Certain mages have singed syndrome where they REQUIRE options like liandries and dft to do enough damage to be viable and dont rely on spell spamming like battle mages. This being the case, why dont they have a keystone option? Even something as simple as making press the attack proc on spell damage ticks would give them a viable keystone that doesnt feel like a chore to pop.
Enraged Piglet3 votesya cause there's absolutely no way Riot can find another way to balance some champions outside of runes. Right?
Velzard of Koz3 votesBecause in Riot's mind only source of sustained damage is basic attacks, that's why they'd devote entire tree for it, burst is done mostly just by Assasins with stealth or mobility, which is why they devouted entire tree for it and Mages have Sorcery which empowers spell-casting as If literally every class didn't use that with Sorcery hardly having specification that would make it class exclusive like Precision with aas, Domination with mobility etc.
If you're DPS Mage just move to another champion class, one that is spoiled with runes, 10/10 strategy.
It Hertz When IP2 votesThey already stated that the few DoT mages that relied on DFT would be looked at for possible damage buffs to compensate for not having access to that keystone anymore. Now, those mages can pick up other, more interesting choices than just "more damage", because they'll already be getting that damage.
Paroe13 votes[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EFM9tG8b,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-04T23:10:21.704+0000)
They already stated that the few DoT mages that relied on DFT would be looked at for possible damage buffs to compensate for not having access to that keystone anymore. Now, those mages can pick up other, more interesting choices than just "more damage", because they'll already be getting that damage.
That doesnt really excuse that theres no support in the new runes for DoT mages though.
Tenth Leper7 votesI agree since electrocute is simply "more damage" for burst Champs and press the attack is only VERY SLIGHTLY more interesting than "more damage" for auto attacking champions.
I admit glacial augment, predator, and dark harvest have some interesting game play to them but they are all more suitable for auto attackers than for people like Karthus and Singed (or Fid even) who have to warp their gameplay to weave in autos.
I dislike comet even for its intended users because if you are on someone like Morgana or lux and are just poking a champion down you would be using your non cc skills (morg w/lux e) and saving your cc (q in these cases) in case of a gank by either side. So your poke procs the comet, which misses, and then when you do decide to root and kill them your comet does not proc because it is on cooldown. And if by some strange circumstance comet is not on cd and therefore procs during your all in so they are cc'd and actually somehow hit, it STILL does less damage than the electrocute that cannot miss. [slayer-jinx-unamused]
Mawootad1 votesElectrocute's cooldown is also 2.5x longer. Conner is by far the most boring keystone, but it's actually fairly decent.
kitcat3002 votesPress the attack give AP now, does that suffice.
Attacking the same champion grants a stack of AD or AP, Adaptive (3 - 9 per stack). While you have at least 3 stacks, your target takes 8% (12% if you are melee) increased damage from all sources. Can stack infinitely. Attacking a new target causes you to lose 2 stacks. Stacks begin rapidly falling off 3 seconds after last gaining a stack.
ThePikol2 votesBut this require auto attacking to proc?
kitcat3001 votesI have no idea, its very vague and i dont have a PBE anymore to test it myself.
Paroe2 votesPress the attack give AP now, does that suffice.
I bring you to the bit where i say something about press the attack;
Even something as simple as making press the attack proc on spell damage ticks would give them a viable keystone that doesnt feel like a chore to pop.
3 unique sources of damage (basic attacks, spell casts, active items, etc) is a chore to pop on DoT mages because their tempo is much slower; Singed and malzahar are more likely to press Q (singed) and EQ (malzahar). For them, the "hit three unique sources of damage" passives are simply a chore to proc. Thats why they need liandries and DFT - their damage is otherwise sub-par and they NEED those options just to hurt enough to be useful unless theyre building ~700AP instead of tank (in singed' cased) or utility/CDR (malzahar)
BobaFlautist3 votesI mean basically riot has said they intend to make their damage not sub-par without it. I don't know about you, hut I'd rather have decent damage as a baseline and get to choose a keystone instead of having trash damage as a baseline and being forced into the "perfect" keystone for me.
Dft also artificially limited dot champ's damage to minions, because it didn't proc on them but it did limit the damage in their kit. Expect better dot waveclear in the future.
DeathBurst1 votesBecause most DoT champs can still use other Keystones (Phase Rush for instance looks pretty good on most of them). If nothing actually works, either they'll be buffed individually (if there is only a small number of problem champs), or Riot will prioritize work to find them a new Keystone (if there are many).
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesYeh phase rush is gonna work on singed, it also looks boring as shit.
BobaFlautist1 votesSinged has a TON of good options in the new runes, and they're all a lot less boring than "your q does more damage"
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesi'll admit sorcery looks quite good for ap bruiser singed, the ult hat gives alot more power windows. Still i really like DoT so DFT was perfect. Idk what i'll take for teemo yet, if the Fervor of battle one is adaptive that might be great though, i'd like to know it's interaction with Runaans first though.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesRiot has actually made several comments about this on several different threads; I don't have those linked, so I'll share what I remember if you do me a solid and don't take my word as 100% correct :)
But, what Riot has said was already touched on by "It Hertz When IP." DFT was bad, and they don't want to revisit that. They have considered adding some AP options to the "Precision" tree, but it's a little sticky how exactly those would pan out. There weren't many details given.
Back to my take here: It's difficult, particularly because DoT doesn't have a lot of interactivity. If Swain hits you with an E, DFT is super non-interactive. Keystones aren't just about power, it's also about fun factor, and DFT wasn't fun. We're not getting that back.
If you want a keystone that makes DoT fun, the best way to make that happen is to suggest ideas that sound fun. The reason there isn't one is Riot hasn't come up with anything that sounds healthy and fun. If you have suggestions, I'll all ears, and I think Riot is, too. Like I said, the "press the attack" proc has been considered, but again it's pretty non-interactive for many of these champs (like Singed or Swain). It's hardly a great option if we're fun-searching and not just power-searching.
Paroe1 votesRiot has actually made several comments about this on several different threads; I don't have those linked, so I'll share what I remember if you do me a solid and don't take my word as 100% correct :)
But, what Riot has said was already touched on by "It Hertz When IP." DFT was bad, and they don't want to revisit that. They have considered adding some AP options to the "Precision" tree, but it's a little sticky how exactly those would pan out. There weren't many details given.
Back to my take here: It's difficult, particularly because DoT doesn't have a lot of interactivity. If Swain hits you with an E, DFT is super non-interactive. Keystones aren't just about power, it's also about fun factor, and DFT wasn't fun. We're not getting that back.
If you want a keystone that makes DoT fun, the best way to make that happen is to suggest ideas that sound fun. The reason there isn't one is Riot hasn't come up with anything that sounds healthy and fun. If you have suggestions, I'll all ears, and I think Riot is, too. Like I said, the "press the attack" proc has been considered, but again it's pretty non-interactive for many of these champs (like Singed or Swain). It's hardly a great option if we're fun-searching and not just power-searching.
"Applying continuous spell damage grants stacks of (blank). At 100 stacks the next ability will slow by 20% for 1 second and deal an additional 20% of continuous spell damage as true damage for the next 3 seconds." (Continuous spell damage refers to spell damage with less than 1.5 seconds between ticks)
This kind of thing gives DoT mages something they can use which is good, but is also interactive and can be used by literally any mage. It promotes not only harassing and general aggressive play, but also rewards it as much as precision does. It would be particularly effective on DoT mages and battle mages, but it could also compete with electrocute on burst mages if their damage gets high enough but would not crowd out other options (are there other options even? Its just electrocute right?) because it isnt up front early damage.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesDecent suggestion. I like that one quite a lot. You think something like that belongs in the Sorcery tree?
Paroe1 votesDecent suggestion. I like that one quite a lot. You think something like that belongs in the Sorcery tree?
For sure. It would replace the comet as a keystone and it would work well in the blue tree because of its synergy with CDR and burst damage.
ModKnightsKemplar1 votesSo, while we're on the subject of DoT, do you think there's any value in trying to salvage scorch? Especially with a keystone like this, scorch will be pretty underwhelming (it already is, imo). Maybe it could recycled into something unrelated to DoT just as well, but I'm curious if you have any ideas for a "lesser rune" that synergizes better with DoT?
Paroe1 votesSo, while we're on the subject of DoT, do you think there's any value in trying to salvage scorch? Especially with a keystone like this, scorch will be pretty underwhelming (it already is, imo). Maybe it could recycled into something unrelated to DoT just as well, but I'm curious if you have any ideas for a "lesser rune" that synergizes better with DoT?
Scorch could be reworked into a % or flat magic penetration using the afore mentioned "continuous spell damage" thing. 15% (3% per second) or 30 (6 flat per second). As it is now, even as a concept, scorch simply isnt salvagable. Its aery levels of terrible. In order to make it viable it needs either a real base damage or it needs good scaling.
Dengeden1 votesThey really don't need the DFT though and Keystones are supposed to be a chore to pop. That's almost the point, they give you an early-mid game asset and the hoops you have to jump through are the price.
Just run Stormraider's or whatever it's called now. It's much more interesting.
Paroe2 votesThey really don't need the DFT though and Keystones are supposed to be a chore to pop. That's almost the point, they give you an early-mid game asset and the hoops you have to jump through are the price.
Just run Stormraider's or whatever it's called now. It's much more interesting.
Why? Marksmen get the most powerful, easiest to use keystones. All forms of marksmen and assassin are supported. Why are low tempo mages - DoT mages and such - the only mages who arent allowed to be supported? Sure DFT was a problem, but it was the best support for DoT mages because of how much added damage it gave.
Theres no variety for mages, no meaningful decisions. No proper support. A mage will usually go red/blue because its the best option they have.
Dengeden2 votesReally. What proves that Warlord's, the only keystone of the two that can be argued to be called easy to use, is the best keystone?
There's no variety for ADCs, no meaningful decisions. No proper support. An ADC will usually go blablbla- oh wait.
I mean seriously, you're gonna call DFT a "meaningful decision"? Are you serious?
Paroe1 votesReally. What proves that Warlord's, the only keystone of the two that can be argued to be called easy to use, is the best keystone?
There's no variety for ADCs, no meaningful decisions. No proper support. An ADC will usually go blablbla- oh wait.
I mean seriously, you're gonna call DFT a "meaningful decision"? Are you serious?
Press the attack: Right click (Do what an ADC does best!) for % damage increase and infinite AD Lethal tempo: Right click Fleet footwork: Energized.... then right click.
DFT WAS a meaningful decision for the champions who used it as intended. But thats not the point here; its a crutch for champions like singed and malzahar who suffer from singed syndrome. We need an analogue to it for champions like them, analogues which have been suggested in this very thread.
Dengeden1 votesGreat argument, every champion rightclicks and moves about, (only ADCs are usually punished more easily for doing so).
Malz is a top tier midlaner right now and Singed is a top tier toplaner, Malz doesn't need his "right click to apply more damage" to remain relevant any more than Singed needs his "my Rylai's lasts longer".
Paroe1 votesGreat argument, every champion rightclicks and moves about, (only ADCs are usually punished more easily for doing so).
Malz is a top tier midlaner right now and Singed is a top tier toplaner, Malz doesn't need his "right click to apply more damage" to remain relevant any more than Singed needs his "my Rylai's lasts longer".
Traditional marksmen: I right click better.
Malzahar: I can take DFT, thunderlords, or not bother with a keystone because thunderlords is a chore to pop and i kind of want CDR over penetration. Okay let me E the wave and bait my enemy into my EQW... Okay let me EW for a thunderlords proc. Okay let me EQ basic for that sweet thunderlords proc. Okay i want to do more passive damage this game let me get DFT so my damage is still relevant with only ~450AP.
Singed: I can take DFT or CoC. My playstyle is the same but DFT lets me do relevant damage and CoC lets me survive better.
Just because you dont think a champion has decisions doesnt mean they dont - fact is marksmen only need one skill; positioning. Its a HUGE dps loss for marksmen to use their abilities past a certain point in combat.
Dengeden1 votesPoint me to one world's clip where the adcs don't use their abilities. Should be easy enough if you're right, which you're not. Choosing to rightclick without using abilities is in and of itself a decision.
Khristophoros1 votesSummon Aery might actually be good for DoT mages but it depends on what the effective cooldown is. If it can trigger twice from a 4 second DoT then it would outclass DFT for single target usage. Of course also consider that it will trigger off your autoattacks between your cooldowns. I know it looks to be designed for champions who can target allies with abilities but it might not even be required to be a good keystone considering how low the cooldown looks in the preview video.
Paroe1 votesSummon Aery might actually be good for DoT mages but it depends on what the effective cooldown is. If it can trigger twice from a 4 second DoT then it would outclass DFT for single target usage. Of course also consider that it will trigger off your autoattacks between your cooldowns. I know it looks to be designed for champions who can target allies with abilities but it might not even be required to be a good keystone considering how low the cooldown looks in the preview video.
Aery takes longer to return to you the further away you are from him and his damage is laughable. If he interacted with DoTs by dealing continuous damage though.... that would be neat.
Khristophoros1 votesAery takes longer to return to you the further away you are from him and his damage is laughable. If he interacted with DoTs by dealing continuous damage though.... that would be neat.
I understand that, so what I mean is that the effective cooldown at ~600 range is important.
And it would be stupid if it stayed on them and worked better with DoTs. That is DFT all over again. The reason they are removing it is because it's too perfect for DoT mages to the point that you have no choice in what keystone you take.
Paroe1 votesI understand that, so what I mean is that the effective cooldown at ~600 range is important.
And it would be stupid if it stayed on them and worked better with DoTs. That is DFT all over again. The reason they are removing it is because it's too perfect for DoT mages to the point that you have no choice in what keystone you take.
DoT mages are low-tempo champions who dont benefit from 3 unique sources of damage keystones is the thing. As it is, "DoT" is going to become a secondary with them either returning to Auxiliary supports or full on tanks. Im already considering going predator on malzahar and grabbing wards runes, then getting CDR and gathering storm.
Khristophoros1 votesDoT mages are low-tempo champions who dont benefit from 3 unique sources of damage keystones is the thing. As it is, "DoT" is going to become a secondary with them either returning to Auxiliary supports or full on tanks. Im already considering going predator on malzahar and grabbing wards runes, then getting CDR and gathering storm.
That's the great thing about losing the "perfect keystone". Now you're thinking about picking up Predator which is the most ballin' ass rune ever. If DFT was still in the game you would use it even though it's a boring passive damage increase which does not transform your gameplay or your strategy.
I don't see how you consider that being an auxiliary support, you're taking something that gives you better engage so you can get kills more easily. Like yeah you lose some DoT but your all-in is stronger because Predator adds a little burst of damage and lets you find more opportunities to actually do your all-in. So you are not prevented from finding 1v1 kill opportunities at all.
But if you want more sustained pressure you could look at Dark Harvest, Summon Aery, or Glacial Augment.
Regarding Summon Aery, you're not considering the fact that basic attacks apply it, so your overall harass is better.
With Glacial Augment you can more easily land Q and have your voidlings get more hits to get better trades.
The good thing about being forced to take other keystones is that you have to think about how you'll use it rather than just "ok I'm taking some damage that I don't have to think about."
Paroe1 votesThat's the great thing about losing the "perfect keystone". Now you're thinking about picking up Predator which is the most ballin' ass rune ever. If DFT was still in the game you would use it even though it's a boring passive damage increase which does not transform your gameplay or your strategy.
I don't see how you consider that being an auxiliary support, you're taking something that gives you better engage so you can get kills more easily. Like yeah you lose some DoT but your all-in is stronger because Predator adds a little burst of damage and lets you find more opportunities to actually do your all-in. So you are not prevented from finding 1v1 kill opportunities at all.
But if you want more sustained pressure you could look at Dark Harvest, Summon Aery, or Glacial Augment.
Regarding Summon Aery, you're not considering the fact that basic attacks apply it, so your overall harass is better.
With Glacial Augment you can more easily land Q and have your voidlings get more hits to get better trades.
The good thing about being forced to take other keystones is that you have to think about how you'll use it rather than just "ok I'm taking some damage that I don't have to think about."
Dark harvest doesnt work well if you have no mobility. Basic attacking is very risky unless your enemy is also immobile. Glacial augment isnt worth taking (none of the grey tree keystones are, honestly...) as a keystone because its tree is bad for non-supports. Aery does WAY to little damage to be worthwhile. Unless you also have a shield for its actually useful shield buff, its not worth taking at all.
Further, Auxiliary supports are champions whose main goal is to be a offensive support with a higher gold income; Youre basically a "damage-oriented support" whose job is to "lock down priority targets and spread damage so your ADC can kill things easier". The reason im thinking of picking up predator is because A) Its red. Grab predator. Zombie ward. Poro. I am a support, my job is to shove lane, ward and deward the river, and then roam bot lane to help my ADC snowball. B) I have no other good keystone in ANY tree. As most DoT mages (Keyword there; DoT mage. Not a battle mage. Battle mages spam their abilities are are high-tempo) find it difficult to proc three hit passives because youre, generally, going to use two abilities and back out unless your opponent doesnt respect you.
