Can we stop acting like Sona never did damage?

RedCyclone·Jul 24, 2016·134 votes·7,747 views

I am aware that she is probably too powerful and will admit she's going to need nerfs in the future

But i'm seeing all these posts come up saying that she's doing too much damage as if her Q has been buffed recently, when in reality it got nerfed (she lost a chunk of initial Q damage and her Q onhit damage from leveling her ult but gained a little extra on her powerchord damage)

Season 1 Sona did a lot of damage Season 2 Sona did a lot of damage Season 3 Sona did a lot of damage Season 4 Sona did a lot of damage Season 5 Sona did a lot of damage She still does a lot of damage

You are most likely just seeing way more of Sona now, and since AP support itemization is better then it ever has in the past, you are probably seeing a ton of Sona's have like 300+AP shredding squishies, just like she did pre-rework, you just see way more of her now

181 Comments

1000angrybeesJul 24, 201635 votes

Literally everyone who complains about Sona's damage forgets 3 important things:

1.) Her Q isn't that damaging- especially after the nerf- it's just auto-targeted. Most of her damage is Staccato powerchord.

2.) 'omfg she chunked half my health at level 1' no, she didn't. Her damage at level one isn't very significant (unless youve got full AP runes and masteries, but thats not exactly the best idea). Level 4 or 5, if she has 3 points in Q she can chunk very hard- but why does no one even stop to think that her early game, where she's leveling up her damage spell, buying AP, and no one has decent health or MR that she won't do damage? Thats really the same for any other poke support.

3.) item 3100 . Lich Bane is where a TON of her power comes from. It's a 3k gold extension of her powerchord that adds 50% of her AP on to it. If she's doing damage mid/late game its because of this item.

She's all about level 3 to level 8. Every time she levels up her Q, and when she gets her ult is her biggest powerspike. No MR, lower health pools, and chances are she's buying Frost Queen's = good early game damage. If she's not buying AP items she's not doing damage. Simple as that.

Edit: Oh, i forgot one more thing. Since the changes, she's less powerful and 'oppressive' early game, and more damaging late game. Plus, most of her power is now shifted onto her Passive, making her less focused on Q and more focused on getting close to use her empowered AA. just a little food for thought

Edit #2: THUNDERLORDS. can't forget the mastery almost everyone and their deceased grandma picks

HayRossJul 24, 201613 votes

"Her damage at level one isn't very significant (unless youve got full AP runes and masteries, but thats not exactly the best idea)"

What do you mean full damage isn't a good idea? Damage kills people. Not damage doesn't kill people. WHAT'S THE BETTER IDEA?

Edit: God dammit, no matter how hard I try to be as sarcastic as possible, people just don't get it. IT'S A JOKE.

DarkSunSovereignJul 24, 201628 votes

Not dying. Sona has less hp than a cannon minion lmao.

KhadaverJul 24, 20167 votes

Literally everyone does in the first couple levels

B1naryB0tJul 24, 201610 votes

The first cannon minions have 805 HP, the champion with the most HP at level 1 is Tryndamere at 625.64 hp. So, yes, all champions have less HP than a cannon minion.

maikokkJul 25, 20161 votes

you dont see a cannon minion till lvl 3 so no. level 3 trynd with a dorans item has more health than the cannon minion.

B1naryB0tJul 25, 20161 votes

For solo lanes, sure, but botlane gets level 3 later. Either way most champions at level 3 when you take into account their growth will be equal to the cannon minion at best. I averaged all champion's base HP and averaged the HP per level (multiplied by 2 to get us to level 3) and the average level 3 HP of a champion is 719.53396952, which is still less than 805 HP.

Nobody1111Jul 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

For solo lanes, sure, but botlane gets level 3 later. Either way most champions at level 3 when you take into account their growth will be equal to the cannon minion at best. I averaged all champion's base HP and averaged the HP per level (multiplied by 2 to get us to level 3) and the average level 3 HP of a champion is 719.53396952, which is still less than 805 HP.

Not when you look at effective health! which adds armor into the mix.

ZarvanisJul 24, 20164 votes

She's a support. The main job of a support is to help the OTHER teammates get kills. That's why they have buffs, healing, and CC. They need to keep their Carries alive so they can get all the kills because a fed ADC or APC does significantly more damage than a fed support.

SSShutTheDuckUpJul 24, 201610 votes

Zyra Dead enemies cannot kill my ADC, so I tectonically keep them alive as well

ZarvanisJul 24, 20162 votes

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Dwight-Schrute-Thats-Very-True.gif?noredirect

PaladinNOJul 24, 20167 votes

Dead enemies cannot kill my ADC

"Did someone call for me?" ~ Karthus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSYg4z4UW4M

Milodic MellodiJul 24, 20162 votes

I think it's also true for Heimerdinger , KogMaw , and Sion (especially because the Passives of the latter two operate in the same manner as Karthus', while the first can still mow you down for a limited time because of the turrets.

PaladinNOJul 24, 20165 votes

Technically, yes, but they aren't dead, per say. Though I'm not so sure about Sion...

Figured Karthman fit the bill the most, being dead both before and after dying (does that even make sense!?), and would be the most obvious joke without overdoing or ruining it.

PaladinNOJul 25, 20164 votes

So what you're saying is that Sion can still mow you down after death, and Kog can maw you down?

Very punny - I like it! ^^

Ashe JungleJul 24, 201610 votes

{quoted}

She's a support. The main job of a support is to help the OTHER teammates get kills. That's why they have buffs, healing, and CC. They need to keep their Carries alive so they can get all the kills because a fed ADC or APC does significantly more damage than a fed support.

I disagree on two counts.

1. What you're talking about isn't a support, it's an enchanter.

Support just means the non-csing member of the team. They typically go bot with a marksman. Their job is the same as anyone else: to win by whatever means necessary.

Typically this involves buying a gold income item, sightstone, and a locket of the iron solari, and trying to funnel gold onto their marksman.

However, there are some supports that function by trying to shut down the enemy carry or roam to get other lanes ahead.

2. Even within the meta, different supports do the job differently.

Soraka tries to net kills for her marksman by allowing them to constantly trade and whittle down the enemy. Brand does it by harassing the enemy lane until they're low enough to go for the kill.

That's because Soraka is an enchanter and Brand is a mage, even if he's being played in the support role.

RalanrJul 24, 20166 votes

Being unable to dodge her Q is really what bothers me. You have no way to prevent the damage outside of a shield in a kit or item (which early game isn't strong or not there) so she just widdles you down when full AP and runs away whenever you try to punish her.

I also can never grasp the range on that ability, so farming becomes a gamble.

Skins ProjectJul 24, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Being unable to dodge her Q is really what bothers me. You have no way to prevent the damage outside of a shield in a kit or item (which early game isn't strong or not there) so she just widdles you down when full AP and runs away whenever you try to punish her.

I also can never grasp the range on that ability, so farming becomes a gamble.

Fizz Vladimir and many more :3

DeathToEcchiJul 25, 20166 votes

There are so many champs with targeted damage abilities. You might as well be talking about Cait autos for that matter.

The other thing is Sona's Q range is not that large. It seems larger than it is because the missile speed is somewhat low and she generally hits Q while fading back. This makes the range appear larger than it really is.

SpecterVonBarenJul 24, 201610 votes

She's actually doing less damage than before.

MavenSongJul 24, 20162 votes

She does less burst damage. with the cdr her DPS is larger tho... but its mainly the burst people complain about. but yes, you are correct, +1

RavenMagusJul 25, 20162 votes

She's definitely doing more burst damage than before this season, anyhow... but it's more Season 6/Thunderlords being what they are rather than the Sona changes.

Maximum MordeJul 25, 20167 votes

Sona, just like TF, has terrible base damage and ratios. Lichbane is the crutch that makes her damage passable, plus it's all auto targeted other than the ult, which makes it reliable.

Nerf the damage which is already low, and she goes back to being an Ult Bot, and never gets played outside of diehard fans. Don't believe me? Compare Sona damage and ratios to Nami and see which one combos harder.

AwesomeChadJul 24, 20165 votes

her utility got buffed...get it right people.

VesarixxJul 24, 20165 votes

If people are complaining about Sona's damage now then the burst she was capable of before the rework would have blown their minds, staccato used to double the damage of powerchord instead of increasing it by 40%. It's annoying, you have half the people complaining that she does too much damage and the other half telling me that I should be building utility instead of damage on her now because of the Q nerf.

LuggJul 24, 20164 votes

I guess people quickly forget that she was the #1 mid at one point.

Pika FoxJul 24, 20163 votes

Difference is now she can spam it far far far more often.

RedCycloneJul 24, 20163 votes

That's lategame when she hits 16, yes she can output more DPS then before her rework, but also remember that her 1-6 dps went way down and her 6-11 Dps is slightly worse then prerework

Pika FoxJul 24, 20161 votes

E got a pretty big buff, so its easier for her to get into and out of range to use it as well. And her post 11 is where the issues start really, as thats when youll have your lich which is a large portion of your damage combo.

RedCycloneJul 24, 20162 votes

Well E seriously needed a buff

And also if you look at her numbers after her hotfix, her in combat movement speed is actually lower then pre-rework since she can only get the self buff from being out of combat

as for the level 11 and 16 powerspike, that's the intentional effect of the rework, she's now a lategame powerhouse support just like the rework intended her to be

Pika FoxJul 24, 20161 votes

And? That doesnt mean its not too much. This still isnt taking into account the fact that her auras are and have always been oppressive and the largest issue with her kit.

Battlecast SonaJul 24, 20161 votes

but they haven't been since her rework.

when Riot changed the auras from "invisible free stats" to "visible and immediate effects that fall off" a huge portion of the problem with her auras was reduced. With the recent "no more longer auras for tagging allies" change, they've further addressed a huge problem with them (ease of applying auras from a safe range) by forcing Sona to be closer to the fray to buff all her allies up.

I think what you mean to say is "it's too bad she has all this utility on top of an instant cast AoE stun, otherwise she might actually not vary wildly between overtuned and undertuned"

Pika FoxJul 25, 20161 votes

Issue is shes never really been undertuned... she just feels undertuned because free auras make up a good portion of her power. The same as when soraka had a 100+ AR buff on her W. If your ability just gives free stats away, its active cant feel as powerful as a result, meaning the player will undervalue said ability because they do not feel the benefit from it.

Battlecast SonaJul 25, 20161 votes

her auras no longer give free stats.

I feel like you haven't actually read Sona's tooltips in a while, but her auras no longer do anything like Soraka's 80 Armor buff. Her aura W shield at level 5 is a good shield, yes, but the heal value is pretty pathetic in comparison to something like Nami W. What saves Sona primarily is her cooldowns, but that's always been the case.

And again, the reason that any of this feels oppressive at all is because you can't just kill her. She has an almost instant disengage/engage/everything tool on her R that makes fighting her incredibly difficult and requires very little skill to use properly. It's not fun to play against. I feel that the auras now with reduced time on the map and with each one being nerfed are in a fairly decent spot - but they'll never feel healthy when attached to Crescendo.

Pika FoxJul 29, 20162 votes

Shield is essentially health, a free stat

Q gives damage, a free stat

E gives movespeed, a free stat.

420 gramsJul 24, 20163 votes

I'm not saying she needs a Nerf, but a few games ago I had a zed mid against a sona who fed her, and she'd walk around 100 to 0 every body with just her q and r.

AbyssphereJul 24, 201616 votes

I mean, that is her entire burst rotation in fairness. A fed mid laner burning their ult for damage should probably be capable of getting kills.

TwinkieProJul 25, 20161 votes

Entire burst rotation is two buttons and a right click? Pretty sure every assassin puts in more work than that, let alone every mage too.

AbyssphereJul 25, 20161 votes

It's not about who puts in most work, it's about the use of resources. Yeah, Sona RQ auto with passive is easy as hell, not denying that. Point is that your post does still amount to little more than "I saw a fed Sona kill people using her entire combo". Like yeah, fed mid laners do that. I've seen a Zed use ult as a gapcloser and kill with just QE - that's a lot more impressive because if he didn't get that kill, his kit had a lot more damage potential left. Sona doesn't get to kill people while still having a damage button left.

It's just dumb to say a fed mid laner killing people with their entire burst rotation is indicative of a problem.

TwinkieProJul 26, 20161 votes

Sure, a fed midlaner, but when the support is doing it while keeping her allies healthy and chasing down the enemy team simultaneously, it's problematic. Couple that with a CC ult that can hold multiple enemies in place, she's not only good at killing enemy champions herself, but also making it easier for allies to do so.

For most midlane mages that come to my mind, Lux especially, it takes more than 2 buttons and a right click to be considered a full rotation. Everything but E is really thrown out, and all of them must be aimed, unlike Sona's Q W E and right click, making her burst several steps easier to do, albeit less damaging, but still powerful as they are incredibly spammy.

Zed could be fed, Ult the squishy, Q E and AA, maybe throw out his w and move out of the way if the enemy has lockdown potential. All that for one target, and requiring far more input, and I have to disagree as Sona doesn't have to wait nearly as long for cooldowns, nor put as much effort into her skill use except being in range and aiming R.

A good example is Viktor and Brand. Brand has to land 3 spells minimum to do full damage, 2 of which need a little aim. Viktor has to place his W correctly, keep his R on his target, and Aim his E while predicting enemy movements.

Sona's burst has always been problematic. She can't do as much sustained as most mages, so her damage over the course of a game is fairly low. What she lacks in DPS, She makes up for in not only Burst, but sustain and utility. That sustain does more healing than she does damage, and that's not a large margin.

AbyssphereJul 26, 20161 votes

Well the post we're talking about was discussing a mid Sona that was fed kills in the early game, so we're talking about a fed mid laner here. Support Sona is irrelevant here, and obviously doesn't 100-0 people. I don't really think it's inappropriate for a mid laner to be good at killing champions and getting champions killed either - almost every mage can do both of those things. Team utility and protection like Sona's heal/speed boost is rare but Lux mid and Karma mid are things so it's clearly not inherently problematic.

I already told you that I'm not discussing how much effort champions have to put into their burst, so Lux needing to press more buttons and aim more is irrelevant. No matter how few buttons or mechanics go into Sona's "full rotation", the point is that she needs her full rotation to kill people. Lux kills people with QER, Sona kills people with RQ auto-attack. At the end of the combo, neither of them have any damaging abilities left. Other champions can kill people while holding on to at least one damaging ability (someone like Syndra) or with a huge safety net of extra damage in case their initial burst fails (Zed).

Of course every other mid laner puts more effort and mechanical input into killing people than Sona does. Sona has no mechanics whatsoever in her burst. None of that changes "A fed mid laner just used their entire damage combo on a squishy and got a kill!" not being an offensive statement, though.

TwinkieProJul 26, 20161 votes

Lux and Karma cannot heal 5 people at once, nor spam it to the degree sona does. All they can do is shield, where 5 man shields are hard for lux but simple for Karma. While using a full rotation is fine to kill someone, the fact that her Q is essentially on a 1 second cooldown means blowing her load isn't that big of a deal.

What she lacks in a rotation like karma or lux she bags with a literal fuckton of utility, E to chase anyone, W to heal herself and her allies. I wouldn't be so upset about her burst if her utility was crap, but it is literally the best in the game right now and she is taking a nerf for it. She has been sitting at 53% winrate plus and that is fairly indicative of a problem in one or more areas. She either needs her burst set far down, or her utility, you can't have both. If you don't see a current 58% winrate as a problem, I don't know if there's anything else to be said.

AbyssphereJul 26, 20162 votes

Lux and Karma can both shield 5 people at once, just like Sona can. Sona cannot heal 5 people at once.

I'm not even arguing she's balanced. Of course if Sona is still rocking her 58% winrate then she needs nerfing. I'm literally just saying that a fed mid laner being able to 100-0 squishies using their full combo is not unacceptable or even impressive. Sona might be broken but an 800 AP Lich Bane/Luden's stacking Sona killing people with her entire damage combo isn't unacceptable.

TeallJul 24, 20164 votes

Thats how sona has been since forever. youre just seeing more of sona now. shes doing less damage than she did before this patch. and she already has more nerfs on the PBE. i really dont want to see riot gutting my main because they made her practically mainstream.

FastAsHeckJul 24, 20163 votes

to be fair sona can beat zed in lane, despite her low health

SaiannaJul 25, 20163 votes

Point is:

Sona used to also have something else than damage. Now when she's pretty much stripped from everything excpet damage, I'm not surprised Riot decided to nerf it.

I don;t remember any meaningful, positive, smart changes to Sona in last 3-4 years. She was just target of trash reworks pushing her into even more crappy position soon to be nerfed.

MorganKainesJul 25, 20163 votes

I shredded squishies long before these recent updates. And to be honest, I wish they had left her alone :( She's good now too, but because of all the complaints she will be nerfed soon, and honestly I'd rather have old Sona than a nerfed new Sona.

So yeah. This "Sona hurts now" thing is a bit baffling to me. I've always had people complaining to me she hurts, long before they changed her up a notch. And I am not sure I feel this is better, but then again I haven't been able to really test her ropes after the newest patch. We'll see :)

LaserDeathBladeJul 25, 20162 votes

I have no problem with the damage, because lately a lot of favored supports do more damage than mid top and jg put together Zyra Karma

What bothers me is the stupid amount of healing and movespeed she grants. Soraka pays a significant price for her heals, she's pretty much useless for anything else. Sona sustains just as well in lane, but also has a ton of utility and damage.