doesn't believe you need to play the game in order to balance it.
Just like a chef never has to taste his own cooking.
Or an architect never has to step inside a building he designed.
Or a filmmaker never has to watch his rough cuts.
What a disgustingly careless attitude.
RiotGhostcrawler33 votesI made that point to help rebut the common internet attitude that if you let players who play thousands of hours of a game balance that game, that you will somehow end up with a more balanced game. My point was that being highly skilled at winning a game and being highly skilled at balancing a game are different skills. But it's cool. I know part of the fun is to lift comments out of context so they seem more controversial. :)
From a purely theoretical standpoint, you probably can balance a game if you never play it. I wouldn't recommend it, and I've certainly never tried it. The only way I know how to balance a game personally is to be really intimately familiar with it, though again, that isn't enough - it's just a starting point.
I'm also not on the specific team that balances LoL, and I think they do a better job than I would personally be able to do.
Nausicäa 3 votesMaybe someone that played thousands of hours couldnt handle the minute details and numbers of balancing the game, but they certainly could identify balance problems MUCH better than your entire company apparently.
Damage in the game has been broken for 8 months and you ONLY now acknowledge it? Id honestly love to know what is wrong with you guys that it took this long when people have been complaining since the start of pre season.
Maybe if you got your heads out of your spreadsheets and actually played the game you would have noticed this problem earlier.
Quiet Dude8 votesHe said he isn't responsible for balancing the game. Riot recently stated they are nerfing the damage runes. Are you just being angry at Ghostcrawler because it's cathartic? Wanna talk about it?
Riot is doing something homie, chillax, it's all good.
Akumu3 votes[{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w0fAJlx0,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T21:10:01.977+0000)
He said he isn't responsible for balancing the game. Riot recently stated they are nerfing the damage runes. Are you just being angry at Ghostcrawler because it's cathartic or did you have a bad day at school?
Riot is doing something homie, chillax, it's all good.
Yes they are doing something 8 months later. How is that acceptable? It took them this long simply to acknowledge the issue, let alone begin solving it. The point still stands that many people have been complaining about higher damage since the start of pre season and Riot did nothing but claim everything is the same. And now suddenly they pull a 180 saying actually no damage did increase. How the fuck did it take 8 months to come to the same conclusion that players did at the start of the year?
Quiet Dude3 votesYes they are doing something 8 months later. How is that acceptable? It took them this long simply to acknowledge the issue, let alone begin solving it.
I don't know, I don't balance a game for living. Do you? If you have experience, then I'm sure you would know better than me.
The point still stands that many people have been complaining about higher damage since the start of pre season and Riot did nothing but claim everything is the same. And pull a 360 saying actually no damage did increase. How the fuck did it take 8 months to come to the same conclusion that players did at the start of the year?
Once again, I have no idea. I don't run the logistics at Riot and don't work on their game (or games, if the EVO leaks have anything to say about it). But if you have inside experience on their workings, I'll be glad to hear how it's supposed to be done.
By all means, enlighten me. You seem to know.
Akumu2 votes[{quoted}](name=Quiet Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w0fAJlx0,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T21:17:21.645+0000)
I don't know, I don't balance a game for living. Do you? If you have experience, then I'm sure you would know better than me.
Once again, I have no idea. I don't run the logistics at Riot and don't work on their game (or games, if the EVO leaks have anything to say about it). But if you have inside experience on their workings, I'll be glad to hear how it's supposed to be done.
By all means, enlighten me. You seem to know.
You dont need to be a game designer to know that leaving your game in a shit state for 8 months without even acknowledging the issues and worse claiming they dont exist isnt acceptable, all you need is common sense. Im sorry that you lack even that. Keep being a Riot apologist though, because that seems like a good use of your time.
Quiet Dude5 votesOk mr. I-know-how-it-all-works, keep being an angry boi, maybe next time we can have a mature, angry free discussion
EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votesIt wasn't a problem early in the season when tanks were strong. Back then everyone was complaining top laners did no damage and had to play tanks
Fisherman Fizz3 votesI think having people that are GOOD at the game is still 100% necessary to balance a game properly, but the people balancing do not necessarily have to be those people as long as they are well informed by the people that are. I would say there's 3 important aspects you need to have to balance:
Expert Knowledge
Stats/Data, both quant and qual
Design Knowledge
The people that do the balancing are the ones I think mostly need Design Knowledge, and to make balancing changes need to be properly informed by the playtest team (Expert Knowledge) and Insights team (Stats/Data). As long as they have the right information to work with when balancing I don't think they necessarily need to be good at the game. I think people are failing to understand that balancing is a team effort.
Anatera4 votesI made that point to help rebut the common internet attitude that if you let players who play thousands of hours of a game balance that game, that you will somehow end up with a more balanced game. My point was that being highly skilled at winning a game and being highly skilled at balancing a game are different skills. But it's cool. I know part of the fun is to lift comments out of context so they seem more controversial. :)
From a purely theoretical standpoint, you probably can balance a game if you never play it. I wouldn't recommend it, and I've certainly never tried it. The only way I know how to balance a game personally is to be really intimately familiar with it, though again, that isn't enough - it's just a starting point.
I'm also not on the specific team that balances LoL, and I think they do a better job than I would personally be able to do.
I never said you were in charge of balancing. The fact that these words came out of your mouth at all, in context or otherwise and considering someone with your particular job title + level of responsibility, is a symptom of poor design philosophy within Riot. One that we are seeing and experiencing right now.
And yeah, balancing and being skilled are different things. Yet, you've conveniently forgotten a type of player that makes up the vast majority of the game's population. You know, the average player. If all you're focused on is stats and pro players, you don't believe the average player is free from the effect of those changes, do you? Why do you think there's so much negativity around these days? Because many players who identify as average feel neglected and ignored.
How the game feels and plays to them is the BIGGEST part of the game, regardless of whether your quarterly financial report says Esports or advertising is because they are the foundation this game is built on. Without average players to watch pro players, there is no pro scene. Without average players to play the game, there is no game to balance. How they experience the game IS important. And yet, very little Riot has done even suggests any of you care about them (arbitrarily increasing assassin damage and tanking overall MR and armor doesn't count). The barebones amount of communication over these last few months is also plenty indicative of that. And if the lack of communication is a result of Riot's intense desire to design a great game, why not just say that? It takes all of one paragraph. So is the speed at which major issues are addressed.
So tell me why I should take that quote and the subsequent explanation seriously, in context or otherwise? So much of Riot barely seems like they care, so why should anyone else? Is it by virtue of the fact that they're a big company that we should care?
I'll be honest, I'm not sure why I wrote all this. I don't believe for a second that you or anyone at Riot will give it the time of day, even though I wrote candidly and openly, so why bother? Might as well be shouting at a wall.
Crett2 votesi think we shouldn't be shouting at things anyway; ranting at riot employees about them personally to their face has historically not gotten awesome results, and rioters have stated again and again that no single employee represents their entire design philosophy.
i don't know what their job is like, but from my experience i feel like this is the kind of feedback that's too much to easily engage in (even barring the inflammatory tone)
as soon as someone brings up the big picture (talking about how the game's business model functions and how the game's balance relates to it), the discussion becomes extremely loaded. now they have to explain all about what they think riot is about and how they really do care etc etc etc. which they've done before.
i'm definitely not saying your frustration isn't valid! but i wouldn't put it past any rioter not to give this flavor of feedback a response.
they'd have to hunker down and commit to a public discussion (especially one where they've been personally targeted) where they have to be on the defensive right from the beginning, maybe even spending an hour or two writing a reply, when they could be doing really anything else. it's sometimes productive to spend that hour, but i imagine this particular one's been spent a fair amount of times already.
i don't think it's cynical not to expect a response, it's realistic; it's not a constructive topic!
in any case, excuse me if im coming off as contentious, i've lost a bit of sleep lately
Anatera1 votesi think we shouldn't be shouting at things anyway; ranting at riot employees about them personally to their face has historically not gotten awesome results, and rioters have stated again and again that no single employee represents their entire design philosophy.
i don't know what their job is like, but from my experience i feel like this is the kind of feedback that's too much to easily engage in (even barring the inflammatory tone)
as soon as someone brings up the big picture (talking about how the game's business model functions and how the game's balance relates to it), the discussion becomes extremely loaded. now they have to explain all about what they think riot is about and how they really do care etc etc etc. which they've done before.
i'm definitely not saying your frustration isn't valid! but i wouldn't put it past any rioter not to give this flavor of feedback a response.
they'd have to hunker down and commit to a public discussion where they have to be on the defensive right from the beginning, maybe even spending an hour or two writing a reply, when they could be doing really anything else. it's sometimes productive to spend that hour, but i imagine this particular one's been spent a fair amount of times already.
i don't think it's cynical not to expect a response, it's realistic; it's not a constructive topic!
in any case, excuse me if im coming off as contentious, i've lost a bit of sleep lately
No worries. I think what you said is pretty reasonable, so I don't have any problem talking to you in a more calm manner. But the fact is, what I'm saying here has been said over and over and over again, by people far more eloquent and civil than me, only to be ignored because they're "nobody important." Who do you have to be to actually get Riot's attention? A shareholder?
Of course, I also don't know what their job is like and I don't have all the details of their workflow, nor do I don't pretend to, but when other games can more deliver more consistent results with fewer employees and fewer resources, what am I supposed to think about Riot then? That they deserve to be slow and have sloppy execution? Because they're Riot?
There's certainly a level of detail that a conversation like this can reach where it wouldn't be so loaded, but that's up to them to determine. Unfortunately there's a difference between that and silence. From what I've seen, they don't give nearly enough information about their process for us to have a clear picture of how they do things, or even have enough to guess because of all the holes they leave out. And all the people making excuses on their behalf...
"They're on vacation for christmas."
"Wait until the season starts, it's only preseason."
"They can't balance because of LCS and Worlds."
Since when was it appropriate to make excuses for a company as massive as Riot, who is also backed by one of the world's largest publishers? Why is it OK to excuse them for 4 months straight, while major issues plague the game? Riot has always had a spotty record when it came to game development and balance, but this is a whole other level of ineptitude. One that's unignorable by pretty much everybody.
Crett3 voteswell to begin with i don't think we should blame any one rioter, or put pressure on any single rioter to respond to us. for one thing, any one rioter definitely isn't equipped to inform us about all the design decisions or the process of change.
but as far as I can tell, riot has many meticulous layers that need to be passed before large changes can go through, or even problems can be addressed, unless they're so bad they need a hotfix, and it's not an issue of resources or manpower. the design and balance guys aren't the same people, after all and even internally they don't all agree with eachother, so big team definitely slows it down a bit. they schedule big changes during preseason for a reason, usually i think because they have a very good view of the landscape after a year has passed with the last big changes; it informs their next changes. i think it also is a middle ground for addressing the flak from two directions, as they've actually received a lot of backlash for changing things too quickly as well as too slowly, and of the value of allowing the meta to settle. perhaps they took that to heart and hoped things would work out? and at the same time it tells them of the value of the changes they've made. i'm certain they've taken SOMETHING from the past 3 seasons, so i hope riot's going to come out with great changes next season.
that's the IDEAL anyway, but i've been whining about snowball and anti-tank mechanics since season 6! i couldn't tell you why it's taken them this long to address my issues with the game, but for whatever reason, i'm the type to reserve judgement and see where they go with it. they ARE addressing many issues now so that's refreshing for me.
i liked many changes! new rune system is very cool to me, jungle changes were also cool. drake system? well. i hate infernal drake and mountain drake, others are cool.
but i really disliked many changes (namely the steady, relentless increase of again, damage, snowball and anti-tank mechanics).
but again and again i asked myself, "maybe the game they wanted to make and the game i wanted to play are not the same thing?"
i've never known the answer to that, but i can't quite quit until i do.
Anatera2 voteswell to begin with i don't think we should blame any one rioter, or put pressure on any single rioter to respond to us. for one thing, any one rioter definitely isn't equipped to inform us about all the design decisions or the process of change.
but as far as I can tell, riot has many meticulous layers that need to be passed before large changes can go through, or even problems can be addressed, unless they're so bad they need a hotfix. the design and balance guys aren't the same people, after all and even internally they don't all agree with eachother, so big team definitely slows it down a bit. they schedule big changes during preseason for a reason, usually i think because they have a very good view of the landscape after a year has passed with the last big changes; it informs their next changes. i think it also is a middle ground for addressing the flak from two directions, as they've actually received a lot of backlash for changing things too quickly as well as too slowly, and of the value of allowing the meta to settle. perhaps they took that to heart and hoped things would work out? and at the same time it tells them of the value of the changes they've made. i hope that with all the negative experiences, riot's going to come out with great changes next season.
that's the IDEAL anyway, but i've been whining about snowball and anti-tank mechanics since season 6! i couldn't tell you why it's taken them this long to address my issues with the game, but for whatever reason, i'm the type to reserve judgement and see where they go with it.
i liked many changes! new rune system is very cool to me, jungle changes were also cool. drake system? well. i hate infernal drake and mountain drake, others are cool.
but i really disliked many changes (namely the steady, relentless increase of again, snowball and anti-tank mechanics).
but again and again i asked myself, "maybe the game they wanted to make and the game i wanted to play are not the same thing?"
i've never known the answer to that, but i can't quite quit until i do.
I'm not necessarily blaming GC for the whole problem, but to say he has no role in shaping the game is just incorrect. I only brought him up because that specific quote was his and highlights a problem with Riot as a whole. Perhaps I could've worded it better, but I didn't think it was that hard to understand (that's just me though). And to be honest, if changes are being slowed down because of all the layers they have to go through, etc., that is, ultimately, an internal company issue with their workflow and the player shouldn't be forced to feel its effects. That's not what a player is meant to do.
Of course, I have my opinions of what the game should be and I'm not expecting anyone to listen to me and follow my opinions, but at the very least Riot could've responded to the consistently increasing attitude among players that the game isn't fun anymore because of all the pointless mechanics and damage they keep introducing. The answer is not to wait months and months before finally acknowledging there might be a problem. The first step to solving a problem is to acknowledge there is one. They spent half a year getting to the first step.
AtaxiChaos1 votesPrediction for what will be taken out of context from this:
I wouldn't recommend it, and I've certainly never tried it.
Ghostcrawler on game balance, 2018
La Bello1 votesQUICK TO DEAD THE BULL LIKE A MATADOR
BULL BULL BULL LIKE A MATADOR
ModPeriscope2 votesNext you’ll tell us John Williams has never watched a Star Wars movie. Look it up, boards nation.
HungryAngry2SPP3 votesI made that point to help rebut the common internet attitude that if you let players who play thousands of hours of a game balance that game, that you will somehow end up with a more balanced game. My point was that being highly skilled at winning a game and being highly skilled at balancing a game are different skills. But it's cool. I know part of the fun is to lift comments out of context so they seem more controversial. :)
From a purely theoretical standpoint, you probably can balance a game if you never play it. I wouldn't recommend it, and I've certainly never tried it. The only way I know how to balance a game personally is to be really intimately familiar with it, though again, that isn't enough - it's just a starting point.
I'm also not on the specific team that balances LoL, and I think they do a better job than I would personally be able to do.
Why you even bother reposding to him...he's just a mad guy...
SEKAI9 votesA friendly reminder that problems in companies aren't created by a single person only.
Riot's internal culture and policies as a whole are largely to blame for the current situation.
Curious Kat5 votesA friendly reminder that problems in companies aren't created by a single person only.
Riot's internal culture and policies as a whole are largely to blame for the current situation.
IDK man, did you see what Ghostcrawler did to WoW? He is single handedly responsible for so much that is wrong with that game. And it got so bad he left the company because they could not fix what he did to it. Now he comes to Riot, and the game spirals into an unenjoyable braindead tardo fest just like what happened to WoW. Doesn't it seem a little bit coincidental?
SEKAI5 votesIDK man, did you see what Ghostcrawler did to WoW? He is single handedly responsible for so much that is wrong with that game. And it got so bad he left the company because they could not fix what he did to it. Now he comes to Riot, and the game spirals into an unenjoyable braindead tardo fest just like what happened to WoW. Doesn't it seem a little bit coincidental?
If anything, Ghostcrawler while likely was a part of the actual problem, but the thing with people blaming everything on him rather than him being the mastermind of all the bad things in the world, he was most likely just kicked out to be this sacrificial lamb that sticks its heard forward for the angry people to chop at.
I am not saying Ghostcrawler has made no problems. However especially in company settings, problems are rarely if ever the consequential result of the decisions from 1 single person. It's usually a series and combination of many individual faults from many people that lead to the said problems.
Ghostcrawler is likely the symptom, but not as likely as the actual problem itself.
KazaJhodo2 votesIf anything, Ghostcrawler while likely was a part of the actual problem, but the thing with people blaming everything on him rather than him being the mastermind of all the bad things in the world, he was most likely just kicked out to be this sacrificial lamb that sticks its heard forward for the angry people to chop at.
I am not saying Ghostcrawler has made no problems. However especially in company settings, problems are rarely if ever the consequential result of the decisions from 1 single person. It's usually a series and combination of many individual faults from many people that lead to the said problems.
Ghostcrawler is likely the symptom, but not as likely as the actual problem itself.
Leaders are responsible for their teams.
EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votesErr ok WotLK was a pretty drastic improvement over tBC, did you even play WoW back then?
I always find people who say this about WoW a bit... stupid. They've made mistakes with that game but also a lot of good changes
LORDCRUSHINGT0N2 votesIDK man, did you see what Ghostcrawler did to WoW? He is single handedly responsible for so much that is wrong with that game. And it got so bad he left the company because they could not fix what he did to it. Now he comes to Riot, and the game spirals into an unenjoyable braindead tardo fest just like what happened to WoW. Doesn't it seem a little bit coincidental?
ha this is beautiful he cant be happy with fucking over wow he needs to do it with league as well
Anatera1 votesA friendly reminder that problems in companies aren't created by a single person only.
Riot's internal culture and policies as a whole are largely to blame for the current situation.
I never said it was, but ok.
SEKAI1 votesI never said it was, but ok.
Then not sure why you're targeting him specifically if not to blame him for something, which it would appear you're talking about game balance judging by the OP.
And that's where my claims come in, that I believe GC is more of a symptom, rather than the actual and real problems Riot is having atm (which I blame the issue at the internal culture and policies at Riot, rather than GC as an individual).
Anatera1 votesThen not sure why you're targeting him specifically if not to blame him for something, which it would appear you're talking about game balance judging by the OP.
And that's where my claims come in, that I believe GC is more of a symptom, rather than the actual and real problems Riot is having atm.
Probably because he's one of the people in charge of heading the teams that deal with this? I never said it was entirely his fault, but I didn't say he was free from it either. There is such a thing as a middle ground.
pseudo dionysius1 votesJust a follow up to this. There seems to be alot of growing pains going on internally within the company.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Riot-Games-Reviews-E247538.htm
Patiently waiting for Rlewis to blow the lid on some of the stuff going on this company.
DearPear7 votesA friendly reminder that he himself said exactly the opposite.
Lauchmelder5 votesFriends reminder that Ghostcrawler is right on that.
It makes it a fuckton easier to do if you play it though.
D357R0Y3R5 votesterrible thread that does not know anything ghostcrawler said he fucking legt said the opposite like 3 times
Kai Guy3 votesI don't like some of the comparisions you made.
Grant Achatz Lost his ability to taste for years and still kicked ass at his job. Chef.
Lots of architects don't have to step into the buildings they designed? Some one made the model for prefab homes, some one made the design for trailer homes, they don't visit every one produced yea?
Anatera1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=w0fAJlx0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-03T09:29:22.770+0000)
I don't like some of the comparisions you made.
Grant Achatz Lost his ability to taste for years and still kicked ass at his job. Chef.
Lots of architects don't have to step into the buildings they designed? Some one made the model for prefab homes, some one made the design for trailer homes, they don't visit every one produced yea?
Achatz did not have no sense of taste for his entire life. Also, I believe he is still able to feel the texture of food on his tongue.
There is no such thing as an architect that has never stepped inside a single building he's made, by virtue of the fact that there are design elements inside buildings that have to be inspected, or at a minimum, glanced at by said architect.
Firebeard2 votesI'm not too sure who Ghostcrawler is. Riot used to be my favorite company. I used to love the old lore (R.I.P Institute of war) and my dream career was to be on the lore dev team. Then Riot botched Varus's lore and lied about it. Personally I stopped caring about it (the game, I still get sad thinking about what Varus is to who he was). I only play because Skyrim gets old after 100+ hours in a week. League is addicting, but not worth your time and energy to care about. Cut off your emotional investments with this game and you will enjoy it more. Riot stopped caring about us older players.
KazaJhodo1 votesWhoa whoa whoa.
Shouldn't we stop talking? We might offend someone.
DW Diana1 votesI smell a Meme brewing! xD
