Personally, i think its because of riots "offense outscales defense" philosophy. Specifically its been taken to an extreme; Items make up 90% of a champions kit, meaning ANY snowball will lead to that offense outscale happening very soon.
That being said, what do you guys think of toning down all AD items by ~20AD, and increasing cooldowns of AD caster abilities by 3-4 seconds (except for waveclear abilities)?
Tahminatrix 1 votesWhy cant they scale evenly.....why cant some defensive champs be late game and coexist with late game damage champs...
They are using a static philosophy for a dynamic game..
Paroe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vro7eleH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-26T08:32:26.440+0000)
Why cant they scale evenly.....why cant some defensive champs be late game and coexist with late game damage champs...
They are using a static philosophy for a dynamic game..
Because 90% of a champions effectiveness comes from the items they buy. Actual tanks like leona and braum cant hold a candle to a bruiser who can waveclear, 1v1, and CC better than them.
y0r1ck1 votesWhat bruiser is going to cc better than those two? You're delusional
Paroe2 votesWhat bruiser is going to cc better than those two? You're delusional
Leona and braum do no damage themselves, and braum is actually DESIGNED to require an ally to be effective. Meanwhile many bruisers have high damage and enough CC to simply blow up anyone that gets caught early on. Further, most bruisers are stickier and have much lower cooldowns than actual, dedicated tanks like leona and braum.
Renekton, single target, compared to tanks, high cd 0.75 stun. Gragas is a tank, if he decides to build like one, otherwise he becomes a mage that provides a lot of damage and cc (basically every mage's main dream). Maokai is a tank. Ekko is a skirmisher/assassin. He can build tanky but he aint a fighter (although he might seem). Brand is a mage and has shitty cc even when compared to renekton. Elise is a diver that has a single target stun with high range and long duration. Irelia has an aoe 0.75 stun and stunning more than two targets is most of the times impossible.
Brusiers are designed to have high damage and just barely cc to reach the targets. Tanks are designed to provided shittons of cc. Learn the difference.
Paroe1 votesRenekton, single target, compared to tanks, high cd 0.75 stun. Gragas is a tank, if he decides to build like one, otherwise he becomes a mage that provides a lot of damage and cc (basically every mage's main dream). Maokai is a tank. Ekko is a skirmisher/assassin. He can build tanky but he aint a fighter (although he might seem). Brand is a mage and has shitty cc even when compared to renekton. Elise is a diver that has a single target stun with high range and long duration. Irelia has an aoe 0.75 stun and stunning more than two targets is most of the times impossible.
Brusiers are designed to have high damage and just barely cc to reach the targets. Tanks are designed to provided shittons of cc. Learn the difference.
Bruisers are designed to have enough CC to lock down targets and burst them down. Further, bruisers ARE divers. By design. "Tank" is a general term - anyone can be a tank. Its an unfortunate fact of riots choice to make specific tank itemization (ZZrot, knights vow, gargoyle stoneplate, etc) tied more to the support side. Also, ekko is most certainly an AP fighter... And with his mobility and stickiness, he is undoubtedly an AP bruiser much like gragas. Brand is a bruiser because his itemization is mostly AP bruiser itemization; RoA, liandries, rylais. All HP/offense items.
Listen... i get its hard to parse the difference between a bruiser and a tank when theyre so similar due to most "tank" core itemization being extremely general, but there IS a difference between them. Tanks are low damage for the most part, as they should be; to that effect modern tanks like poppy and orrn need their champion damage toned down in exchange for minion damage. I would LOVE if poppy's Q %HP was made minion and monster only, and if orrns W did base damage to enemy champions instead of %HP damage.
Bruisers are designed to have enough CC to lock down targets and burst them down. Further, bruisers ARE divers
Exactly what i said. When i said reach them i implied enough to kill them too.
"Tank" is a general term - anyone can be a tank.
No. Tank is a durable champ that has plethora of cc. I can build tank as ashe, but i lack their cc.
Its an unfortunate fact of riots choice to make specific tank itemization
Riot generally is reluctant on making specific items for each class and making be able to buy only those items. But whatever.
Also, ekko is most certainly an AP fighter
Stickiness is something that assassins have too. He has also an escape like every other assassin.
Brand is a bruiser because his itemization is mostly AP bruiser itemization; RoA, liandries, rylais. All HP/offense items.
That is called battlemage mate. That is called battle mage. Although brand is a burst mage, he does build a lot of hp because his range is kinda low.
Listen... i get its hard to parse the difference between a bruiser and a tank when theyre so similar due to most "tank" core itemization being extremely general, but there IS a difference between them
Indeed. Here's the definition of tank "Tanks are tough melee champions who sacrifice damage in exchange for powerful crowd control. While able to engage enemies in combat, a tank's purpose isn't usually to kill opponents; rather, tanks excel at disrupting enemies and diverting focus to themselves, allowing them to lock down specific targets (or several targets at once), as well as remove (or peel) threats from their allies."
Here's the definition of fighter " Fighters (also known as Bruisers) are a diverse group of short-ranged combatants who excel at both dealing and surviving damage. With easy access to heavy, continuous damage (or DPS) and a host of innate defenses, fighters thrive in extended fights as they seek out enemies to take down, but their limited range puts them at constant risk of being kept at bay (or kited) by their opponents via crowd control, range and mobility."
Tldr, tanks durable and a lot of cc, fighters durable and a lot of damage.
Tanks are low damage for the most part, as they should be; to that effect modern tanks like poppy and orrn need their champion damage toned down in exchange for minion damage.
Difficult to do so. If a tank has way too low damage, he wont be able to lane. Because cc is not enough of a threat, and taunts arent as common as they should be, riot has made their threat through a lot of cc and generally low amounts of damage. But because in order for someone to be able to lane they included some circumstances where they will deal a good amount of damage (sion's w for example). Damage dictates (mostly) whether a champ can lane or not. If tanks had low damage against champs, they wouldnt be able to lane against anything (except other tanks). And at teamfights they would be ignored.
Paroe1 votesExactly what i said. When i said reach them i implied enough to kill them too.
No. Tank is a durable champ that has plethora of cc. I can build tank as ashe, but i lack their cc.
Riot generally is reluctant on making specific items for each class and making be able to buy only those items. But whatever.
Stickiness is something that assassins have too. He has also an escape like every other assassin.
That is called battlemage mate. That is called battle mage. Although brand is a burst mage, he does build a lot of hp because his range is kinda low.
Indeed. Here's the definition of tank "Tanks are tough melee champions who sacrifice damage in exchange for powerful crowd control. While able to engage enemies in combat, a tank's purpose isn't usually to kill opponents; rather, tanks excel at disrupting enemies and diverting focus to themselves, allowing them to lock down specific targets (or several targets at once), as well as remove (or peel) threats from their allies."
Here's the definition of fighter " Fighters (also known as Bruisers) are a diverse group of short-ranged combatants who excel at both dealing and surviving damage. With easy access to heavy, continuous damage (or DPS) and a host of innate defenses, fighters thrive in extended fights as they seek out enemies to take down, but their limited range puts them at constant risk of being kept at bay (or kited) by their opponents via crowd control, range and mobility."
Tldr, tanks durable and a lot of cc, fighters durable and a lot of damage.
Difficult to do so. If a tank has way too low damage, he wont be able to lane. Because cc is not enough of a threat, and taunts arent as common as they should be, riot has made their threat through a lot of cc and generally low amounts of damage. But because in order for someone to be able to lane they included some circumstances where they will deal a good amount of damage (sion's w for example). Damage dictates (mostly) whether a champ can lane or not. If tanks had low damage against champs, they wouldnt be able to lane against anything (except other tanks). And at teamfights they would be ignored.
Oookay... Fighters =/= Bruisers. Saying a fighter is the same as a bruiser is like saying a rectangle is a square.
Fighter is the general term for AD or AP melee champions. Its broken down into more specific classes like bruiser and juggernaut. Assassins are mobile, not sticky. Their job is to go IN, burst, and get out. Ekko is a "skirmisher" type, the general "AP" assassin riot wants as evidenced by their AP assassin reworks. You CANNOT mindlessly quote the wiki when the wiki is wrong; Bruisers are defined by their high base damage, mobility, and CC. There isnt a SINGLE designated bruiser who lacks the three. Champions like Sion, Mundo, and volibear are more akin to juggernauts than they are bruisers.
And actually, to lane a champion simply needs competitive waveclear. Braum? If his Q could pass through minions, he could be a fantastic top laner. Leona? If her Q could proc her passive for a cascading AoE, should could be a fantastic top laner. (By cascading AoE i mean "If leona uses E to get her passive on enemies, she can use Q to proc her passive as an AoE that procs other passives which are also an AoE) Poppy losing her %HP damage on her Q against champions would mean she no longer autowins trades, and has to build for damage. Orrn doing base damage on his W instead of %HP damage against champions would mean he no longer autowins lanes against melee champions unless hes aggressive and goes for thay playstyle.
Were also going off topic.
Oookay... Fighters =/= Bruisers. Saying a fighter is the same as a bruiser is like saying a rectangle is a square.
??? Fighters and bruisers in lol's terminology is the same (currently). Back in the past they might have been different but not nowadays. And yeah rectangle and square arent the same. But thats because we have defined them as different. In lol its the same. Tanks are durable cc powerhouses. Fighters are durable damage powerhouses (i wont go in details in their subclasses).
bruiser and juggernaut.
Yeah no. Its diver and juggernaut. In your own terminology it might be bruiser and juggernaut. But in lol's (and ofc its own community since we have supposedly accepted it as such) its diver and juggernaut.
Assassins are mobile, not sticky
Chances are that when something is mobile is also sticky. Sure not every mobile assassin is sticky too. But a good chunk of them are. Katarina, akali, ekko, fizz, kassadin, khazix and talon (though he needs walls).
Their job is to go IN, burst, and get out.
Which ekko can do.
You CANNOT mindlessly quote the wiki when the wiki is wrong; Bruisers are defined by their high base damage, mobility, and CC
Who told you that? Who told you that bruisers are defined by their high base damage mobility and cc? Im starting to think that you have confused skirmishers with bruisers, which even then its stupid since skirmishers are godlike duelists and being able to lose (usually) to other duelists in 1v1. So here the problem with your quote of " Bruisers are defined by their high base damage, mobility, and CC" because you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
You cant define someone by their high base damage. You simply cant. Mobile champs are usually either slayers or divers. There are also some other mobile champs that are adc (kalista, lucian, vayne, graves and maybe kindred) and ofc the only mage azir. Heavy cc champs are either tanks (both vanguards and wardens) or mages (battle mages usually have the most cc of the mage class).
There isnt a SINGLE designated bruiser who lacks the three. Champions like Sion, Mundo, and volibear are more akin to juggernauts than they are bruisers.
Do you really compare sion's damage to mundo's? Inversely, do you really compare their cc with sion's? Are you oke there buddy? Do you need a glass of water or sth? And no both voli and mundo are juggernauts. And yet again bruisers (when we are talking about lol) means fighters. Both of them are fighters. Specifically juggernauts. Got it? Good. Dont ever again mention fighters=/= bruisers.
And actually, to lane a champion simply needs competitive waveclear.
sigh I said the single most important thing was damage. Of course there are other needs in order for someone to lane.
Braum? If his Q could pass through minions, he could be a fantastic top laner.
On the flipside if his q was able to go through minions, he might had lower damage to both his q and his proc on passive. Hell he could had a whole different interaction with his q and passive. And no he wouldnt be a fantastic toplaner. Both his w,e and passive are far more valuable to a duo lane, aka bot (or mid considering the latest strat).
Leona? If her Q could proc her passive for a cascading AoE, should could be a fantastic top laner. (By cascading AoE i mean "If leona uses E to get her passive on enemies, she can use Q to proc her passive as an AoE that procs other passives which are also an AoE)
That sounds extremely op. And vague considering you dont mention the other "passive which are also an aoe". This would totally change her whole kit. And she doesnt need a rework.
Poppy losing her %HP damage on her Q against champions would mean she no longer autowins trades, and has to build for damage.
No. Poppy losing her %hp damage would mean that the enemy is free to always force a trade. And because poppy will lack any sort of damage she wont be able to fight back, and eventually she will be forced to go b. Lose exp, gold and considering turret's durability, the turret. And she doesnt autowin trades. In order for her to win a trade (provided the enemy plays it good) she will have to pick up her shield, stun the enemy, hit her ulti and hit both instances of damage in her q. Also considering she also faces beefy targets, the %hp damage helps more against them, and less against squishy targets.
Orrn doing base damage on his W instead of %HP damage against champions would mean he no longer autowins lanes against melee champions unless hes aggressive and goes for thay playstyle.
In order for ornn to win a trade (provided, again, the enemy plays it correctly) he will have to land q, land e, use w and land the full ability, proc his passive, use his ulti and hit at least the knock up part.
Were also going off topic.
As long as we are getting a warning i suppose we are oke.
