Riot stating that Flash is too integral to the game's balance is a farce.

WoonStruck··91 votes·7,793 views

A) Riot has never tested a cycle with its removal on the PBE.

B) Just as many, if not more, champions would be viable, even if the ones at the top would change completely. The ones that aren't at the top and get hit really hard by Flash's removal would stay exactly the same: unused and still needing Riot's attention.

C) Flash keeps strong champions stronger than weak ones because they make better use of Flash in most cases. **I can't stress this one enough. **

D) Flash's removal would be a smaller meta-shift than many pre-season/mid-season changes they've made.

E) Only a few champions heavily rely on Flash. Riot tries using them as examples for why they shouldn't remove it when they are an extreme minority and would likely not be any worse off than many other champions in the game currently are.


#I'm not necessarily saying that Flash should be removed.

Just that Riot has never actually tested Flash's removal and every time they say its too ingrained in LoL's balance, they don't have any evidence to back that statement up.


With how hard ADCs are getting cucked in this meta, you'd hardly notice if Flash was removed anyway. Now's the perfect time to test Flash's removal for a PBE cycle, since it would likely impact ADCs the most relative to other classes.

280 Comments

Big Lincoln20 votes

Summoner spells should all be removed and placed on items

blink dagger 2k17

WoonStruck17 votes

Finally trade-offs for ADCs damage!


Watch it have 75 AD and there be no AP equivalent.

Probably MS and armor pen on it too.

Big Lincoln4 votes

imo it shouldn't have any stats like the dota version

if you want that mobility then u gotta give up a slot for it

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

Finally trade-offs for ADCs damage!


Watch it have 75 AD and there be no AP equivalent.

Probably MS and armor pen on it too.

And lifesteal and crit.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Don't forget %HP damage of some kind.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2NIZEhw,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-27T02:43:38.410+0000)

Don't forget %HP true damage of some kind.

Fixed that for you!

Ravenous Howls6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w2NIZEhw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-26T19:24:10.601+0000)

Summoner spells should all be removed and placed on items

blink dagger 2k17

This sounds kind of dangerous, depending on which items get what spells. And how would you keep a champion from getting 2 or 3 summoner spells based on the items they picked, if the spells stay on the item until final build? That aside let's not forget that Flash is taken on almost 100% of all champions regardless of position played and drowns out other choices b/c of it's defensive and offensive capabilities.

Big Lincoln10 votes

then u have shit stats from those items and you're both squishy and will barely do much dmg

Guy Fox Teemo17 votes

The thing about flash is; Its a good part of the game. League is an ever changing game that has huge patchs very often; But there are some things in the game that need to stay in the game for balance to not be out whack like it was in season 1 or 2 when flash was not mandatory.

WHen you have something like flash available you can slightly tune every single champion around it; Its kind your "Control" in an experiment and everything else is a variable, without the control everything goes to shit and it usually fucks it.

It would be cool too see a world without flash but the amount of work it would take to re-balance the game would be an astronomical amount because of how much the game is balanced on flash existing. The benefit of removing flash (IF there is any, I have ZERO problem it being mandatory), is almost next to none.

What do you get out of removing it? Oh you get to pick a different summoner spell..... But in trade for that you take over a year of developers time trying to fix the game because flash is gone. Interesting but almost 1000% not worth it even a little bit. Its part of too much the games balance to be removed. And I don't think you realize that.

cyberbullied6 votes

Considering that much of Riot's design philosophy centers on "counterplay" I think you're right. There are situations that flash feels required for. Annie flash tibbers/stun. As an ADC(ashe, twitch, jinx, etc) the counter play is to flash this interaction, however. if the expectation is that the only way to counterplay flash interactions is also to flash, then as a summoner spell its meaningless.

The biggest problem with flash is that rit makes it incredibly hard for melee champions to interact with ranged champions unless they also have flash. lets take darius for instance, without flash in the game he must stack movement speed. being kited by ranged champions requires his kit to be otherwise stronger than ranged champions to balance this sort of discrepancy. Champions with no movement powers would suffer, yes. but this summoner spell's usage to let champions escape from situations they could never escape from is why the ADC position is constantly in a struggle to be correctly balanced. We saw last season with the Lucian's domination of the meta his range and movement allowed him to consisently escape to reliably from poor situations.

Flash is hard to balance around, but if 98% of all champions use it. It doesnt need to be balance. because its constant. if riot wanted to remove flash they would have to remove or rebalance every champion with a movement/dash power in the game.

ZephyrDrake13 votes

the only people who want flash removed are those salty people who have NO IDEA what they are talking about. The entire game is balanced around it, it gives so many options for all types of play. There are so many plays that wouldn't be possible at all to be made without it. Adding a random item that only gives flash and nothing else is just going to go against everything that the item system in League stands for. Dota and League have two very different ways in handling their items so if one item works there it might do poorly here and vice-versa unless it's changed to fit the designs of this or Dota's items. Saying that "oh nothing will change without it" or "lots of other champions will be viable without it" are so blinded by their biased it's actually kinda hilarious.

Flash as it stands right now? cannot be removed unless there is a MAJOR change into how the game itself works and a HUGE change to the vast majority of the champion roster. This is not "let's remove clarity/revive" lvls or "nothing will change" it will affect everything, from game balance, game pacing, what plays are available for us to use among many other small little things.

LegitBacon6612 votes

Im down for this. Less bullshit and more mechanical skill will be required then.

Commit Sudoku10 votes

if flash was removed we would probably see a lot less deaths and less aggressive play meaning games would last longer which i just don't want to see

WoonStruck49 votes

???

That's exactly what the game needs right now anyway.

League is supposed to be a strategy game, not a fast-paced nuclear arms race. Pretty much everyone agrees on that.

It Hertz When IP7 votes

Not according to Riot and LCS viewers. They want their fun in small, bite size packets that don't require much attention span.

rtbf761092714 votes

Very few people want to watch 10 hours of lcs where every fight in its entirety could be put into a 10 minute montage

It Hertz When IP3 votes

I get that, but some games are just more entertaining to watch than others. Imagine if chess was changed to involve rubber band sniping of enemy pieces and you were occasionally allowed to jab your opponent in the eye just to make it more exciting. Would it be more interesting to watch? Yes. But you would have ruined the game, and are very clearly missing the point of it.

Jeddy0173 votes

What The fuck are you smoking? If anything without flash, it would be more easier to get kills without having to worry about the enemy flashing away. Yes, it can't be used aggressively anymore. But the same can be said for defensive uses of flash.

Commit Sudoku8 votes

{quoted}

What The fuck are you smoking? If anything without flash, it would be more easier to get kills without having to worry about the enemy flashing away. Yes, it can't be used aggressively anymore. But the same can be said for defensive uses of flash.

it would be harder to get kills because people wont be going for kills as much without flash being in the game is what im saying there will likely be more emphasis on playing safe laners that can avoid ganks and farming

Spaceman5pff7 votes

Counterpoint:

Laners with mobility to get away could be much more valuable.

Dextix LT6 votes

Counterpoint: They already are.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

not really

Dextix LT4 votes

How so? If a mobile and a non-mobile champ both have flash, this is nothing. both of them will achieve nothing. If the flash was gone, the same thing would happen.

If everyone has the same summoner skill, it is the same as noone having it.

TheHypeGoku8 votes

If flash is removed, what does an immobile champion do in Jarvan ult? Just die?

Brain Errör 40424 votes

The same thing that would happen if their flash was on CD.

WolfBV7 votes

Yes, otherwise what use is Jarvan's ult.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Shouldn't be a point click "Kill" button is what.

rtbf761092716 votes

There is nothing wrong with a short range trap spell from a melee champion. You shouldnt be in range of it when playing a champion which will simply die if they are caught in it. Through positioning with your team well and their peel

NineTailedMystic5 votes

With nonexistent Flash J4 can just run at you, potentially with Dead Man's, E Q if need be, and just R you with nothing you can do about it.

rtbf761092716 votes

whats your point? It's supposed to be that way. If you are a carry which doesn't function well alone and nobody is there to peel for you, you deserve to die in a 1v1 against an assassin or diver

NineTailedMystic8 votes

Because having nothing you can do about something just because of your champion pick is bad design. Shouldn't just die because J4 said so.

Welcome to why the Assassin's were reworked. To give their opponents the opportunity to live.

WoonStruck5 votes

Wrong. It was to give them an opportunity to react.

J4, in his most common form, is not going to nuke you down faster than an assassin ever did.

Even if you argue 'full AD J4', he nukes you down with just E-Q-auto->R. You don't get to flash anyway.


Besides, League is the embodiment of bad design.

They're still trying to recover from it, but they just keep adding more.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

React often means live. Being able to react means you can Flash, dash, Heal, Barrier, Exhaust, Zhonya's, or whatever may save your life.

Spaceman5pff3 votes

Then they will be like "but i can't use anything other than heal I am an ADC"

When the smart ones know full damn well that the meta doesn't mean shit if they have a fuckton of divers that you need to exhaust

rtbf761092714 votes

Assassins were NOT reworked in a way which was supposed to allow adc's to live in a 1v1 scenario where the assassin jumped on the adc and used ultimate. They were reworked in a way where if the adc was right by their team, the assassin couldnt just jump them an blow them up in less than human reaction time Leblanc Rengar Fizz even though their team was right there and supposedly able to peel for them

if you are an adc or mage or mage support and an assassin jumps on you in a 1v1, on equal terms of gold and ultimate cooldowns the assassin should win.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

No. The Assassin should not win just because they're an Assassin. If Zed ults you and you dodge all 2/3 Shurikens, you should live. If you dodge LeBlanc's tether(s), you should live. If you avoid Kat's daggers, you should live. And so on.

The counter to one of the most mechanically intensive classes should not be Game Knowledge only. You should be able to beat an Assassin by outplaying them mechanically also.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Shouldn't just die because J4 said so.

JarvanIV Who dares defy my will?!

Spaceman5pff2 votes

You make a good point.

I totally disagree with your positioning argument, as far as being too close to J4, since he can engage on you from further than almost any champion, flash or not.

However, if you are sitting alone as a squishy champion, you fucked up and deserve to be punished by the enemy team.

IcyPepper3 votes

So he uses his entire kit, supplemented with specific items, and you get to escape with flash.

Doesn't sound very fair to the J4, now does it?

Surprisingly, his ult has a radius. It doesn't make one champion suddenly separate from their team. Why shouldn't you get punished for shit positioning?

RainbowIcee6 votes

well what can a champion do if annie flash tibbers you? just wait for the screen to stop being gray ?

Wînter Fox6 votes

I'm certain the PBE isn't their only test realm. The fact of the matter is Flash gives SO MUCH to the game: kills, escapes, baron/dragon steals, big plays, combos, even screw ups. It's way too integral to the game. They call them flashy plays for a reason

WoonStruck6 votes

Riot's internal testing isn't as prolific as you think. Its actually really, really unreliable. Plus, you can't really test something like Flash's removal without getting a HUGE sample for the impact.

10 or so guys saying "I don't like how it feels" or "lol I don't know how to position with Annie so I feel useless" is not good enough, especially because they'd probably be trying out champions that heavily rely on it like Annie and Galio for some asinine reason when there are over 100 champions that matter more and would be impacted much, much less.


Flash doesn't give as much to the game as you think.

Here are some better options:

Actually needing to play well for a kill.

Actually needing to play well to escape.

Actually needing to position well to steal baron/dragon.

Actually needing to play well to make big plays.

There are no flash 'combos' (Combos that actually rely on flash), only combos where you can engage with flash...which again could be made up for by actually playing well.

Mispositioning would easily replace fail-flashes because that's generally what you're already doing when you fail flash.


Pun not appreciated, and hopefully you aren't ignorant enough to be serious.

Jorencice5 votes

Without flash it would be almost impossible to steal baron against 5 people.

There LITERALLY nothing positioning could do against a sneaky baron when you have no back up if your champion doesnt have a built in jump.

WoonStruck2 votes

Blasting cone.

Salron6 votes

Enemy blows it up before starting baron ¿

SithesisLord5 votes

A) Riot has never tested a cycle with its removal on the PBE.

But most likely internally tested it. As crappy as their internal testing is, that´s how the PBE even receives changes. Most if not all changes on PBE are passed through internal testing and approved.

B) Just as many, if not more, champions would be viable, even if the ones at the top would change completely. The ones that aren't at the top and get hit really hard by Flash's removal would stay exactly the same: unused and still needing Riot's attention.

Oh yeah, i would be so excited to see half the champion roster get shafted because of Flash's removal, regardless of said champions' usefulness in certain comps, which would either not exist anymore or be severely impaired.

C) Flash keeps strong champions stronger than weak ones because they make better use of Flash in most cases. I can't stress this one enough.

Flash also keeps League from becoming a shitfest of mobility by allowing immobile champions to actually get away. Because, let´s be real here, there´s no way in this universe an imombile champion is ever escaping death by a mobile champion, regardless of how perfect their positioning is or how safe they play. Riven can towerdive someone and get out on most cases. So can Yasuo, Irelia, Renekon, Pantheon. All of these and more would see considerably increased play due to how mobile they are and how poor towers are nowadays.

D) Flash's removal would be a smaller meta-shift than many pre-season/mid-season changes they've made.

It wouldn´t really. Mobile champions would cuck immobile champions even harder and with even less counterplay.

Towerdives would happen more often, especially with towers firing airsoft pellets at people plus tower first blood.

Mid would become the Assassin(and Ahri) Grand Central Station, resulting in Kayle and possibly Lissandra being played a lot more. And at Riot, Kayle seeing significant play means Kayle nerfs and Kayle nerfs mean she´ll stop being played and Kayle not being played results in total assassin(and Ahri) dominance of mid lane and the 'ADC in 2017 lul' thing becoming much less of a bad taste meme and more of a reality.

Kassadin may see play mid or top. Or mid and top.

Jungle would possibly change the least, with more Vi, Lee Sin and Hecarim and maybe even the surfacing of Riven into the jungle meta. Hard CC tanks may become needed to actually lock down all the highly mobile, juking bastards, although given the jungle's state, i wouldn´t count on it.

Tank supports with hard CC, i.e. Leona, Nautilus, etc may actually be useful in comparison to now to deal with all the mobility.

Top would see skirmishers and assassins a lot more, making tanks an absolute need in nearly all compositions.

On the other hand, Air Drake may stop being the 'Let´s get it just for RNG to, with any luck, shuffle in a different one' kind of drake.

In essence, we´d see hard CC tanks being used to stop mobility, mages falling out of favor almost completely, Kayle getting played to deal with assassins and consequentially nerfed, Kassadin actually being good, and the jungle staying on mostly the same old shitfest its been for the past season.

E) Only a few champions heavily rely on Flash. Riot tries using them as examples for why they shouldn't remove it when they are an extreme minority and would likely not be any worse off than many other champions in the game currently are.

Flash is either used to allow them to properly hit their rotation, or to simply not get ass blasted by a mobile champion. They would need to receive compensation buffs for the removal of Flash. And the mobile champions who, until those buffs, will ass blast them even harder will have to receive nerfs.

Just that Riot has never actually tested Flash's removal and every time they say its too ingrained in LoL's balance, they don't have any evidence to back that statement up.

Except it would bring a mobility meta no one wants. And an extremely weakened tank meta given jungle changes and not enough viable tank junglers.

It would result in a single extremely long PBE cycle, or several bimonthly ones, due to the fact Riot would need to analyze champion by champion to see who and what needs compensation buffs or nerfs.

Flash is too ingrained in League's balance nowadays. It´s something crucial at this point. Removing it would cause the game to enter a state of even more imbalance than it currently is.

I mean, Vayne is meta. She´s being played a lot, banned a lot and winning more than half the games she's played in.

League where Vayne is meta is League with SERIOUS balance issues. And no one wants more imbalance. There´s only so much people can withstand.

Were Flash removed before becoming borderline mandatory on every champion, and for some, absolutely mandatory, there wouldn´t be issues with removing it.

But as it stands, it´s too necessary to ensure League's questionably slim, but very much existant balance.

Its removal would do more evil than good.

Think release Syndra winrate for around a third of the champion roster, for most if not an entire year. Another third would be walking on thin ice, and the final third would be skyrocketed to quite likely 60%+ winrates.

An exaggeration? Perhaps. We´ll never really know what would truly happen unless Flash really gets removed. Presently, it´s a summoner spell that allows immobility to not be such of an buff warranting issue, and mobility to not become nerf warranting excessive.

Think of the amount of changes just removing Flash would cause.

Towers, items, jungle, champions, masteries, runes. It would be like redeveloping League from the ground up. While that may certainly come with its pros, i.e. less "itallian influence" in the code, the cons unfortunately heavily outweigh even the most valuable of pros.

TL;DR:

Is Flash a balance staple to League? Yes.

Is League better with it? No, i wouldn´t say it´s better.

But i do say it´s a necessary evil to, in more ways than one, make it so that balance is more a fine tuning, less throw it away and build it again from zero kind of ordeal.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

What would doing it on PBE do? If you're suggesting testing it with actual players, PBE is a trash enviroment for that, because it has little the playerbase, and hardly any accurate date found on it.

WoonStruck8 votes

PBE is better than their internal testing though, wouldn't you agree?

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

Considering the constantly changing state of League's metagame, there isn't truly a group of strong champions that are always strong. Every single lane cycles through a huge number of metas over time, and only the jungle meta doesn't include Flash all the time. For supports, we've seen Enchanter metas (with Flash), Tank Support metas (with Flash), and high-damage mages (with Flash). Top lane cycles through tanks, bruisers, bruisery mages, and melee and/or ranged carries on a regular basis, all who use Flash. We've seen hypercarry marksmen, support/utility marksmen, and lane bully marksmen who all get heavy power and all with Flash. There's really no reason to think that Flash would magically weaken some specific set of "strong champions" since there just aren't a specific set of permanently strong champions.

TL;DR point C makes absolutely no sense

WoonStruck8 votes

Assuming Equal gold:

What's going to have more impact?

Darius with Flash, or Garen with Flash?

Answer is obviously Darius.

However, if Flash were removed, he'd have something pretty significant over Darius: Chasing potential/escape potential vs Darius' newfound inconsistency.


What's going to have more impact?

Skarner with Flash, or Udyr with Flash?

Answer is obviously Skarner.

However, if Flash were removed, Udyr has more in-fight power than Skarner, giving a reason to chose him over Skarner's pick-potential, which would become a lot less reliable.


What's going to have more impact?

Tristana with Flash, or Twitch with Flash?

Answer is obviously Twitch.

However, if Flash were removed, Twitch's weakness (mobility) would be more heavily emphasized, while Tristana's strengths (self-peeling/mobility) would be emphasized, giving a reason for her to be picked over Twitch without removing Twitch's strengths.

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