was said 100 times throughout the game. Any ways I'm getting off topic.

Anyone back in the day, CDs mattered you would save abilities for specific times, and would often get punished if you used ur precious ulti too early. Now everyone just wiffs ultis and abilites because cooldowns are honestly not important in these days of abundant CDR.

I personally believe for the good of league we need to go back to the days, where mana conservation mattered and cooldown reduction wasn't a stat slapped on to almost every item.

77 Comments

Ralanr18 votes

I’m still of the opinion that all CDR on items should be cut in half.

YokoNomi6 votes

{quoted}

I’m still of the opinion that all CDR on items should be cut in half.

I agree to the idea that something needs to be done to curb it a little bit, but that's going a bit too far. Don't some champions depend on that reduction?

Ralanr3 votes

Yes but with the amount of items they build with it while already getting 40% I don’t see the problem beyond it hurting a mastery that only highlights the problem.

YokoNomi5 votes

{quoted}

Yes but with the amount of items they build with it while already getting 40% I don’t see the problem beyond it hurting a mastery that only highlights the problem.

Two identical posts in response to my query at the same time. Oops?

I get what you're saying, but I feel like there needs to be more careful thought put into something like this.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Yea i dont think he really meant literally because 5% cdr items really. but about a 1/3 of items that have cdr need it gone and 1/3 of ap items that have cdr need to lose ap on them and get other 80-100 ap items that dont have cdr on them at all as options.

Votable Jester3 votes

I just know you're talking about item 3165 here [slayer-jinx-unamused]

That item is currently the crutch that allows mages to have a mid game still. If you were to reduce the AP on that, mages would lose wave control, poke, and burst, the 3 things that they are supposed to be best at.

I am in full support of a (carefully planned and tested) update to mage itemization in general. Still, the other AP/CDR items already have significantly lowered AP (-30 on the actual mage ones compared to the raw AP alternatives). If they lose much more, they'll either need a price drop (making them more oppressive early due to unique effects but much weaker in the late game) or they'll just cease being purchased altogether.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I usually do but i didnt specificly mean Morellos this time but that does need to lose 20 ap and a passive . or a passive and 10% cdr if you need new items or other items tuned then do that. I dont beleive that ap itemization is bad mages just want to 100-0 people in one combo which i dont agree with i think the 100-20 is still too strong

Votable Jester1 votes

If mages aren't able to burst properly, adcs will just take over the lane (Lucian, Corki, and Varus have already entered mid).

Besides, mages never 100-0 someone unless they're fed or the enemy hasn't built a single bit of defense to survive and is without a support.

LordGeovanni1 votes

We already know that adcs do too much upfront damage them not being fixed is not a reason to not fix mages.

Besides, mages never 100-0 someone unless they're fed or the enemy hasn't built a single bit of defense to survive and is without a support.

but there are classes like assassins that are not supposed to build defense but still are not supposed to be 100-0 by mages. Hell, no mage combo should 100-0 except in the situation that not only is the mage far ahead but the enemy is also far behind with no defensive items at all (being ahead doesnt mean that the enemy is behind). But most mages can 1shot through defenses mid game much more late game. Burst mages have the job of doing burst taking chunks off of the enemies hp in short rotations but when those are used there is supposed to be a long down time. not only does this downtime not exist they chunk for far more than they should. There is a reason why in other gameing genre's that Mobas draw from mages are crowd control classes there are several crowdcontrol mages in any one game but there is only one burst mage yet riot goes burst mage first and gives them crowd control to go with their burst.

Votable Jester1 votes

Assassins have their kits to save them from being 100-0ed. That's why they have so much mobility (to dodge skillshots), invulnerability, and stealth. If they do get caught by a mage, that's their problem.

The reason there is generally cc on burst mages is to make it so they can still do something when behind. If they were pure damage they'd have to either be incredibly overbearing with absurd damage or they'd become incredibly useless if they didn't get ahead.

Mages focused on crowd control are relegated to support btw.

LordGeovanni1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wKj0bpcH,comment-id=0001000000010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-23T04:32:11.446+0000)

Assassins have their kits to save them from being 100-0ed. That's why they have so much mobility (to dodge skillshots), invulnerability, and stealth. If they do get caught by a mage, that's their problem.

The reason there is generally cc on burst mages is to make it so they can still do something when behind. If they were pure damage they'd have to either be incredibly overbearing with absurd damage or they'd become incredibly useless if they didn't get ahead.

Mages focused on crowd control are relegated to support btw.

so you mean damage carries would have to be ahead to carry and thus when ahead not also be able to do everything you pick a tank for since tanking is a pipe dream now?

Adrian is Daddy1 votes

{quoted}

Yes but with the amount of items they build with it while already getting 40% I don’t see the problem beyond it hurting a mastery that only highlights the problem.

Ur right tho, but i wish as a compensation we could get scaling cdr. Having to wait till 10 min to get 10% cdr from runes takes sooooo long. Wish it was 1% cdr with every min caping at 10 min 10%

Ralanr2 votes

That defeats the purpose of the 10 minute runes.

Adrian is Daddy1 votes

{quoted}

That defeats the purpose of the 10 minute runes.

Ik it does but some champions feel better having early game cdr, Nidalee/nunu/riven/darius. I feel like at 10% it doesnt really matter that much anyways I still take it tho FREE DMG!

Ralanr2 votes

But you take the 10 minute runes to sacrifice early game power.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Idk man, I rarely hit 40% in items, cause I need more raw damage from items and runes.

Moello, spec shoes, liandyrs, good, deathcap, and either zhonyas or veil

wildfox9910 votes

i think building CDR should be a choice not a must

if every role with almost every build gets 40%CDR so easily,just lower every ability CD and remove it (and it would be the same)

if i'm playing a mage,i can get mr from banshee but i'm giving up some damage and some armor for not to building zhonya,if as fighter i build some defensive items i'm giving up some damage,all stats that you can get but they feels like a choice (i'm getting this instead of this),CDR is everywhere so in so many cases you are not choosing it you are literally forced to get it because it's everywhere and items don't allow you to get something rather this CDR (for example katarina sometimes will end up with 20%CDR that would be happily replaced with some AP or resistances) i mean,while it's nice that you can reach 40-45% CDR,it's not nice that everyone can cap his CDR so easily instead of getting a specific build for doing it

Votable Jester1 votes

AD champions have to spec into CDR still.

Supports, Tanks, and mages though generally don't have an issue.

It also works as a method to control what order players build stuff in. If players feel the need to rush 40% CDR, they could tailor CDR onto items that they deem healthy for the early/mid game while shifting it away from the more late-game stuff.

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wKj0bpcH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-01-06T12:13:48.600+0000)

AD champions have to spec into CDR still.

you mean ADCs maybe (and yet only if they want 40%cdr),as others mentioned there are many AD cdr items for assassins and fighters :

item 3158 item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 item 3812 item 3156 item 3078

Votable Jester1 votes

Yeah but even then, the CDR being on some and not others can heavily influence build order.

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wKj0bpcH,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-06T21:26:07.733+0000)

Yeah but even then, the CDR being on some and not others can heavily influence build order.

that's mostly because CDR items (especially the ones with 20%CDR) are the most cost efficient items of this game (ofc after crit items) and because riot wanted them to be builded early (take morello as example)

assassins atm build an early item 3147 for the passive damage not for the CDR trinity bruisers build item 3078 because well,as the name says it's their core item,they want sheen passive and its stats as soon as possible AD bruisers want item 3071because it's so cost efficient and they need the armor penetration from its passive mages needs item 3165 for mana sustain and high AP on top of this CDR (and it's as well an high cost efficiency item)

it woud change the build path for only few champions that really need this CDR (i mean when it's a core stats,like for riven),for the others it wouldn't change much their builds

Votable Jester1 votes

If there was CDR put on ROA, Luden's, Void Staff, etc., I think a lot of mages would just grab a tear (if even that) and rush those instead. CDR is incredibly valuable as it works well with base damage on abilities, much like magic pen does.

Also beyond the first item, assassins generally build item 3142 instead of item 3814 (because of both the movespeed and CDR). Imagine trying to lane against a Zed that had a spellshield on his second item though. Sure he'd lose out on roam potential, but he'd be incredibly oppressive in lane.

As you said, Riot wants these built early generally. Gold efficiency is core for that, and CDR makes them more gold efficient without giving them more raw, oppressive stats.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm your lux Annie you need cdr

Raiyza9 votes

The problem is that theres no real tradeoff.

You should have to sacrifice something in order ot be able to spam your abilities.

KlydeFrog1 votes

There all generally expsenive being the trade off

Raiyza1 votes

Yes, but not stat wise. Each item gives significant stat bonuses alongside the CDR.

Duskblsde for example, provides ward detection, CDR, and a massive damage bonus on next attack. Plus, damage stats AND lethality.

Why even bother going anything else?

You should have to sacrifice. For example, eaach item that provides CDR should provide much smaller stat bonuses. Zhonyas should provide only 40 AP, not 100. If you want all that damage, buy Rabadons.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Hence why ie is a useless item to rush it's like deathcap it doesn't really provide you with anything

Raiyza1 votes

I didn't mean rush IE, but my point is that duskblade is in every single AD BUILD because of what it gives. There's no decision making

"Hmm....I need CDR...but I also need damage..." Duskblade gives good amounts of both. No reason not to buy it.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Ie and death cap are stupid items to rush . I'll go duskblade or essence reaver . The build I use on my adcs is duskblade ghost blade static greaves and the last 2 items fluctuates . Some times I'll go runaans and reaver . Transcedence use. Or Lord Dom and blade of the ruined king .

Pumping Iron7 votes

Back In my day

https://imgur.com/Dv4ZqM0

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

The amount of CDR WOULD be fine if mana costs mattered more, if someone wanted to invest in CDR so they could spam their abilities more in a short amount of time BUT it also came at the cost that they in turn would have almost or no mana left afterwards then it would be fine as a strategic choice.

In other words, offensive items with mana or mana saving properties could be far improved if they were separated from CDR, it would make it so if you want to last a long time with spells then you'd build a mana item but if you wanted to spam a lot in a short amount of time then you'd go for CDR. This could also be a good way to help differentiate AP Mage builds from AP Assassin builds again.

Void Baboon RF4 votes

It's unhealthy only if you played league from season 1 and understand that morello's game and meddler's game are 2 completely different and incompatable games. Meddler wants to turn league into a mobile game, which is why cdr is so prevalent. Cooldown requires you to think before you do things. That's bad according to meddler the janna player.

Woodakoodashooda4 votes

CDR seems to be attached to a multitude of items simply because it's the stat that Riot cares the least about when compared to Armor, Magic Resist, Damage, Ability Power, Life Steal, Critical Chance, and even Lethality.

They slap it on just about anything to accomplish two things.

  1. To provide an excuse as to why the item costs roughly 3,000 gold in game.

  2. To entice players into working around the CDR cap by selecting the 2, 3, or (rarely) 4 items that will provide them their max CDR.

I, however, find certain CDR items so cost effective that building more than 40% CDR despite the cap has proven efficient.

Lethality Jungle Build here.

item 1400 item 3117 item 3147 item 3142 item 3071

Despite the items going over 40% CDR, the Black Cleaver still takes what would be 30% and makes it into 40% and seeing as how it is one of the most cost effective items in the game, the 10% CDR I do not receive isn't too big of a waste when you consider everything else the build provides.

I think items with more than 10% CDR should probably have it reduced to 10% CDR and items that already have 10% CDR are already balanced enough as it is.

This would force players to use up 4 of 6 item slots just to reach Max CDR as opposed to the minimum of 2 and the average of 3. Items that have their CDR cut could have their cost reduced. I don't know how much would be the right amount, but I figure it could be 100, maybe 200 gold.

Azadethe4 votes

Tbh, I've played since season 4 too. Most of the current CDR existed then. The primary exceptions were the AD items that give lethality. When they or their equivalents were Armor penetration, they didn't have CDR. But, most of the other items did exist, and Mages DID get to 40% cdr quite often. And, it wasn't uncommon for Jungler AD's to at least get 30% CDR: Zephyr, Trinity, and Frozen Heart or boots.

The reason you're complaining about it now is more or less because Transcendence has made it much stronger. You can build a hybrid or tank build right now and pump in damage that didn't used to exist.

But..... then again..... you can also pump in a crap load of damage on an ADC or assassin now too. CDR damage is buffed. Lethality/Duskblade is buffed to the point ADC's rush it instead of going crit. Crit items are also buffed, twice as strong on the damage procs on Zeal items.

This isn't just a CDR problem. This is an acceleration of power from all power sources.

(for those who don't know what I'm referring to: Statik Shiv used to have about 1/2 its current pre crit magic damage, at 100 damage per proc. it was dramatically boosted about the same time they introduced Rapid Fire Cannon. At the same time, RFC can also create situations where someone without one has no counterplay).

XeroKimo1 votes

I'm pretty sure season 4 still had cdr items scarce, it was at the start of the adc update was when cdr became more frequent in items

Our 20% items were item 3165 item 3174 item 3071 item 3115 item 3110

10% cdr were item 3065 item 3142 item 3401 item 3092 item 3069 item 3025 Zephyr Pretty sure some jungle items also had cdr

Azadethe1 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure season 4 still had cdr items scarce, it was at the start of the adc update was when cdr became more frequent in items

Our 20% items were item 3165 item 3174 item 3071 item 3115 item 3110

10% cdr were item 3065 item 3142 item 3401 item 3092 item 3069 item 3025 Zephyr Pretty sure some jungle items also had cdr

Technically Trinity Force didn't have it until late 2015, so you have a mild point (long enough to feel like forever)

Some of these changes were so that Riot could bring down the damage of the item the CDR was added to, btw. Almost every CDR change was the result of a removal of AD, or AP from an item. Sheen lost 20 AP. Armor pen items lost 15 AD. Zhonya's lost 30 AP. Abyssal lost all its AP. Banshee's lost some AP.

So basically what Riot has done: remove damage, add cdr, but give the option to get that damage back if you get a specific rune.

Keep in mind.... the items you just listed are still the core CDR items everyone uses, and used then. Tbh, I can't remember a time when AD's or junglers didn't build Spirit Visage or Frozen heart along with Black cleaver or Youmuu's.

So capping or close to capping CDR isn't anything new. What's new is.... the ability to do it on an all out AD item build (AP already did CDR and had the AP)

XeroKimo1 votes

Capping cdr on tanks was rough, cause they only had spirit and frozen heart back then, it was a choice between being able to cc more, or being able to tank more, since frozen heart isn't a good rush, and spirit only against mages, and iceborn didn't scale with armor back then. Frozen wasn't also built often unless the enemy ran at least 2 AA based champions, but even so, tanks mostly stuck to 10% cdr at the time

For mages, it was definitely easy to cap, since they just had to run Morello + Athenes, but that hurts early game damage in favor of sustained damage like we have now, and most of the time they only run 1 or the other some mages would choose to opt out for it in favor of getting higher ap items which made them have to manage their mana more carefully in favor of burst damage, or hp + ap items, like roa and rylais, which helps in sustained battles. So most mages would only run 20% cdr, unless they decide to go for ionian boots, and/or scaling cdr for the other 20% APs didn't cap on cdr super easily until the mage update

Adcs had absolutely 0 access to cdr, until yommuu's became a niche popular item on them, and the adc update

Supports would run from anywhere of 10% cdr to max cdr depending on which type

In all honesty, I think assassins were the only ones that actually had optimal path to 40% cdr easily, Yommuu's, BC, ionian or cdr runes, and they could go full damage right after that.

What you say is true, capping cdr with damage is definitely new, actually it's more of capping cdr with optimal paths per class more of what it is, cause even tanks couldn't cap cdr unless they didn't want to get a health + resistance item, or a damage item, ap champs had the choice between spammability, burst or sustain for early game, but now it's more of all of them together. The only good thing that came out of this IMO is making caster adcs viable since they get their dps increased, and supports not relying on other classes for cdr. But most items should lose their cdr again, or have new items that have no cdr but with higher stats, so we can choose again between spammability, burst, or sustain

SciFi Scrivener3 votes

I understand your point, and agree with you on a lot of it. My concern would be if you reduced the CDR that players could get the auto attack ADCs would run rampant. That would have to slow down the attack speed of those champs, and the items that add to it.

KirotheImmortal3 votes

Nah its healthy. Its easier to balance this way because now they just manage Spells at 40-45% cdr. If items where cut then they would have to manage the full build that champ will have weather it will have lots of CDR or none. as soon as they balance for none people will build cdr and that character would be busted. I believe this happend alot before.

YoungFarmer2 votes

{quoted}

Nah its healthy. Its easier to balance this way because now they just manage Spells at 40-45% cdr. If items where cut then they would have to manage the full build that champ will have weather it will have lots of CDR or none. as soon as they balance for none people will build cdr and that character would be busted. I believe this happend alot before.

Yah but you don't balance for none thats the thing. Back in the day when CDR was limited in season 4, all high elo riven builds took CDR runes, CDR boots, and one of the few items that contained CDR.

o brigid o3 votes

times of OLD

.

Azir

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Kyunsei3 votes

If everyone have CDR, then no one have CDR.

Mos Deadly982 votes

item 3056 you missed this one. Seriously its such a good item. Building it on fighters brusers or the other plethera of shit offlcasses breaks the item.

Entheos Geon1 votes

item 3115 too.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yeah, but Nashors is an item built by 2 champions. The item doesn't need changes.

Mos Deadly981 votes

kayle diana teemo morde and azir? Idk i think ohmwrecker has alot less built.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Morde, Teemo, and Diana don't build Nashors.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Diana doesn't build nasors? Lol What? It's one of her core items.

Terchio2 votes

Only reason I ever hated CDR was because it was extremely easy to max, with half of the cap available on quints and masteries alone, able to max by endgame with maybe one light CDR item if you spent Glyphs as well. Now it at least feels like a build decision. Kinda easy to me: If you are in danger of maxing, forego heavy CDR items like item 3071 item 3165 item 3078 item 3025 item 3115 . Some of those could maybe lose some effectiveness, at least setting their primary purpose to being CDR (more akin to Frozen Heart's purpose... I don't think item 3071 item 3078 should be that high, at very least). If you really can't find a way to avoid maxing CDR, grab Sorcery as a second tree to get some bite out of the over-balance with Transcendence.

Separate notes on CDR:

Transcendence needs reworked somehow. It's nice that it's a fully CDR rune, but the two bonuses don't even interact favorably. The 10% CDR is typically used more as a bridge to fill the gap, whereas the AD/AP bonus on overdraw is intended to not only bridge, but exceed your max CDR. Those bonuses should be separate, in my opinion, as they don't tend to work together particularly well, especially since they leave champions reliant on CDR for their builds waiting for any bonus at all until midgame. The inspiration bonus is almost hands-down better, even at such a small chunk, because the bonuses actually work together with CDR dependent champions.

Also, I feel like Blue Buff could use some endgame love (since it's not even truly that good early, anyways... basically not a kill threat), and boost max CDR on who grabs it, at least by half the bonus. Endless mana is nice, but easy enough to attain regardless, so CDR maxed champs could use a little incentive to prefer it over Red Buff, instead of actually feel bad for soaking up the caster buff with little to gain from it.

TrevorAlu2 votes

Wdym? Ever played Lux?

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