Can we honestly go through with these katawina changes?

ForgiveColour·Mar 9, 2015·3 votes·1,255 views

There is no point in telling me how much counterplay she has, because all the evidence shows that they are invalid. Look at katawina, always in the top 5 win rate. Remeber the dfg removal was gonna nerf her? Lol. Also her passive nerf which dropped her 0.5% in win rate which essentially means it did nothing. Katawina is also the most banned champion in asia and has a 90% ban rate in korea and china. Im using statistics from diamond league and im sure they know how to play this game more than we do.

35 Comments

KarlyrMar 9, 20153 votes

Basically they want to reduce her lanning poking abilities and make her an all-in threat. Their vision never change regarding this.

So the Q change is obvious. The W change is kinda normal since it will deal "more damage" because of the Q proc (overall means she has less lanning damage via her spells.) The E change is clearly to compensate for the lanning gutting of the 2 previous abilities. It gives her more occasions to proc her Q and to come back somewhat safely.

Because of the remade E, we might end up seeing more AD on Katarina players since she will be able to land a few AA before E'ing back. This wil also reduce the penta-resets since she will have to land a few AA if her target has more than 400hp (approx) remaining.

TL;DR More all in. More AD. More pain. Learn to kill her in lane.

MrPerson10Mar 9, 20153 votes

These changes are a little silly if you ask me.

her laning phase is already weak as shit (one of, if not the weakest, middle laning phase there is)

It comes down to a numbers nerf that everyone's been crying for because they can't learn that CC >kat.

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20152 votes

cc > kat

lol k tell that to diamonds across all region that are struggling to deal with her then. >55% win rate

MrPerson10Mar 9, 20151 votes

It's coming from someone who's played Kat upto a Diamond V level, thanks.

1 single form of hard CC hits, you get obliterated. Morgana q = death. Jinx e = death. Ryze W = death. Alistar q = death.

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20151 votes

well get on your diamond account and explain why she has >55% there

MrPerson10Mar 9, 20152 votes

Because she's a pain in the ass to hit with CC that's why.

90% of team fights you're going to see a lot of the hard CC thrown out early to mitigate the massive influx of immediate damage - leaving no CC for Kat. A good Kat is going to be patiently waiting and poking with Q before engaging, making sure that whoever of the carries has available CC up is the first to die.

For example; Orianna throws out shockwave in the midst of the team fight - there goes her CC. Morgana dark binding already out and on CD. ADC probably has some form of CC (ashe ulti, jinx e, varus ulti, etc) - naturally you target them, in this particular scenario it's because you're eliminating potentially deadly CC before switching to the other squishies.

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20151 votes

so shes op? yeah i agree

MrPerson10Mar 9, 20151 votes

Nobody said OP, just a pain in the ass to deal with.

If you get a team that has half a clue on how to deal with her though, you're golden. (Or on the other hand, if you're playing Kat and your team has a decent idea how to protect her from that CC, you should have an equal chance here)

Thing with Kat, you're essentially leaving your team to a 4v5 with minimal poke from you before diving into it. Patience is key.

Zair UmbrasMar 9, 20151 votes

So, what you're saying is that CC isn't her enemy because all you have to do is not be stupid and wait a couple seconds before you go in for a pentakill... Like, really. lol. All squishy champions get hit by CC and get nuked, though unless it's a hard CC, it actually doesn't stop Kat, simply delays her. Roots like Morg's Q and such, you can just press Zhonya's when they try to dogpile you, letting your team dogpile them. I mean, you can't use 'Just hit her with CC and she dies' because even other champions are designed and balanced around what they do, not based on if they get hit with CC and explode because let's face it, Kog and Varus would've been buffed dramatically if they were balanced the same way you're saying Kat is to be balanced by. They get hit with CC and blow up, so they can have large bases and ratios... However, they're usually mana-gated and CD gated. Kat has no mana and her CD's are pretty short considering she's manaless and has good ratios and bases.

All in all, you contradicted yourself and balancing around 'Gets CC'd and dies' is more of an excuse to give buffs to champs that need to be rebalanced to have some counterplay outside of laning phase. Every champion is gated by SOMETHING out of lane whether it be cool downs or mana and Kata doesn't have to worry about either of these. Even LB, another top ban right now, is mana-gated.

MrPerson10Mar 9, 20151 votes

All-in-all, you're blind. I specified hard CC twice, further amplified that specification when I brought up Morg's Q and Orianna's shockwave. Try that again.

On your LB note, LB is also one of the few assassins with a strong early laning phase - Katarina on the other hand, has the weakest in the game which she makes up for by having a strong cleanup.

Zair UmbrasMar 10, 20151 votes

You're obviously blind or a god awful Katarina. CC doesn't stop a Katarina. It can delay her for the length of the CC, but by no means does it ever stop her. She can unload all three abilities and do at least 2-3 ticks of her R, which does quite a lot mind you, before any CC hits her. If she's caught out BEFORE she's able to do things, that would be the same as ANY champion getting CAUGHT out before they're able to do things.

The average reaction time for even competitive players that aren't Faker is at least a second. In a second, a Katarina can Q+E+W+R. Her Q has a .6 ratio in total, W has a .25, E has a .4, and her R does .25 EVERY .25s and DOES DAMAGE WHEN PRESSED. This means in a second, a good Katarina will have all of the first three abilities tossed and used, totaling 1.25 PLUS a full second of her ulti, which is another 1.25, totaling 2.5x her AP, not including bases and penetrations. A standard Kat with two items, just a Rabadons and a Void Staff will have 400 AP. That's a base of 1200 damage from just her ratios, plus the bases, plus the penetrations... and when you do that on a squishy target like an ADC who maxes at around 1.8k health at level 18..?

Seriously... Katarina is fully capable of unleashing a LOT of near unavoidable damage because of how quickly she can unleash. Her only travel time is her Q and any of her abilities, including her R, can proc it. Unless the enemies have a lot of INSTANT CC like an Syndra E, Thresh E, Lissandra R, Malz R, and the like which have no travel time and can be used at a moment's notice without failing and are used on some one highly skilled, she's going to get off a huge amount of burst. In the time a Fizz would press W and Q back in the day and do about 1.75x AP, a Kat can Q+W+E+R since there's no such thing as a 'global cool down' and her abilities have no cast time, so they flow in perfect sync.

MrPerson10Mar 10, 20151 votes

I've made it to the Plat I - Diamond V promos twice using only Katarina, pretty sure I understand her far more than you do.

Her range is trash, and I mean absolute trash - the longest is a whole 700 units, which is her shunpo. A reposition which is getting its damage taken away and reduces 15% incoming damage for 1.5 seconds, next being her 675 range Bouncing Blade, 550 ult and 375 W

What does trash range give you? Extreme predictability.

A good Morgana is going to Q right where your target is about to be - the closest carry to you 9/10 times since you're not going to flash engage on 5 enemies that aren't all 1-2 hitters. How hard is it to Q to a carry as soon as you see Katarina's Q animation go out? Absolutely not hard at all.

Edit: let's not forget how much point and click CC there is in the game - particularly from Lissandra Chogath Pantheon etc etc - these are just 3 common picks I'm using as an example.

Zair UmbrasMar 10, 20151 votes

Pantheon has a wind up with his W and isn't exactly going to be in the backline trying to help peel for his carries. It would be a large waste of his potential as an initiator and one of the best backline destroyers. Cho isn't necessarily a popular pick though... He has a 7.7% in Gold and above, 6.9% overall pick rate. He's in the top 46 most picked champs, but... that's 45 other champs more popularly picked.

Lissandra is a popular pick, also a popular ban due to her high amount of CC and she is a direct counter to Katarina as well as any Assassin really since she removes their ability to Assassinate with slows, a stun, and a root. Her entire kit is pretty scary for assassins, so she's a logical counter, just like she's a logical counter to Zed, LeBlanc, and really anyone who throws out a combo to burst one person down. Due to her kit being very anti-assassin as a whole, you could use that logic to say no assassin would ever need a nerf because Lissandra exists.

Other picks that can counter Kat are Ahri, also a popular pick, but if she charms, she's no longer a threat to Kat. Fiddle, but he dives into your team so you can dive their backline in the mean time. Alistar, but he's not only uncommon, but he's on very large cool downs, having about 10 seconds. Lulu is a good choice, as she is against all Assassins. Soraka if she's not the main target to begin with and instagibbing due to innate squishiness. Kassadin if he's ever picked anymore, having a lower pick rate than Zac.

I mean, there's lots of insta-CC's, but most are on very large cool downs and there's very few that are actually a direct counter to a Katarina and most of them are who gets to face her in lane, which is the problem right there. If that person is taken out of the fight early or has to use their CC early or not on Kat, then they've now failed their job in countering Katarina.

There's very little counter play to Katarina. When a champion is labeled as 'Beat them in lane and GG' or 'You need instant, hard CC' and is balanced around ONLY that, that's not balancing. If your mid has to pick before Kat and doesn't choose Lissandra, Cho, Ahri, or LB, they're in for one hell of a laning phase because Kat can escape from nearly any gank if she just uses the laning phase to farm much like a Jax and Irelia would. Bad early games are hardly an excuse for giving some one a nasty late game. We've seen that problem with Ryze who got gutted to the core while trying to fix itemization with his kit. We saw this with Veigar who had to have his reliability nerfed, which went overboard. We saw this with so many champions.

MrPerson10Mar 10, 20151 votes

I didn't even read it more than just the first line of each paragraph cause I'm not feeling the text wall thing.

I never said she was easy to counterplay into, but those who are highly skilled know how to do so properly - and understand when a Kat comp is being picked, and pick appropriately to counter that with hard, point and click CC.

To add to this, I did read the bit about Ahri - she's a pain but not a real counter, just a difficult lane. You have to be used to Shunpo'ing close to but not on top of her, far enough away that you can effectively sidestep an incoming charm but close enough that your initial e/w combo still hits.

Zair UmbrasMar 10, 20151 votes

Counterplay has to be apparent. You shouldn't have to base your entire team to be a counter to one champion. No one champion requires the ENTIRE enemy team to pick champions against them. There's ones like Yi who do require more than one CC, but it doesn't have to be a point and click and an Exhaust does the trick just fine. Kat on the other hand, you can exhaust her, but what AP doesn't get a Zhonya's for moments like that?

There's just so little counterplay to Kat because she has no cast times, no delays, no mana, and her cool downs aren't even that long when compared to other champions. Her reliability is through the roof. The only time she doesn't carry is if the ENTIRE team picks and builds against her with MR and point and click CC's, early Lockets, and constantly playing passive any time she isn't in lane because her burst is pure AoE, so bot lane is an easy double kill if they've got half health, which isn't uncommon.

And for Ahri, yeah. You bait out the Charm. A good Ahri won't charm until Kat makes a move though unless they know for suuuuure they can get the kill. Annoying lane, not much of a counter, but it's near impossible to kill the Ahri if they're not being overly aggressive and farming properly.

LaowPingMar 9, 20151 votes

The thing that hurts kat is that she has to maintain her ult in order to deal real damage. That makes her more affected by cc than anything else. If she jumps in and gets hit during her ult, she's useless unless she can find someone low immediately. With ADC's they can always do damage since they most of there damage comes from right clicking (not all, but most). As a result, stunning them for a brief moment doesn't affect them very much. Kat needs time to work unless everyone is already low as hell and under those conditions anyone could rek, not just kat.

Zair UmbrasMar 10, 20151 votes

CC CAN delay a Kat and it can stop her R.... if it hits quickly... Her R does 35/55/75 plus .25x her ration every .25 sec and does a tick instantly, which means if she can get off at least 3/4 of a second, she'll have done 140/220/300 plus 100% of her AP, which is much more than the average ultimate when it comes to ratios.

AbyssphereMar 9, 20152 votes

Why do you want to go through with those changes other than thinking they'll make her worse? What about those changes sounds good to you? Will they accomplish anything more healthy than a simple number nerf?

TsugagaMar 9, 20151 votes

Huh o.o Her first blade deals lesser damage now and her Shunpo deals no damage? I know Kat is kind of "OP", especially against low CC comps, but these changes are weird.

LaowPingMar 9, 20151 votes

Are you upset at something specific or the entire thing? Her changes seem like a nerf if anything. Her W requires her to build AD to do real damage now and her shunpo doesn't do damage. It's a decent rework but I'm not sure what they plan on her doing now. Hybrid Kat maybe? More spin to win? Not sure why people ban her in asia. Any hard CC destroys her. I hope people play Kat, my Malzahar is waiting.

Alos, where are you from? Never heard Katawina. Kind of sounds like how Elmer Fudd would pronounce her name. (No offense).

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20151 votes

i want her to get nerfed, shes op everyone knows it, well maybe except the ap biased people. If hard cc really destroys her explain why she has >55% win rate in diamond hmm?

Katawina is how i say katarina just like kassadin >> kassawin

LaowPingMar 9, 20151 votes

She's not op, people just don't know how to handle her. She's good at snowballing but a lot of mid laners are. Not sure what's up with people in Diamond but they aren't exactly perfect. Even people in LCS makes mistakes. She's not op, just gank her early or counter pick her. If she can't kill her laner then she's guaranteed to roam. It's a very predictable pattern.

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20151 votes

you make diamond players across all region look retarded then. Its like you know better than them when she has >55% win rate in their elo

LaowPingMar 9, 20151 votes

Hate to burst your bubble but diamond players aren't exactly the Gods you seem the think they are. They are really good but they aren't gods. I've seen challenger player's streams and they still make simple mistakes. At no point did I make them look "retarded"

ForgiveColourMar 9, 20151 votes

individual sure. But its the entire league across all region cant find a counter to her. Do i need to define you what all region means?

Cuz1972Mar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

you make diamond players across all region look retarded then. Its like you know better than them when she has >55% win rate in their elo

Ashe is around 55% right now too. How would your nerf Ashe?

Cuz1972Mar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is around 55% right now too. How would your nerf Ashe?

And Blitz.

Cuz1972Mar 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And Blitz.

And Fiora.

ForgiveColourMar 10, 20151 votes

im talking about across all region that means china,korea, trash eu and with 90% ban rate in asia

PuaruMar 9, 20151 votes

I used to play a lot of Malz mid, and the problem with this is that yeah, you wreck her in lane. So she just says "fuck this" at level 6 and stops farming mid and starts farming your bottom duo.

LaowPingMar 9, 20151 votes

That's why you ward and follow her. If you let her roam she's a problem. If you notice she's not in lane, head to a pushed up lane and counter gank. Also, you're Malzahar, why is your lane not pushed? If you push the lane she has to stay or risk her turret. If she risk the turret, you can counter gank her and get a turret at the same time.

PuaruMar 13, 20151 votes

Ok, maybe you're just much better then me, but I can't just get deep wards in as a mid laner, especially with one like Malzahar, that early on. And if I push her wave in hard it leaves me exposed with only a flash to save me. Malz is not that big of a threat to turret that early on that she has to be so stalwart about defending it.

LaowPingMar 14, 20151 votes

Doesn't need to be a deep ward, just one by the river bushes. You just need to see her heading down the river so that you can ping your lanes and follow her. That also solves the problem of ganking if you pay attention to the mini map. Malzahar can also push lane from safety if you e and q the minions then walk back. If Kat ever tries to cs you punish her easy with those same spells. She's not a threat to other lanes until level 6 which you can reach before her by keeping her away from the minions or just outfarming her. Killing her is easy once you have your ult. If kat is not in lane. use e on a minion then go to which ever lane is the most pushed up (usually bot is her target since the adc is an easy kill for kat).