Smite Range reduced to 500 from 760 (maybe be more to this)
I guess Riot wants to make sure ADCs are literally unkillable and cater to their every whim and desire. Once again instead of nerfing the problem children 
riot just decides to screw every other viable jungle in the process of "blanket nerfing" them. I guess they can't nerf muh LC$BIGPLAYZ though since Reddit will cry beyond belief if Lee gets nerfed in the slightest and Riot will cater to Reddit again.
RiotMeddler40 votesWe're testing changing Smite to measure from edge to edge, rather than from center to center, and then reducing its range. That means that against big targets (like Baron or Dragon) it will have the same effective range it currently does (they've got enormous models, other monsters like Blue/Red it's very slightly shorter against, think half a step's worth). Against champions by contrast it will have a noticeably lower range. One of the reasons behind that change is the belief that Chilling Smite is making skillshot/free targeted offensive dash junglers (such as Lee Sin, Jarvan, Amumu etc), more reliable in early ganks than they should be.
Retillin100 votesSo, junglers with great mobility to get into range (ward hop, EQ J4, Vi Q, ect...) don't see a difference. You understand this right? But Amumu, Naut, even Sej have a harder time getting into range to drop this smite. Remember when some Rioters said the 100g add to the jungle items might have hit the not top junglers more than the stronger junglers? This is the SAME. DAMN. THING.
You talk about it being a nerf to Amumu, and it is. A lot. But do you REALLY think Lee Sin isn't going to either Q a minion or just safe guard to something to do the same chilling smite as before?
Meddler man, this shows a massive lack of understanding of mobility junglers vs everyone else...
qetzel7 votesOr perhaps Naut and Sejuani have other options for the jungle upgrade and don't need to smite champions? I don't know, I don't play either, but you do need to consider this.
EDIT: Also, tank junglers tend to have bigger hitboxes, so edge to edge is better for them than for Lee, for example.
zock3y5 votesLow mobility junglers need the upgrade for their ganks to be good. Junglers like Lee Sin or Jarvan IV can get this upgrade so their ganks get bonkers. Low mobility junglers are going to have a worse time after this update. Lee Sin and Jarvan IV are not going to care since they can get in melee range almost always.
About tank junglers having bigger hitboxes, well, aside from perhaps a lvl 16, 6 feasts stacks Cho'Gath with a size elixir, I think it's almost always a sizeable nerf to smiting champions range, and being a third of a Teemo larger than a Lee doesn't improve your smite range by a lot, really.
Narasimha5 votesJust to jump in, this does actually hurt Lee a bit more than others. Most Lees will use the smite to set up for landing the easy Q. Now thats not really an option.
Retillin5 votesOr they can ward hop (or safe guard to some sort of ally) and use his aoe slow to land the Q. Or Q a minion. Ect... It's not that it doesn't hurt Lee, but it hurts the likes of Shy, Voli, Udyr so much more. Lee still has ways to pull a gank off in the Game of Mobility.
Narasimha4 votesOh don't get me wrong, this is definitely a harsh blow to all junglers. I was just simply saying that as far as Lee goes, its a good hit to him. I mean, even in Gold, I have yet to see many Lees with the mechanics of pulling off anything that special. Maybe its a higher elo issue.
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesIt does hurt J4 and Vi because they want to slow before they use their Qs.
Cosmic Warper5 votesIt does hurt J4 and Vi because they want to slow before they use their Qs.
It hurts other junglers even more though because those two still have mobility for ganks. Now junglers who don't have that much mobility for ganks and need stalker's will be completely boned.
Kuroi863 votesFor starters, he said they are testing it, we'll see if it goes through or not.
I can only speak for 
now, but typically Naut isn't an early ganker unless you've got a sure fire kill on your hands. An opponent who's gotten cocky and pushing lane and underestimating your ability to lock them down.
Usually, Nautilus won't bother with Chilling smite as he's going to be getting Blasting smite to clear camps faster and hit level six as quickly as possible, at this point his ganks become deadly thanks to his ult.
The only junglers I typically take Chilling smite on would be 
And that is simply for the added burst and sticking power, typically I have very little problem getting to the opponent with these junglers.
As for other junglers, I cannot speak for them.
Rinky Dinky4 votesNaut is all about ganks tho
Jesus is Savior8 votesFor starters, he said they are testing it, we'll see if it goes through or not.
PBE changes almost ALWAYS get pushed through.
They say they're "testing" it, but that's a joke. It will go through.
Robert Smith2 votesChilling Smite works great for Champs with no CC such as 
but mostly for early and mid game when his Ult isn't too strong. I liked the original Red smite cause it was a Bonus E on him. NO it is just a weaker ignite.
Provengreil1 votesdon't underestimate that thing. It also reduces that champ's damage to you by 20%. If you're a common focus, then it ends up being a combination of ignite and exhaust.
Jungle Lux God3 votesWhy are you taking Chilling Smite on Nautilus?
Nautilus needs Ranger's Trailblazer in the early game for sustain, and he has so much CC in his kit that the slow from Chilling Smite is completely overkill.
Skirmisher's Sabre is so much better if you want what Stalker's Blade provides.
RiotMeddler32 votesThis might well end up increasing the difference between mobile and immobile junglers. If so that's all the more reason to look at whether certain junglers are too strong (not sure about the Balance team's current thoughts there).
The point I was looking to convey was that we don't feel 760 range is appropriate for a click to hit CC from an item that can be accessed really early in the game by any jungler. Regardless of who's too strong or too weak, what other changes should be made etc that's too high a range for that sort of effect. Balance changes to junglers, whether buffing the weak or nerfing the strong, should be made with that item in a better spot.
Retillin6 votesThank you for the reply. But again, I think you might be missing something.
The last 3 or 4 jungle changes were aimed at "problem" junglers. That's great, I understand that there is no simple answer. However, each change was a slap on the wrist to these "problem" junglers while hurting the weaker junglers much more. Riot has shown (over the years) that is has no problem playing "wack a mole" when some champs are strong at times. Yet it seems the jungle is immune from this thought. If we have the same strong champions for such a long time, when does the thinking change from "let's look at it all" and start becoming "well these champs seem to be the problem". I really think individual champion buff/nerfs are the only way to do what the last two years of jungle work has TRIED to do.
Chromatic Eagle11 votesThere is no might, it will. This is League of Mobility. Lee Sin is the poster child of this problem. Lee has barely been affected by any jungle change. He may not be "too strong", but he's far too flexible for this jungle.
5G8Nri0B5429 votes(not sure about the Balance team's current thoughts there)
Let's start way back with mana champions getting screwed over. You have a situation where** Energy/Resourceless champions went toe-to-toe with mana-using champion**. Then you proceed to screw mana champions over by nerfing their items while the likes of Zed/Yasuo/Akali/etc. remains completely untouched. You go overboard on nerfing Chalice, but champions who relied on it like 
get nothing.
Now we get to the jungle changes. 
was ludicrously OP with the new jungle items, so something has to be done. Rather than nerfing the item, or nerfing Warwick, your balance team nerfs BOTH without considering the consequence of such heavy-handed changes.
needed nerfs, and the analysis was logical, he was powerful late game, yet he also bullies early game in lane. You guys stated you wanted to give him some early game weaknesses...so you proceed to nerf both his early AND late game by hitting his range.And that's not including the massive to-do list that's accumulated all throughout the years. 
is still a joke champion, 
was nerfed repeatedly and then left to rot, not even being able to top lane, tank junglers...
edit: Whoa that was more negative than was intended! I'll end it on something more positive I guess. I like your decision to remove DFG because I 100% agree with the assessment that it pigeonholes a number of champion builds, with 
being the exemplar champion who was ruined by it. I'm also happy that Ahri was REVERTED back to what she originally was. It gives 
players hope that maybe someday, she can be FIXED again.
Of course, with the removal of DFG, the number of Garen players just went down from 4 to 1.
Jeddy0171 votesIs it alright if I may ask you why Garen is a joke champion?I'm just curious.
Castanean1 votesI think it's because Garen is sort of a One-Trick-Pony to a criplling degree. And he doesn't even do that particularly well, compared to what other champions can do. It may also of course be because, as a tank, you have no real reason to want to hit him first. He can't draw attention at all, unlike every other tank in the game.
... Of course, I may be wrong, so please CORRECT THE SHIT OUT OF ME if I am.
Jeddy0171 votesI see,I still like playing as him though.I already figured he wasn't the best or most viable champ in the game (when was the last time Garen was played on the E-sports stage?).
Provengreil1 votesyeah that's actually the one thing garen is good at. He's almost inexplicably fun to play at times.
5G8Nri0B544 votesHe's a terrible tank because he doesn't have any CC or anything that would make people want to give Garen any attention in a teamfight, nor can he initiate or do anything at all.
If he's a bruiser, he can't do jack against any ranged champion due to how straightforward and predictable his single pattern is.
If he's supposed to be a lane-bully that denies enemy top laner CS, he fails at that because no matter how underfarmed the enemy top-laner might be, he'll never be as pathetic as a post-lane Garen.
And as mentioned before, he's a one trick pony that isn't particularly good at that one trick anyways.
What purpose is Garen supposed to serve? Fails as a lane bully, fails as a tank, can not even reach any ADC let alone kill him/her, not without a Flash atleast.
Jeddy0171 votesDamn,that's something that should be looked at.He & Ashe could use some updated kits.
PatMcGroyn1 votesI actually like Ashe's kit, the only thing that needs work is her passive, which is completely uninteresting.
Jeddy0171 votesI like Ashe kit as well (both as ADC & Support),but that doesn't change the fact that she's considered nonviable. Yeah,the passive could use some love.
Phrite1 votesI love how people take personal opinion as fact when ashe has the second highest win rate of all adcs right now
Jeddy0171 votesWait,me? I didn't say anything about Ashe having a low win rate or anything.I just said what I see mentioned on the boards & what I see from the E-sports matches.When was the last time Ashe was played by a pro?
Also,I said "considered".I didn't say she is.
So,I'm not sure if you were responding to me or not.
PatMcGroyn1 votesI think Ashe is viable and downright strong in solo Q. People don't buy QSS/ Veil as early as they should against Ashe (if they buy it at all), and her permaslow is amazing at punishing bad positioning (which is quite common in Solo Q). You need to be careful of heavy dive, and position well, but Ashe is a pretty effective pubstomper.
Muted Summoner1 votesDamn,that's something that should be looked at.He & Ashe could use some updated kits.
Ashe won't never see a change due to a number of reasons. She is my favorite adc, she is solid but very old and stale and doesn't hold up to the meta. Ashes ultimate is way too good. Because of that her kit will suffer. Like her passive and among other things. She relies more on her team than most adcs do. Any adc with a full build does good consistent damage. So Late game Ashe is a mute point. Unless her ultimate hits, she's just a 1 trick pony. Not to mention she is for beginners. She will always be hey noobs check adc out, learn the basics then pick the more reliable adcs like kallista, lucian, Vayne and so on. Same as garen and mordekaiser. League has basic noob champions then they have skill shot lcs play champions like ahri and lee.
PatMcGroyn1 votesHonestly, as a guy who use to main Garen, I think he could be fixed if they turned his Q into a jump, and reworked his passive to reward more aggressive play. For example, instead of gaining extra health regen when OUT of combat, he should be granted extra health regen the longer he's IN combat.
The icing on the cake would be if they made his E apply a slow.
Hyrum Graff1 votesHe's supposed to be a mechanically simple champ for new players to learn on. This makes it hard to make him interesting. I believe it's possible -- but it's a lot of work for not much reward, at least compared to some of the other, more glaring, problems.
19 19 192 votesThis might well end up increasing the difference between mobile and immobile junglers. If so that's all the more reason to look at whether certain junglers are too strong (not sure about the Balance team's current thoughts there).
The point I was looking to convey was that we don't feel 760 range is appropriate for a click to hit CC from an item that can be accessed really early in the game by any jungler. Regardless of who's too strong or too weak, what other changes should be made etc that's too high a range for that sort of effect. Balance changes to junglers, whether buffing the weak or nerfing the strong, should be made with that item in a better spot.
Then explain how Shyvana will be able to successfully gank any lanes now since you're nerfing the range of smite?
Krosan4 votesMeddler, I love ya, but I'll try to put this in a less salty way than some of the other posters who have responded to you.
I think the guys on the balance team are doing a good job in general, but a lot of people do not have much faith in jungle changes right now because a few outlier picks are consistently going relatively untouched by systemic changes, the biggest being Lee Sin and Jarvan IV. (If nothing is done to her, I wouldn't be surprised if Rek'sai joins that class as well.)
They've been more or less top-tier for entire years now, and systemic changes aren't working because they're consistently able to abuse any new tool or change better than the class at which it's targeted.
Some attribute financial motivations to it ("Lee goes untouched because he draws viewers with flashy LCS plays"). I doubt that heavily. I think Balance is trying their best. But hypermobile, walldash/ward-jump champions are out of control.
ProfDrDeath1 votesConcerning jungler strength/jungler variety, is there a discussion about the strength of the Warrior enchantment?
It is currently the second most valuable in the gold-per-slot ratio (Magus is better), but the most useful for jungling overall, as AP champions seldomly have the tools to translate increased AP into massively increase clear speeds (Only ones I can think of right now are Nidalee, Karthus, Fiddlesticks and possibly Gragas). AD champions, on the other hand, get a massive increase in clearing tempo out of Warrior, due to the high AD and the ArPen negating the little amounts of Armor the monsters have.
Doesn't this strength of Warrior restrict the jungle champion pool, too?
SanKakU1 votesConcerning jungler strength/jungler variety, is there a discussion about the strength of the Warrior enchantment?
It is currently the second most valuable in the gold-per-slot ratio (Magus is better), but the most useful for jungling overall, as AP champions seldomly have the tools to translate increased AP into massively increase clear speeds (Only ones I can think of right now are Nidalee, Karthus, Fiddlesticks and possibly Gragas). AD champions, on the other hand, get a massive increase in clearing tempo out of Warrior, due to the high AD and the ArPen negating the little amounts of Armor the monsters have.
Doesn't this strength of Warrior restrict the jungle champion pool, too?
personally, i despise the green and blue enchantments. the bluie one should probably give some magic penetration, and the cdr 20 seems silly. but whatever. the green one just doesn't seem like it offers much of anything you want. you want items that increase your income, you want damage, the green enchantment does not offer that.
Keevalroy1 votes(not sure about the Balance team's current thoughts there).
Yeah? Well we're not sure either. In fact, every recent patch has been raising more concerns and confusion and the balance team remains silent on every decision they make. The ONLY and I mean ONLY time they talk is to dismiss any kind of criticism against them and their horrid decisions.
To provide context without meaningful discussion, they would rather go to Leddit and hide in an environment of false positives surrounded by people that can't prove they play League at all. Bring them to the actual League site for balance discussion, not a third party platform. If Leddit wants to cry about it they can log into the forums (that is of course if they have an account in the first place) to talk to you guys about balance.
Let them keep their precious esports spam, let them keep their "le dank memes" and "punny jokez" that drown out real discussions and concerns, and make them come to the forums to talk about the health of the game on the real site.
Chromatic Eagle14 votesWhy not just reduce the range of their skillshots, or increase the cooldowns? You said before that you want to adjust the jungle but not the champions, but virtually every change to the jungle has had more of an impact on the weaker ones instead of the top ones. Honestly, what is Riot's hesitation in nerfing Lee and J4? I am legit confused. Do you believe that they are balanced? Why not buff the rest of the junglers instead of nerfing their items?
DarkenedSoul4203 votesMy prediction for next patch:
"Well it looks like junglers are still too strong in the earlygame so all basic jungle camps now take two minutes to respawn...yeah..that should fix it."
MajorPain947 votesYou guys need to do an ama on the jungle. We have no clue what you want from it or us at this point.
Chessburger3 votesThat is a very good idea. Preferably on boards I don't know why I'd have to get reddit for talking to riot.
Yormaughm6 votesYou guys need to do an ama on the jungle. We have no clue what you want from it or us at this point.
It's obvious actually.
They want junglers to have less of an impact on the early game, for ganks to not happen until later (if at all,) and for junglers to not be able to snowball and carry.
Mostly these changes have accomplished this. But the few problem junglers like Lee, Vi and Jarvan can still do these things effectively, and since players don't like playing a 2nd support role, they're now the only 3 junglers, and will remain so despite every single jungle nerf Riot puts out until Riot nerfs the champions who are the problem directly.
Learnding7 votesWe're testing changing Smite to measure from edge to edge, rather than from center to center, and then reducing its range. That means that against big targets (like Baron or Dragon) it will have the same effective range it currently does (they've got enormous models, other monsters like Blue/Red it's very slightly shorter against, think half a step's worth). Against champions by contrast it will have a noticeably lower range. One of the reasons behind that change is the belief that Chilling Smite is making skillshot/free targeted offensive dash junglers (such as Lee Sin, Jarvan, Amumu etc), more reliable in early ganks than they should be.
Do you guys not understand or even see; your design philosophies are literally backfiring left and right. You're nerfing smite because of your ingenious idea to be able to smite champions, which then led to a few nerfs to a few champions, now inevitably you're nerfing smite itself. I can't tell if your balance team is either, retarded or just flat out never played League before. Everything you've done since 2013 has either completely failed, backfired, or has been reverted because you have no idea what you're doing.
SecretAgentHulk3 votesYou have great points, and then couch it in hostile language. If more people could make the good points without being offensive, we might see more Red engagement on the Boards.
Paradise Proxy2 votesWe're testing changing Smite to measure from edge to edge, rather than from center to center, and then reducing its range. That means that against big targets (like Baron or Dragon) it will have the same effective range it currently does (they've got enormous models, other monsters like Blue/Red it's very slightly shorter against, think half a step's worth). Against champions by contrast it will have a noticeably lower range. One of the reasons behind that change is the belief that Chilling Smite is making skillshot/free targeted offensive dash junglers (such as Lee Sin, Jarvan, Amumu etc), more reliable in early ganks than they should be.
Please stop talking about this "edge to edge" bullshit. It only means something in the context of actually coding the game. Just say it was a nerf, ok?
SecretAgentHulk2 votesSeems to me it's vital to understanding how Smite will work. Seems like every week there's a WTF Thresh post where somebody doesn't understand hitboxes, and this is the same thing.
Ulquiorra99516 votesDo you know who is not affected with these changes?
- instant mobility spells to get in range
Do you know who is affected?
- kiteable jungles with non-reliable gap closers.
Every day you are making me even more convinced that your balance team not only does not play its own game, but lacks basic general game knowledge.
