Champions require more and more to know exactly how to play against them

Photos of Ghosts·Jan 12, 2016·77 votes·3,245 views

And it's fine, but can we then update and improve the tips in the client?

41 Comments

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 201618 votes

according to zileas you don't need them, because spells that need the tooltip to be read are anti-fun and riot tries to not do those kind of spells

"Burden of Knowledge This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious."

Best princess EUJan 12, 20166 votes

{quoted}

according to zileas you don't need them, because spells that need the tooltip to be read are anti-fun and riot tries to not do those kind of spells

"Burden of Knowledge This is a VERY common pattern amongst hardcore novice game designers. This pattern is when you do a complex mechanic that creates gameplay -- ONLY IF the victim understands what is going on. Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online... So the initial response is extreme frustration. We believe that giving the victim counter gameplay is VERY fun -- but that we should not place a 'burden of knowledge' on them figuring out what that gameplay might be. That's why we like Dark Binding and Black Shield (both of which have bait and/or 'dodge' counter gameplay that is VERY obvious), but not Rupture, which is not obvious."

that's completely fucking retarded

what about thresh's lantern?

137434Jan 12, 201614 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vtPt90Qb,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T21:09:47.844+0000) what about thresh's lantern?

That is why there are a bunch of arrows pointing you to the lantern when you are near it...

Burden of knowledge was one of the (many) issues that Riot had with Poppy's old ult as well. It is also more forgiving if it is a defensive ability (like Thresh's lantern) than an offensive ability.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

That is why there are a bunch of arrows pointing you to the lantern when you are near it...

Burden of knowledge was one of the (many) issues that Riot had with Poppy's old ult as well. It is also more forgiving if it is a defensive ability (like Thresh's lantern) than an offensive ability.

Kindred ulti TahmKench ulti (new players won't have their cursor on your mouth) Ekko ulti clone (how can people know that you're going to dash on a clone?) RekSai i once had a shaco that didn't know that rek'sai can see people around her and tried to juke a team of 5 people by going backward.

zileas was wrong and a lot of players told him, it is nearly impossible to play without reading the tooltip of the champs, i know it because my brother in silver 5 never read the patch/spells of champ he doesn't know and that's why he is losing.

137434Jan 12, 201612 votes

Nobody is expecting you to immediately know what a new ability does the first time you see it or encounter a champion, but you should be able to quickly figure out what the ability does and what the champion is capable of.

Kindred's ult has a clear zone, and it does not take long to figure out you cannot kill someone in it. Tahm's ult has the same arrows has Thresh's lantern has (I think- could be wrong) It is immediately obvious the first time you see Ekko ult what that trail/clone is and what Ekko can do with it.

Admittedly Rek's burrow vision requires some extra knowledge on the enemies part.

An example of burden of knowledge is when you see/experience something repeatedly and are still unclear about what it does. Poppy's ult, for example, had hard to see particles (especially in the old days before many particles were cleaned up) that made it hard to see that she was in a special ulted state. Hitting her when she ulted did no damage (assuming you are not the one ulted) which trains you not to hit her when you see the ult particles on her. But it was not immediately noticeable if you were the ult target, and that if you were you COULD hurt/stop Poppy, or that Poppy did extra damage to you.

ACENOXJan 12, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Nobody is expecting you to immediately know what a new ability does the first time you see it or encounter a champion, but you should be able to quickly figure out what the ability does and what the champion is capable of.

Kindred's ult has a clear zone, and it does not take long to figure out you cannot kill someone in it. Tahm's ult has the same arrows has Thresh's lantern has (I think- could be wrong) It is immediately obvious the first time you see Ekko ult what that trail/clone is and what Ekko can do with it.

Admittedly Rek's burrow vision requires some extra knowledge on the enemies part.

An example of burden of knowledge is when you see/experience something repeatedly and are still unclear about what it does. Poppy's ult, for example, had hard to see particles (especially in the old days before many particles were cleaned up) that made it hard to see that she was in a special ulted state. Hitting her when she ulted did no damage (assuming you are not the one ulted) which trains you not to hit her when you see the ult particles on her. But it was not immediately noticeable if you were the ult target, and that if you were you COULD hurt/stop Poppy, or that Poppy did extra damage to you.

the problem with kindred is that you won't know that you ALSO can't be killed, i got a lot of people in silver that runs from kindred's ulti when they see him immortal they think it's a kind of trynd ulti?. if you don't read the tooltip you will take a long time before discovering it.

It Hertz When IPJan 13, 20164 votes

This. The few times I've played Kindred and thrown down my ult, every one of my teammates turns around and runs.

Photos of GhostsJan 13, 20161 votes

Did they never happen to be in it and get healed? Or just to see it happen to a teammate?

RetillinJan 12, 20163 votes

"Poppy's ult had hard to see particles"

What?

Auz the RipperJan 12, 20164 votes

the large shining golden sphere around poppy and the golden shining columns around her victim were hard to see, didn't you know?

ModAcademy KaynJan 12, 20166 votes

He means it was not clear at all if you had faced a poppy for the first time, and she put her ult on you. Unless you looked it up, or asked, you would not know that she is unkillable and un-cc-able by anyone else but you.

FiskJan 12, 20161 votes

For the most part, what has happened with all of these champions is MOSTLY obvious. Yes there are somethings you have to learn (this is a highly competitive game that is truly hard to play to be honest, I think we need to take this with an in comparison to other hardcore games sorta thing) but on the most part, you can figure out what just happened. "Oh Ekko just used an ability and moved to the highly obvious and highlighted guy following him, that must be one" or "tahm kench just swallowed that guy, I see what happened" or "ok, kindred can't die in her ult" and that one is tricky, but I think over time you will figure out what it does or have a basic understanding of its function (especially since it uses the stasis animation which is the same for every stasis type thing in the game). Rek'sai is trickier though. But most of these champions, you can get a pretty basic understanding of them from playing against them once. And all of these have very definitive animations (something some games lack) which means you can tell "well idk quite what it does but I know I should watch out for that". League has AMAZING game clarity in my opinion. And if it kills you so much and you never get it, you can always google the champ. You'll never need to google a game mechanic or anything, a simple look at the champ's profile will tell you almost everything you need.

MatezoideJan 12, 20161 votes

Thats the same post where he said that Bayonetta giving a joke "Stone award" grade at the end of a stage if the player did horribly was toxic and anti-fun because "muh feelings" IIRC.

rtbf206105905Jan 12, 20166 votes

He meant the tips on the champion's page, such as "Be a bird." for Azir

bahamutkaiserJan 13, 20162 votes

That's an ad hoc example, there are plenty of ridiculous actions and abilities that are indistinguishable without study in LoL, they just pulled it out of their *ss to support whatever point they wanted to support at the moment.

This game has an obsurdly high skill cap, the tutorial modes should exhaustively introduce every feature so players have an idea how champions work. They can make an entire single player campaign out if it.

XeynidJan 13, 20166 votes

At the time this statement was originally made... it couldn't have been after the release of Darius.

Back then pretty much every champion was insanely clearly designed. If you bothered to pay attention to the particle effects, every ability clearly indicated what it was doing, and if you could dodge it, indicated that you could do so.

The problem is, this community is full of people that think that it's inherently bad for multiple champions to have incredibly similar individual abilities. Since Riot can't make two champions with radically different playstyles but similar abilities without the community bitching, they had to get more and more "creative", until it ended up where we are now with every champion needing some really complicated ability to appease the demands.

AhristocatsJan 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

At the time this statement was originally made... it couldn't have been after the release of Darius.

Back then pretty much every champion was insanely clearly designed. If you bothered to pay attention to the particle effects, every ability clearly indicated what it was doing, and if you could dodge it, indicated that you could do so.

The problem is, this community is full of people that think that it's inherently bad for multiple champions to have incredibly similar individual abilities. Since Riot can't make two champions with radically different playstyles but similar abilities without the community bitching, they had to get more and more "creative", until it ended up where we are now with every champion needing some really complicated ability to appease the demands.

the statement was in 2009/2010

beside, complexity is not a bad thing, it's just that riot back in the day wanted to make a casual game for all, that's why they were against burden of knowledge like invoker of dota, or micro management (meepo).

and you like you said this design is a problem because the champions tend to not be creative.

bahamutkaiserJan 13, 20161 votes

All of which does nothing to validate the state which the game is with the the submission of that adage.

The "community" is so large that it includes thousands of ppl of just about any opinion. As the games designers, they are responsible for making the game well despite the quality of conflicting opinions on what should exist.

No amount of contextless quotes or strawmen will redirect that responsibility.

KirbyCakeJan 13, 20168 votes

this is why illaoi is such a poorly designed champion. if i play vs the champion 10 times and still have no idea what her abilities then its a huge design fail

AzlineaJan 13, 20163 votes

spawns tentacles does a line skillshot tentacle slam - ouch does a line skillshot soul grab - gives enemies another version of you to hit, transfers damage, slows and spawns tentacles around you if you leave circle or other version you is killed. empowered auto + dash ult spawns more tentacles and makes them stronger

How do you not know the basics of what her abilities do and how to dodge or counter them? The two biggest unclear things about her are the 3 last hits on tentacles gets rid of the soul grime debuff and you should target her when she pulls your soul not run away. Even then when you run out of circle once youll know not to run away again and the next conclusion will probably be to strike back at her.

Photos of GhostsJan 13, 20162 votes

And empowered auto causes nearby tentacles to do a skillshot smash. And ult makes all nearby tentacles untargetable and autohitting.

snibedi snabJan 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Rupture is a great example -- with Rupture in DOTA, you receive a DOT that triggers if you, the victim, choose to move. However, you have no way of knowing this is happening unless someone tells you or unless you read up on it online...

no way of knowing

Except for the fact you turn bright red, blood starts leaking out of you, you leave a big red trail behind when you run and you LOSE FUCKING LOADS OF HEALTH WHEN YOU MOVE. Zileas confirmed for not knowing jack shit about spatial awareness.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Executive Pigeon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vtPt90Qb,comment-id=00010005,timestamp=2016-01-13T14:25:39.831+0000)

Except for the fact you turn bright red, blood starts leaking out of you, you leave a big red trail behind when you run and you LOSE FUCKING LOADS OF HEALTH WHEN YOU MOVE. Zileas confirmed for not knowing jack shit about spatial awareness.

you hear a song when you move under rupture

Bret Hitman HartJan 13, 20161 votes

That's in Dota 2. In Dota 1 there were only very slight particles. Either way, it's an extreme newbie trap.

jmaishereJan 13, 20164 votes

It's almost like people don't read what skills champions have...

AhristocatsJan 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like people don't read what skills champions have...

actually i had someone in diamond that didn't know about thresh's lantern, i'm sure he was an account buyer, so a lot of bronze players don't read the skills of champions

Photos of GhostsJan 13, 20161 votes

How do you read the opponent's tooltips please? I'm talking about the opponent, not the player.

jmaishereJan 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vtPt90Qb,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-01-13T16:57:39.223+0000)

How do you read the opponent's tooltips please? I'm talking about the opponent, not the player.

It's called reading about the champion before you play the game. It's like if you do fantasy football or whatever, it's good to know the stats of a player before playing them and whatnot.

Photos of GhostsJan 14, 20161 votes

the opponent

SnowFallJan 13, 20163 votes

lel@ abilities in client's champion info not having any numbers

rtbf206105905Jan 12, 20162 votes

And be able to see them in-game again? Riot? Please?

SpoofghoulJan 13, 20162 votes

Aahh burden of knowledge.

I can remember that time where the enemy Poppy kept knocking us to safety and she did not understand what was happening. Apparently she thought oh they are low lets knock em towards my allies. Ofc i told her that her aim was off and that she should keep trying. Hilarious x'D

Photos of GhostsJan 13, 20161 votes

Yea, but he could just READ her tooltip. In the opposite situation, you wouldn't have been able to read her tooltip.

DecritJan 13, 20162 votes

Or at least have a way to read the tooltips of the champions in game, at least for those that you have in team or that you are going to face.

It must not need to be quick to glance at, if you don' t know the enemy so bad probably you are in normals and you have to learn the game so taking few seconds to read something easy to get to should not be bad. Hoping for the new version of the client.

PyrodiniumJan 12, 20161 votes

Because of the use of marks and so on?

I think that is not a new development. A lot of the oldest champions have abilities with subtle interactions as well.

ACENOXJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because of the use of marks and so on?

I think that is not a new development. A lot of the oldest champions have abilities with subtle interactions as well.

examples?

PeponiPoroJan 13, 20162 votes

Urgot Rammus To name a few. Until I was level thirty and started understanding tooltips, I absolutely fucking sucked at these champs. Well, brand is easier because at that level you just spam abilities anyway, but you get what I mean right?