"Mages should get have more ap" -mage mains
Ok sure but we will need to take away your cdr then :^)
Ok sure but we will need to take away your cdr then :^)
The thing is that mages should be able to choose instead of having both or none.
Riot seems to be pretty dense about it. I have always mained mages since I was there (I leveled to 30 with Mordekaiser while I was discovering Xerath who I mained from S3 until Aurelion Sol release) and I noticed that no matter the patch/season I had no choices about the build. I experimented a bit with the mage update building Tear on Xerath but once again i was forced into Morello because all of the slef sustain and heals introduced a bit later.
What mages need are different choices about builds nd not more powerful items.
[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kqhFAcgJ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-12-01T20:14:01.157+0000)
The thing is that mages should be able to choose instead of having both or none.
Riot seems to be pretty dense about it. I have always mained mages since I was there (I leveled to 30 with Mordekaiser while I was discovering Xerath who I mained from S3 until Aurelion Sol release) and I noticed that no matter the patch/season I had no choices about the build. I experimented a bit with the nage update building Tear on Xerath but once again i was forced into Morello because all of the slef sustain and heals introduced a bit later.
What mages need are different choices about builds nd not more powerful items.
But they CAn choose right now.
with items such as
getting huge amounts of AP is far from impossible.
It is just that people wanna build
every game.
You can either get huge numbers or huge CDR. You can't have both.
Zhonya is a garbage-tier situational item, Protobelt is situational and nobody buys Abyssal for CDR.
Not to mention that Rod of Ages gives as much AP as Morellonomicon.
Zhonya is garbage-tier situational item,
A literal invincibility button will never be garbage, im sorry.
Protobelt is situational and nobody buys Abyssal for CDR.
This is a joke right?
the only APs not getting it are the ones getting Zhonyas instead.
Not to mention that Rod of Ages gives as much AP as Morellonomicon.
I fail to see the point you are making here.
If anything, getting both would be even better since the mana on them would boost Seraphs Mana -> AP conversion bonus.
A literal invincibility button will never be garbage, im sorry.
It's garbage, because:
This is a joke right?
the only APs not getting it are the ones getting Zhonyas instead.
Ironically most champions getting Protobelt also buy Zhonya's.
I fail to see the point you are making here.
The point is that you put RoA in the "get this for high AP" category and Morellonomicon in the "scrubs get this and complain about the lack of AP" category, despite the fact they both give as much AP.
It's garbage, because:
- The item stats aren't worth the slot.
Thats because it has the strongest active in the freaking game attached to it. the item is very slot efficient with the active in mind.
- In 95% of cases that "literal invincibility button" only delays your death by 2.5 seconds.
if it is doing so in 95% of cases, that only speaks of your terrible usage of the active as opposed to the active being weak. Here is a tip:
Stop using it to delay your inevitable death.
Literally no one is making you do it but you. ._. And whats worse is that since the CD was increased, doing so means you will likely not have the active next time when you actually could have used it for something.
DFG was actually not worth the slot without the active. That doesn't mean the item in UP, it just means that people that don't know wtf they are doing screw up (no shit).
- The other 5% are Morgana and Kennen.
There is at the bare minimum a 1% that are LeeSin and Malphite so your calcs are wrong :P
Ironically most champions getting Protobelt also buy Zhonya's.
For the CDR and survivability. If they aren't getting Zhonyas they are gettign abyssal. They usually get a combination of the 3.
Which proves my original point. You pick one or the other. you can't have your cake and eat it too.
The point is that you put RoA in the "get this for high AP" category and Morellonomicon in the "scrubs get this and complain about the lack of AP" category, despite the fact they both give as much AP.
I wasn't saying that morello is a "scrubs get this" item. i was more trying to make the point that these (all the items in that group) are the ones that people are getting as a "rough build" as apposed to the ones I listed prior that would help them get more AP.
it isn't about what morrelo does, nor was i tryign to say getting it was bad and resulted in less AP. It's just about what people are actually building and want, and what they want is CDR. That CDR comes at the cost of raw AP however.
Thats because it has the strongest active in the freaking game attached to it. the item is very slot efficient with the active in mind.
Situationally strongest. That's a difference.
if it is doing so in 95% of cases, that only speaks of your terrible usage of the active as opposed to the active being weak. Here is a tip:
Stop using it to delay your inevitable death.
That's a great tip. I will use the active like this instead. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H96IUlB-QKQ/maxresdefault.jpg
The whole point of this active is to delay your death, so maybe an opportunity to escape arises.
Or if you are Morgana or Kennen.
There is at the bare minimum a 1% that are LeeSin and Malphite so your calcs are wrong :P
Um... can anybody translate this to English?
I wasn't saying that morello is a "scrubs get this" item. i was more trying to make the point that these (all the items in that group) are the ones that people are getting as a "rough build" as apposed to the ones I listed prior that would help them get more AP.
You basically made an essay version of what I just said. Buying the second highest AP item in the game isn't the best way to get the most AP - that's what you are denying then agreeing with... in the same sentence.
Situationally strongest. That's a difference.
That's a great tip. I will use the active like this instead. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H96IUlB-QKQ/maxresdefault.jpg
The whole point of this active is to delay your death, so maybe an opportunity to escape arises.
No, the point of the active is to avoid huge amounts of damage and CC in a window of time. using it to delay your death is utterly retarded. Ideally, what you wanna do with it is to outright prevent your death. All delaying your death does is waste everyone time and waste your active.
You basically made an essay version of what I just said.
I guess your reading comprehension needs work because I far from did anything of the sort.
Buying the second highest AP item in the game isn't the best way to get the most AP - that's what you are denying then agreeing with... in the same sentence.
????
The whole point f my argument was that people aren't buying the most AP and then subsequently complain that they don't have enough AP. Because these people expect to have all the survivability and utility and CDR while still having all the raw numbers a strong AP build would have, and that this mentality is stupid.
Where have i contradicted myself?
Now kiss
DFG was actually not worth the slot without the active. That doesn't mean the item in UP, it just means that people that don't know wtf they are doing screw up (no shit).
I'd gladly take 120 AP 10% CDR over 75 AP 45 Armor 10% CDR.
Those stats are great not BC there aren't 4 items that give 120 AP.
Back then that AP value wasn't high by comparison.
I'd gladly take 120 AP 10% CDR over 75 AP 45 Armor 10% CDR.
u do realize that retroactively speaking, the AP on the item would be removed and the CDR would be changed? i mean, Luden's entire purpose was to fill the void left by DFG's removal.
Ofc it looks nice now but back then when Zhonyas gave u freaking 120 AP and 50 Armor on top of the active, most people didn't even buy it and the ones that did mostly would have been better off with another item statwise if they weren't using the active.
Zhonya's was core on virtually every Mage back when it was 120 AP/50 Armor.
Luden's was supposed to replace DFG, but got nerfed down to being a niche item at best. It might come back some more due to the nerfing of Rylai's but Luden's is definitely not a strong item.
Zhonya's was core on virtually every Mage back when it was 120 AP/50 Armor.
Luden's was supposed to replace DFG, but got nerfed down to being a niche item at best. It might come back some more due to the nerfing of Rylai's but Luden's is definitely not a strong item.
I was referring to DFG, not Zhonya's. I was just mentioning that Zhonya's gave that much stats before as a frame of referemce of which time in the game i was speaking of.
Also, DFG was also niche, as only a few champs actually got it regularly and the ones that did got it for the active.
the ones that got it but never used the active would have been better off with another item entirely.
DFG was either a Core or not bought at all item. There was no niche buys for it. Ahri rushed the item over a Mana item. Pretty sure Veigar did the same. Meanwhile someone like Lux would never buy it due to it being to short ranged for the active compared to her kit.
Nah, veigar got a tear. the ones that didnt got chalice like everyone else because laning against aps lol.
Lets use Xerath as an example.
A competent Xerath will never build
because he should never be the one taking hits and having more mana doesn't accomplish much since his passive is a fixed value. Tear into
seems good (I was building it) but then every1 and their mothers got self sustain which meant you either build Morello or you wait your ADC to build the last item to counter them.
Different mages have different builds, Swain or Aurelion Sol without
or
respectively have no reason to exist and the only freedom you have is to chose which item to build before the others.
Xerath also has little use for the hextech items because he shouldn't be that close. Same with Abyssal and Zhonya's (unless you need protection from assassins).
Wow there are soooo many choices! /s
Claiming that a competent person playing a champion will never take damage is stupid since the people they will face on the enemy team is supposed to be matched made with similar skill to that person. you can try to avoid damage but people who perfectly avoid getting damaged all the time are usually the ones running when their front like is fighting putting out no use in their kit and useing 2/0/0 (thats right i actually give assists some weight) score to justify how good they are.
I'm not saying that he is never taking damage but he shouldn't build expecting to tank much of it and instead he should focus to delete ppl off map which isn't achieved by building a high number (aka 2+) of hp/mr/armor items.
I didnt put any mr or armor items even though zhyonas is a staple on mages and hp gives you just as ap as non hp builds so why go for less surviability for the same damage not to mention if you want more damage seraphs embrace cant be beat as a single ap item on any champion with mana only rabadons beats it when you have more ap to stack with it which when you have seraphs embrace and other top ap items cant be beat again.
High Ap
high cdr
both
And which Mages can actually choose between all of the listed items?
all of them. but they dont because some items are just so effective that they crowd out the items that arent the legit best. which is why the top items need to be nerfed.
"i only need 200 AP to 100-0 the champs i'm supposed to for most of the game"
"but as an AoE utility burst mage I need 800 AP so I can kill the enemy tanks in the same rotation"
[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kqhFAcgJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-01T20:04:53.652+0000)
"i only need 200 AP to 100-0 the champs i'm supposed to for most of the game"
"but as an AoE utility burst mage I need 800 AP so I can kill the enemy tanks in the same rotation"
This. So fucking much.
You aren't supposed to be able to kill tanks in a rotation. That's the purpose of tanks.
That's the damn point.
But....
!
Don't get me started on true damage. Most toxic game element there is.
Yeah
it
has
no
counter.
Not when the same champions have %health in their kit or build
.
Toxic.
No
counter
at
all 
Let me know when you 100-0 the other mid laner at 200 AP most of the game
Ok sure but we will need to take away your cdr then :^)
Do it.

Fine, then give
back its original MR and give
back its 500 health.
If you recall, the same patch that changed the AP on those items also changed the defense stats on spirit visage and banshee's veil. They decreased AP stats and MR stats at the same time BUT they gave you CDR, so you technically came out ahead.
Practically I stopped buying Zhonya's altogether, because it's a garbage item not worth a slot and I rarely buy A.Scepter, because most of its stats are wasted on my main.
No, mages didn't really come out ahead.
AP assassins? Yeah maybe. But that's whole like 3 champions and ironically they aren't actually doing that well either.
You must be kidding me. Zhonyas is an invincibility button you can BUY with more armor than a chain vest that also gives you 70 AP and 10% CDR. If you think its not worth buying against heavy AD threats, you, my friend, are retarded.
Mages certainly did. The lower defensive stats on the two main MR items offsets the lower AP on the couple items you situationally build at best. At the same time they gave you CDR so you can spam your abilities more. So at the end of the day you have the ability to do more damage than you used to.
Your problem is that you liked it better when you could cast two spells and kill a bruiser or half health a tank. Not how its supposed to work.
what about
mains. Shes a freaking mess. An AP bruiser with no armor options. Hourglass is forced onto her and its useless for her. Hourglass is usless in general, the only thing its good for is zeds ult anyone else will be able to walk right up to you and kill you.
remember when everyone complained there wasn't enough CDR lol
Everybody was complaining that at any given time there is only one viable AP/CDR item.
Which is still the case, since every single item except Morello is so situational and champion specific, they may as well not be there.
PLEASE DO. Take away that fucking CDR on Zhonya and make it a viable buy again.
[{quoted}](name=L0ve Is Blue,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kqhFAcgJ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-12-01T20:30:39.152+0000)
and make it a **viable buy again. **
"i can't buy zhonya in every game, therefore it's bad"
for adcs

Better comparison would be
, not zhonyas lol
Yeah,
is bought every game [slayer-jinx-wink]
We mages have lost about 30% of our damage since season 5. It's pretty lame and not very fun to be blanket nerfed so hard. Our AA on minions suck so our cs'ing is harder than the ADC who does way more AA damage.
Our damage is down all around so in teamfights we can't do anything to tanks anymore. Our only targets are squishies. BUt the ADC on the other side can kill anything that comes near it much faster than us and with sustain of nearly no mana cost.
Also our mana regen was nerfed in season 5 and all our mana costs went up blanket wise. We all have to build morello's for mana regen first item now.
We have very little buy paths. Almost every game we have to build the same shit and that's boring as fuck.
LUL MANA REGEN PROBLEM if you still whine about mana you should git gud
dont even talk about mages damage being trash because you know thats bullshit and recently you guys succeeded in getting locket gutted LUL
Oh yeah and its not like mages have the best waveclear in the game but lets compare that with aa LUL
That actually would be perfect
Too many useful items are worthless since they don't have enough AP and all the damn CDR Riot forced onto every purchase makes it inefficient to build together.
Take it. I don't care. I want to be able to choose what items I take, instead of using the same shitty build over and over and over again.