Lifesteal is honestly overpowered, and it has been for a long time.

WoonStruck·Dec 8, 2016·106 votes·7,000 views

At the very least it should not stack at all (Warlord's+LS item being the main culprit) and it should be reduced vs minions. The highest value should take priority in all cases and that's it.

If Mages burst healing (and its variability between champions) was an issue, ADs healing is a huge issue as well, due to any physical on-hit being included in lifesteal values.

Some games are won solely by someone stacking lifesteal on Yas (whether its item+warlord's or whatever else), Riven, or whatever ADC. They can make the worst plays and come out of it solely due to healing over 1/4 of their HP any time they touch something. That is the opposite of interactive.

149 Comments

DarkfireAMDec 8, 201638 votes

BUY. MORTALS. REMINDER!!

EDIT: I meant to type "Buy", instead it was autocorrected to "bye". Isn't it funny how a simple grammatical mistake can change your meaning entirely?!

WoonStruckDec 8, 20167 votes

Implying it isn't bought pretty much every game already lol. Its considered almost universally the better choice unless you're getting dove by Vi, Olaf, etc.

Sightless66Dec 8, 201630 votes

It's pretty rarely bought. Lord Dominick's is by far the more common purchase. Usually the smarter buy too.

SpoofghoulDec 8, 20166 votes

well yes since doms makes your crits 15% stronger as well as your spells

this 15% increase isn't limited to just the bonus damage part and the item makes the enemies armor near usless

so it's the highest damage item you can get, stronger then infinity edge except when your enemy does not have much hp

but almost every class ends up with 500 more hp then the ad carry . . .

WoonStruckDec 9, 20164 votes

At higher MMRs I see Mortal Reminder being bought all the time because it shuts down Juggernauts, many divers, a few mages, adc lifesteal, etc...

FantasySniperDec 9, 20163 votes

Which in itself is a problem since the power of sustain in general is warped by the presence of two catch-all hard-counter items.

It would be much simpler for "Grievous Wounds" to become an actual stat instead of a passive and thin out its availability across multiple niche items.

GrReaper96Dec 9, 20162 votes

Sure, unless your an ap champion in which case you need item 3165 which is 2100g more expensive (yes better stats but takes ages to build) AND you need to get the enemy below 40% health for GW to actually work.

ChaoticPineconeDec 9, 20167 votes

Morello gives you 400 mana, some mana regen, 100 AP, and 20% CDR. Even without Grievous Wounds its a top tier item.

And "ages to build" isnt exactly correct. Lifesteal is only a problem mid/late game, and often itemized for as a 3rd or 4th item. Morello is a first-purchase item most of the time.

SasogwaDec 8, 201625 votes

Meh. I don't agree at all. Lifesteal is extremely good when

snowballing
laning while not being behind enough to get zoned from minions

If you're not horrendously fed, lifesteal doesn't do sh*t in teamfights. Having resistances and health will be more valuable than pure lifesteal in a situation when you're likely to get focused down.

Lifesteal also has counterbuild options. Reduced healing ofc, but simply armor works. You don't lifesteal sh*t on someone that has a lot of armor. And you're not gonna focus minions in a teamfight solely to heal back up.

RainbowIceeDec 9, 20167 votes

Except for graves though, his life steal is a bit much even when he's not fed or ahead. Even though that's thanks to the mastery rather than the champion.

ZephyrDrakeDec 8, 201614 votes

i heard that armor and healing reducing effects works wonder on lifesteal, also Thornmail also helps against it a bit

OglafDec 8, 20167 votes

{quoted}

i heard that armor and healing reducing effects works wonder on lifesteal, also Thornmail also helps against it a bit

Quite the opposite: Thornmail is nigh-useless because of Lifesteal.

Better off getting Frozen Heart or Randuin's instead.

SckullzzDec 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Quite the opposite: Thornmail is nigh-useless because of Lifesteal.

Better off getting Frozen Heart or Randuin's instead.

Umm... no? Thornmail counters lifesteal. They can't heal if they keep damaging themselves from it. Also with Morel item 3165 or Mortal item 3033 , healing is almost nullified once they drop below the threshold.

ProfDrDeathDec 8, 20164 votes

You cannot argue with the guys that think that buying Thornmail should make it so attacking a tank kills an ADC without the tank having to do anything more.

Nevermind that that would actually be broken, as ADCs are designed to counter tanks, not the other way around.

SckullzzDec 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You cannot argue with the guys that think that buying Thornmail should make it so attacking a tank kills an ADC without the tank having to do anything more.

Nevermind that that would actually be broken, as ADCs are designed to counter tanks, not the other way around.

It's not a cure-all, but it significantly reduces damage to the tank and healing to the ADC. Now a tank can't necessarily take the adc full on (except maybe Rammus) but it reduces their healing enough that your other damage dealers can take them out easier. It even works ok against a Nasus with fed q stacks. Yeah he'll still hit like a truck, but he won't heal for nearly as much without it.

deadlychuckDec 9, 20162 votes

ADCs weren't designed to counter tanks. It was the other way around, then over the past few years riot has forcibly tried to shift who naturally counters who.

Mages use to be the counter to tanks, due to them being granted most of the % max HP in the game. Really if you look at this game like how most RPGs are balanced then consistent DPS isn't how you counter tanks, it's burst damage around their defensive abilities.

You might disagree with the comparison to an RPG, but that's what MOBAs are best described as, one of the game devs of paragon described a moba as a compressed RPG experiece in a zero sum economy where players control heroes to fulfill roles.

GrReaper96Dec 9, 20164 votes

FYI item 3033 does not have a Thresh old (sry couldnt resist the pun)

CatastropDec 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Umm... no? Thornmail counters lifesteal. They can't heal if they keep damaging themselves from it.

In most cases, the person is going to outheal Thornmail.

AhristocatsDec 8, 20167 votes

thornmail is negated by MR no one will buy healing effect against lifesteal, except morello who's the best ap item atm

ZephyrDrakeDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w73vtNsr,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-12-08T17:25:23.196+0000)

thornmail is negated by MR no one will buy healing effect against lifesteal, except morello who's the best ap item atm

i didn't know that ADCs actually built MR outside of QSS and if healing is actually an issue and you do not buy item 3123 then that's your team's fault

doublelift fgDec 8, 20162 votes

item 3026 45 mr

if you don't buy it you're trash as adc

ZephyrDrakeDec 9, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w73vtNsr,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T23:11:16.051+0000)

45 mr

if you don't buy it you're trash as adc

so... pretty much every challenger player is trash... every pro ADC is trash... that is what you are telling me right?

doublelift fgDec 9, 20162 votes

what the fuck are you talking about?

never did i see a challenger not going on GA when the enemy team has thornmail or Rammus since 3 years

It Hertz When IPDec 8, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w73vtNsr,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-12-08T17:25:23.196+0000)

no one will buy healing effect against lifesteal

So you're telling me that lifesteal COULD be countered if ADCs tried to counter it, but they don't?

Sounds like there isn't a real problem here.

RyuyahDec 9, 20162 votes

The ultimate thornmail counter: item 3139

ZephyrDrakeDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The ultimate thornmail counter:

not really, unless thornmail is your only armor item then yes it is. Thornmail is not there to completely negate lifesteal. It's to reduce the amount of HP they regain with it. They are still taking damage from thornmail which is offsetting the lifesteal they are getting and if the only lifesteal item they have is that? then what are you even complaining about? if they are stacking lifesteal items? once again! Executioners, Thornmail, Morellos and general armor is going to help tremendously and everyone has access to at least one of those type of items so there is no excuse!

RyuyahDec 9, 20162 votes

AD to hit harder Lifesteal to counter Thornmail damage MR to reduce Thornmail damage With an active that removes all cc

SerberDec 8, 20168 votes

Mains Vladimir Is mad at other people for lifestealing k

LeeerzeichenDec 8, 20166 votes

I think lifesteal has a major problem: it's calculated after resistances. This makes lifesteal pretty weak from behind or against tank where it should be strong and too strong against squishies and if you're ahead. I would change lifesteal to heal of the amount of your damage that got migrated to make it less snowbally and stronger against stronger enemies.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 8, 20166 votes

I echo DarkfireAm: mortal reminder is actually rarely bought, and it would counter the edge cases EXTREMELY well (like the one in your example).

That being said, I will expound by saying that it's likely that Riot will update that system. As they did with stealth and armor pen, Riot is constantly looking at ways to improve the game. This isn't in my top three issues to resolve, but I DO think there are problems with lifesteal that could be ironed out a little better. They'll probably get around to it after some more glaring issues.

Tristanl0lDec 9, 20166 votes

im dying at the irony

nice match history bro

http://i.imgur.com/Jdi2OaZ.png

Supreme Senpai69Dec 9, 20162 votes

Wow those are a lot of deaths considering the epitome of a lifesteal champion is su8pposedly OP

5050BSDec 8, 20164 votes

They nerfed the hell out of ap spellvamp because.... well Riot hates Mages.

To allow AD auto attack champs to heal for 100-400 per auto attack is just stupid.

Mages heals are soo weak compared to AD. Mages HAVE to have burst damage in the 2500-3500k because if they dont kill their target in <1.5s they have nothing left to deal with a auto attacker.

SerberDec 8, 20169 votes

[deleted]

RavenMagusDec 8, 201611 votes

{quoted} Is that why they're always the most overpowered pick?

I think you meant 'marksmen' there.

mages are really good but they are not mandatory on every team like marksmen are.

KazamaruDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think you meant 'marksmen' there.

mages are really good but they are not mandatory on every team like marksmen are.

There are 2 ADCs who are in the top 64 for winrate in plat+.(Obviously Twitch and Vayne)

ADC is only played every game by rote, usually in diamond(Where I am not at the moment due to placements) when a team DOESN'T play ADC, they win about 2/3s of the time. Obviously in higher elos people's understanding of the game is much higher and AD is very often a very important role, but it can be done without.

There are 19 Mages who are in the top 64 for winrate in plat+.(Using Champion.gg)

So while there are alternatives to mages, mages are traditionally the most overpowered pick in a game.

deadlychuckDec 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

There are 2 ADCs who are in the top 64 for winrate in plat+.

This shit, this shit right fucking here. STOP. Win rate is so over inflated as some kind of end all be all of this games' balance. In so many situations win rate doesn't mean shit. There are so many factors which play into this stat that people don't, and can't, account for.

[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-clap] [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ShadowParkerDec 9, 20163 votes

Let's be honest here. People have made the argument that riot hates/loves a specific class quite frequently.

zaire90Dec 9, 20165 votes

{quoted}

They nerfed the hell out of ap spellvamp because.... well Riot hates Mages.

To allow AD auto attack champs to heal for 100-400 per auto attack is just stupid.

Mages heals are soo weak compared to AD. Mages HAVE to have burst damage in the 2500-3500k because if they dont kill their target in <1.5s they have nothing left to deal with a auto attacker.

riot doesnt hate mages they love mages and adcs its the assassins that riot hates and only a few are allowed to be assassins at a time

TheHappyReaperzDec 8, 20164 votes

Or you know, you could use some CC, then burst them down as the only people who actively are a huge issue with lifesteal, as you say, are ADCs. If you're having trouble dealing with some LS in lane, try, I don't know, buying Grievous Wounds? If your AD you have item 3033 with gives you AD, armour pen, and GW. If your AP, there is item 3165 which gives AP, Mana, and CDR, along with GW.

Over InnsmouthDec 9, 20164 votes

At the very least it should not stack at all

This.

They took away spellvamp because a champions base healing + spellvamp had a similar effect as lifesteal stacking has.

ZephyrDrakeDec 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w73vtNsr,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2016-12-09T01:47:04.660+0000)

This.

They took away spellvamp because a champions base healing + spellvamp had a similar effect as lifesteal stacking has.

no, they took away spellvamp from items because the few champions that used it would be broken if the item was buffed in a way that allowed more access to the stat, also the effect on spellvamp varied greatly from champion to champion in which some it was broken as hell while in others it was just sad making it incredibly hard to balance as a whole while lifesteal pretty much behaves exactly the same no matter which champion it is using it since to activate it you have to auto attack... unless you are item 3812 since that's a specially case. Making it a lot easier to predict how strong it is while being able to balance it a lot easier. With Spellvamp it was really hard to know whether or not it was too strong or too weak more often than not

deadlychuckDec 9, 20163 votes

How in the actual fuck can you not recognize the exact same arguments can be made for lifesteal....

{quoted}

no, they took away lifesteal from items because the few champions that used it would be broken if the item was buffed in a way that allowed more access to the stat, also the effect on lifesteal varied greatly from champion to champion in which some it was broken as hell while in others it was just sad making it incredibly hard to balance as a whole while spellvamp pretty much behaves exactly the same no matter which champion it is using it since to activate it you have to use a spell (auto attack)...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

ZephyrDrakeDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How in the actual fuck can you not recognize the exact same arguments can be made for lifesteal....

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

hahahahhahaa sorry but no, nice try. Lifesteal will always be behaving the same regardless of champion. The only difference is that some are ranged and some aren't. Spellvamp was a stat that gave some champions stupid amounts of sustain while others it really didn't do anything for them. Spellvamp was never going to be balanced due to the varying amounts of base damages and ratios of spells across the board. Lifesteal on the other hand with all the differences in base AD and AS... the bulk of it comes from other items making it really easy and simple to know when it's too strong or too weak and can be adjusted accordingly. Spellvamp does not have that. 10% lifesteal and 10% spellvamp will behave so stupidly differently with one being consistent across every champion while the other being either too strong or too weak across every champion.

You cannot make the same argument i made for lifesteal no matter how hard you try

deadlychuckDec 9, 20161 votes

yes and it's quite fucking easy.

Lifesteal gives some champions a stupid amount of sustain , while others it really doesn't do anything for them

Yasuo Draven Nasus Gangplank Garen Zed

Lifesteal will never be balanced due to the varying amounts of base stats of champions and extremely varying degrees of auto attack and AD modifiers.

Urgot Varus Pantheon Nasus Caitlyn Yasuo

Really there are a couple of other arguments in there, but i can't be bothered to do the ones in the other direction (lifesteal > spellvamp) atm.

ZephyrDrakeDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yes and it's quite fucking easy.

Lifesteal gives some champions a stupid amount of sustain , while others it really doesn't do anything for them

Lifesteal will never be balanced due to the varying amounts of base stats of champions and extremely varying degrees of auto attack and AD modifiers.

Really there are a couple of other arguments in there, but i can't be bothered to do the ones in the other direction (lifesteal > spellvamp) atm.

sorry but no, champions that have built in sustain will have better sustain with lifesteal than those without built in sustain. That is obvious to anyone with half a brain and the same can be said about spellvamp. How much HP you get from lifesteal itself is really easy to figure out and see if it's worth picking up on whatever champion you are playing as since all you have to do is figure out how much AD you will be getting and how often are you able to auto something. Spellvamp you have to take into consideration everything, bases, ratios, CDs, range, whether it's single target or AoE. All those things played a part on spellvamp and how much you would heal from it. Lifesteal on the other hand, does not. It pretty much is item dependent in how much you actually get out of. Sure if you have built in sustain you will get more out of it but that goes without saying.

Spellvamp as a stat is impossible to balance around, there are way too many factors which makes it stupidly difficult to hit a proper balance on the stat. The only way you could actually keep it balanced was to make every single ability in the game have it's own spellvamp ratio which would be insane and make the stat be extremely confusing for everyone involved

deadlychuckDec 9, 20162 votes

No, you wouldn't need every single ability in the game to have it's own ratios, you'd only need to account for the few mages which actually had access to built in healing Fiddlesticks Swain Vladimir .

Where as lifesteal has the ability to be abused by a wide range of champions with tons of different multipliers and modifiers for their basic attacks Aatrox Caitlyn Darius Draven Fiora Graves Jhin Jinx Lucian MasterYi Nasus Nocturne Quinn Renekton Rengar Riven Shaco Shyvana Trundle Vayne Twitch MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo

Between armor pen, damage mods, steroids, and champion unique mechanics. Then on top of that, they're given the choice of AoE lifesteal. Yeah that's not overly complex and difficult to balance around at all. At least when it came to most champions, there was a massive limiting factor on spell vamp, ability costs. Yet lifesteal doesn't have this restriction, yet will consistently offer healing greater than most every mage was getting before the removal of spellvamp. When marksmen are healing for 400+ HP per crit, and fighers are healing for over 100 per auto, for no cost from them. People act like mages used their spell vamp for in fight suitability, but really it's the other way around, the crits and damage bonuses applied to auto attacks have always offered better in fight sustain than spell vamp did, and better lane sustain for most.