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I hate to say it, but can Kalista be fixed?

Seenan·Oct 20, 2016·7 votes·829 views

Firstly, I'm by no means a Kalista player nor main. I don't even main ADCs...buuuuut...

Tying her attack-speed to her Oathsworn is a terrible idea. It's an ADC, not an A&SDC (Attack & Support Damage Carry(?)). And even worse, it's per level...So she's labelled as a permanently lategame champ for her already atrocious early game due to her Oathsworn needing to be around for her to be at top damage.

And funnily enough, her total attack damage is still at 90%, just because of her hopping mechanic. She doesn't even build attack-damage oriented items until later, so this pretty much helps mess up her early/midgame damage (bork is only 25 damage). All she really needed was to have her dashes be reduced if slowed by cc...and she got that...but other nerfs weren't reverted. If anything, her W max hp% should be per level, since it's leveled last anyway.

I actually like Kalista as a champion, as obnoxious as she was at launch. Facing her as an immobile melee champ is a joke. But dumpstering her is not the way to 'nerf' her.

16 Comments

Attticus FinchOct 20, 20162 votes

Deletion from the game would be a good start, tbh.

RebonackOct 20, 20162 votes

Kalista is a hard counter champion. And when hard counter champions have as much generalist power as she does (objective control, map control, initiation) they totally invalidate whole classes of champions any time they're good.

Kalista needs a new passive, because 'objective control ADC' is a lot more interesting than 'makes melees weep tears of blood ADC'. Preferably a new passive that's thematically tied to vengeance somehow.

SeenanOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kalista is a hard counter champion. And when hard counter champions have as much generalist power as she does (objective control, map control, initiation) they totally invalidate whole classes of champions any time they're good.

Kalista needs a new passive, because 'objective control ADC' is a lot more interesting than 'makes melees weep tears of blood ADC'. Preferably a new passive that's thematically tied to vengeance somehow.

The solution isn't to gut her into oblivion, contrary to what they also did to Azir. Like I said in the OP, making her dashes weaker due to slows is good enough...since there's about 200 things that slow in this game, she can probably be handled. I've never really had a problem with Kalista..except for this one time I was Garen. But Garen needs tweaks anyway.

Miror BOct 20, 20161 votes

She can, but she needs to be finely tuned so that her strengths are actually put forward (none of this patchwork BS that they've been doing for a while now). Rather than making it so her "oathsworn" needs to be around to get buffs, couldn't they do what they did with mordy's w and just make it so that she can use all of her abilities with them being decently weaker w/o the "buddy"? Rather than making the w a passive with the active being ghosts, tie the ghosts to her actual passive (click on it to "summon" them) and allow her to tether the w to minions with a ~15s -1s per level cooldown. Being able to use the ulti with a minion could be another option (with there being a noticable damage difference of like 60-70% without tieing it to an ally). These changes would not only make kalista viable, but would also more or less solve the whole "brokenness" that her kit has had since her release, another fun little side-benefit to it being that if they did even more tuning they could eliminate the black spear item entirely by just having all of the oathsworn stuff stacked onto her w in a format like this:

Passive- Kalista gains 30% attack speed, +15 attack damage, and +15 movement speed while this spell is attached to an allied minion/champion. Kalista instantly loses all benefits of this should the character move out of range or die.

Active: The minion or champion this spell is used on is now your "oathsworn".

SeenanOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She can, but she needs to be finely tuned so that her strengths are actually put forward (none of this patchwork BS that they've been doing for a while now). Rather than making it so her "oathsworn" needs to be around to get buffs, couldn't they do what they did with mordy's w and just make it so that she can use all of her abilities with them being decently weaker w/o the "buddy"? Rather than making the w a passive with the active being ghosts, tie the ghosts to her actual passive (click on it to "summon" them) and allow her to tether the w to minions with a ~15s -1s per level cooldown. Being able to use the ulti with a minion could be another option (with there being a noticable damage difference of like 60-70% without tieing it to an ally). These changes would not only make kalista viable, but would also more or less solve the whole "brokenness" that her kit has had since her release, another fun little side-benefit to it being that if they did even more tuning they could eliminate the black spear item entirely by just having all of the oathsworn stuff stacked onto her w in a format like this:

Passive- Kalista gains 30% attack speed, +15 attack damage, and +15 movement speed while this spell is attached to an allied minion/champion. Kalista instantly loses all benefits of this should the character move out of range or die.

Active: The minion or champion this spell is used on is now your "oathsworn".

Minion? That would be a really short-lived passive.

Miror BOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Minion? That would be a really short-lived passive.

It'd be like how you can tie mordy's w to a minion and have it work sorta. Same stuff, only for a ranged character.

ValyrianBladeOct 20, 20161 votes

Well, I mean, Kalista on release was intended to be a "learner" champion.

She was supposed to teach ADCs and Supports to focus the same target. She was supposed to teach ADCs how to kite. Etc...

All that came directly from Riot at her launch. She was the learner ADC, much like Nunu was the learner jungler.

Now, they completely goofed on that, made her way too hard to play with a huge skill ceiling and one of the top tier ADCs in Challenger but pretty much garbage off the start in silver or bronze. Nerf after nerf to stabilize her in challenger makes her even worse. After all is said and done though, her power really needs to be tied to her oathsworn if she's ever going to work. Challenger supports can't just babysit an ADC all day long because a good support needs to roam a lot at that level of play. However in low elo sticking together is a pretty good strategy - so she can still be the learner ADC with the power allocated that way. Sure, she won't be of any use at most elos, etc... but at least she'd fulfill the role she was intended for.

SeenanOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, I mean, Kalista on release was intended to be a "learner" champion.

She was supposed to teach ADCs and Supports to focus the same target. She was supposed to teach ADCs how to kite. Etc...

All that came directly from Riot at her launch. She was the learner ADC, much like Nunu was the learner jungler.

Now, they completely goofed on that, made her way too hard to play with a huge skill ceiling and one of the top tier ADCs in Challenger but pretty much garbage off the start in silver or bronze. Nerf after nerf to stabilize her in challenger makes her even worse. After all is said and done though, her power really needs to be tied to her oathsworn if she's ever going to work. Challenger supports can't just babysit an ADC all day long because a good support needs to roam a lot at that level of play. However in low elo sticking together is a pretty good strategy - so she can still be the learner ADC with the power allocated that way. Sure, she won't be of any use at most elos, etc... but at least she'd fulfill the role she was intended for.

Source?

Tying her to her oathsworn is why she's so weak right now. She has her E as a smite for objective control, or a smite for people if you get enough stacks. But her damage really only gets good mid-late game when she has her core (usually hurricane/bork/t2 boots) and preferably a bloodthirster or something. Early-mid, she has a a greater sum of issues if her support either dies or goes off to roam than other adcs. Even when she has a bloodthirster, her damage is succeeded by any other ADC because of .9x total AD.

I'm sure she can be a 'learner champ' and still be even remotely viable. I believe she has the lowest winrate in the game, only succeeded by Ivern with a 3-4% lower winrate as a new champion. And this is in PLAT+ elo where her winrate is 39%, not BSG.

ValyrianBladeOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Source?

Tying her to her oathsworn is why she's so weak right now. She has her E as a smite for objective control, or a smite for people if you get enough stacks. But her damage really only gets good mid-late game when she has her core (usually hurricane/bork/t2 boots) and preferably a bloodthirster or something. Early-mid, she has a a greater sum of issues if her support either dies or goes off to roam than other adcs. Even when she has a bloodthirster, her damage is succeeded by any other ADC because of .9x total AD.

I'm sure she can be a 'learner champ' and still be even remotely viable. I believe she has the lowest winrate in the game, only succeeded by Ivern with a 3-4% lower winrate as a new champion. And this is in PLAT+ elo where her winrate is 39%, not BSG.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-reveal/kalista-spear-vengeance-revealed

Under the champion insights section.

VeltoxOct 20, 20161 votes

Delete or rework her extremely bad designed passive. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

notmarkedOct 20, 20161 votes

no fuck off, unless her passive is deleted and replaced with a new one she can stay dead

SeenanOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

no fuck off, unless her passive is deleted and replaced with a new one she can stay dead

It's not that hard to counter if she weren't a buggy mess. AKA when she can still hop around and attack while being ulted by Malz. Lol. At this point, Cait is more cancer as of lately, with her trap queen persona.

DehitayOct 20, 20161 votes

Balancing her is actually rather easy. You just put a cap on the number of spears she can rend from a target. Surprisingly enough, unlimited damage isn't the most balanced game mechanic. In her case moreso than Nasus and Veigar. Not only is hers based on autoattacks instead of a skill, her passive allows her to stick to an enemy with ease.

After that, you can give the rest of her kit the boost it needs. Emphasize her teamwork requirements again.

SeenanOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Balancing her is actually rather easy. You just put a cap on the number of spears she can rend from a target. Surprisingly enough, unlimited damage isn't the most balanced game mechanic. In her case moreso than Nasus and Veigar. Not only is hers based on autoattacks instead of a skill, her passive allows her to stick to an enemy with ease.

After that, you can give the rest of her kit the boost it needs. Emphasize her teamwork requirements again.

This would limit her objective control as well as kill pressure vs super tanks like Nasus. Unless there was some kind of 'bonus' for hitting the max cap, if it were to even happen.

DehitayOct 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This would limit her objective control as well as kill pressure vs super tanks like Nasus. Unless there was some kind of 'bonus' for hitting the max cap, if it were to even happen.

She can afford to not have jungle objective control. I don't know why everybody is so keen on her having jungle objective control in the first place. Junglers are supposed to have that kind of control, not someone built for a position that is meant for sustain damage champions.

Nasus isn't a super tank. He's a bruiser. They're supposed to have a deal of power over adcs in general unless that adc has somebody backing them up. And that's kind of the goal of having power combining with your oathsworn.

The goal in building Kalista was to have somebody that works ideally with a partner champion. The problem is the uncapped damage on rend and her super kiting passive combined made her way too effective by herself. One has to die so that they can return power to her core focus and make her a decent champion again.

SeenanOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She can afford to not have jungle objective control. I don't know why everybody is so keen on her having jungle objective control in the first place. Junglers are supposed to have that kind of control, not someone built for a position that is meant for sustain damage champions.

Nasus isn't a super tank. He's a bruiser. They're supposed to have a deal of power over adcs in general unless that adc has somebody backing them up. And that's kind of the goal of having power combining with your oathsworn.

The goal in building Kalista was to have somebody that works ideally with a partner champion. The problem is the uncapped damage on rend and her super kiting passive combined made her way too effective by herself. One has to die so that they can return power to her core focus and make her a decent champion again.

I would say that Rend stacking gets nerfed on objectives rather than champions then. It's already hard enough stacking on champions as they die particularly fast mid-late game anyway if they're not a tank. She's overnerfed.

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