So PBE zed ult nerf was reverted.

Paroe·May 25, 2016·158 votes·7,571 views

It is now official; zed has been 100% buffed by the PBE changes to shuriken.

-35 base damage at rank five, 75% damage for second shuriken instead of 50%.

227 Comments

buniesMay 25, 201677 votes

well zed is perma banned so who cares ?

ParoeMay 25, 201663 votes

{quoted}

well zed is perma banned so who cares ?

All those zed mains who claim hes balanced :p

Very Hard EngageMay 25, 201634 votes

if zed were balanced he would have to make meaningful decisions other than squishy.... alone....? hot dog imma press R and spam in their general direction.

zed mains, stop saying W is a decision, its not, you either have it or you dont, its always used as harass/ get in, or used as an escape.

Handin Out NapsMay 25, 20169 votes

I see you still sound as biased and low elo as ever.

ArakadiaMay 25, 201659 votes

Says the guy who is totally not a biased zed main.

@"Ur**Zed**M8"

Handin Out NapsMay 25, 201612 votes

Eh me maining Zed doesn't make me biased, just means I have a little more knowledge on the subject than most. I can admit that Zed was broken in the past few patches, but currently he is just eh, the only thing that is kind of dumb atm is how qss no longer works on his ult, but I think the changes on the pbe will allow good players to play against Zed better. These days I just read Zed qq threads for the comedic value. That is always a funny argument though, maining a champion automatically makes all of your comments biased and untrue. I guess that's just the logic on the boards though.

Scary DoorMay 25, 201613 votes

{quoted}

Eh me maining Zed doesn't make me biased, just means I have a little more knowledge on the subject than most. I can admit that Zed was broken in the past few patches, but currently he is just eh, the only thing that is kind of dumb atm is how qss no longer works on his ult, but I think the changes on the pbe will allow good players to play against Zed better. These days I just read Zed qq threads for the comedic value. That is always a funny argument though, maining a champion automatically makes all of your comments biased and untrue. I guess that's just the logic on the boards though.

I'm an AD champion, what's the counterplay to a Zed ult... because it used to be QSS/MS, but now ... ?

Most assassins have some type of counter. Kat, for instance, hard CC the ult, she's worthless,

Saw a Zed out-trade a 330 Armor Irelia the other day, they were the same level, had roughly the same farm/gold... but can't really counter that ult. Sure, as a mage there is still Zhonyas, albeit on a very long cooldown now comparatively, but what's the counter as an AD champ to Zed?

Kuroi86May 25, 20165 votes

330 Armor Irelia

Just to be blunt, that sounds like a terrible build. o.0

You really will never need more than 250 armor. And for Irelia if she doesn't have item 3078 item 3153 then something is really wrong.

LankPantsMay 25, 20163 votes

BotRK is situational at best on Irelia. I'd personally say it's bad most of the time.

It's generally best to just go Tri>Sterak's>tank and ignore other offensive items, except Maw if they're AP heavy, Maw is still broken.

If I was against a 4 AD team as Irelia I'd build something like item 3078 item 3053 item 3047 item 3143 item 3742 item 3110 , this is a pretty good build in that situation and it probably is at least 330 armour.

Kuroi86May 25, 20161 votes

Hm, 230 from items, 89 base, so really just needing 11 from runes/masteries. Still, I can't help but feel you'd be better off with some form of lifesteal.

Also past 250 armor, the only build I can think of for Zed to really out class Irelia, would have to be his carry build. That's a lot less common after his AS nerf.

LankPantsMay 25, 20168 votes

Buying lifesteal on Irelia is kinda pointless, you heal a lot from abilities anyway and lifesteal works off of your AD and AS, while you probably get some decent AS your AD is not as good so you just don't benefit much from it. If you want more healling then SV is the best item available, it's just better to multiply what you already have than to try to add more flat numbers.

You also need to remember that resists are disproportionately strong on healers. Every 100 armour gives you an extra 26 effective HP every time you AA. You generally want more armour and less HP to become tanky on Irelia, although when you get 4K HP as a by-product of building armour it certainly doesn't hurt.

You generally don't need a 3rd damage item on Irelia, the only time it would be useful is against a mid power duellist like Renekton where you just need a tiny bit more damage than normal to deal with him and you actually can realistically duel him unlike someone like Jax. In these cases your best option is Maw if they have magic damage or Youmuu's if they don't. Youmuu's just gives you a lot more than a BotRK.

And yes, an Irelia with the build I suggested or anything even remotely close should beat a Zed unless he's building something like item 3153 item 3036 specifically to try an duel you. Even if he did that the fight would probably still be in Irelia's favour.

Kuroi86May 25, 20161 votes

Hm, 130-260, yeah I'd say you'd need something heavy to out heal her Hiten Style active. In that case I'd probably consider something like item 3124 as a possible alternative to item 3742 . A great deal of synergy with her Hiten Style, lots of dueling power and with her stun it would be easy to stack, at which point Zed would be forced to disengage or get shredded most likely.

LankPantsMay 25, 20162 votes

You never build Rageblade on Irelia, it just doesn't work. If you do the maths you find that BotRK gives you slightly more DPS than a fully stacked Rageblade. Rageblade is a trap item on almost everyone, it's good on Kog and Kayle and OK on Jax, past that though you should never buy it on anyone.

Against 4 AD teams, which is the scenario I suggested that build for it is optimal to just stack armour. Sure you could build a Youmuu's and be a better duelist, but do you need to? Can the Zed realistically outduel the 5 item 250 armour Irelia? If the answer is no then the best thing you can do is try to be tankier for fights.

Troll for TrumpMay 25, 20161 votes

If you want armor, Thornmails would be better for dueling purposes; lifesteal really really helps.

LankPantsMay 25, 20165 votes

Lifesteal's multiplicative, unless you already have a high AA only DPS it's not really worth it. Its other use, sustaining off of waves is pretty redundant on Irelia as well.

Thornmail isn't that good right now. I'd generally prefer FH. Stat wise it's a far better item and it's aura is incredibly powerful for both dueling and fighting. I also think you need the extra 1K or so extra HP to go with Sterak's to make it's passive a bit stronger. I'd be reluctant to replace either of them because of that.

Troll for TrumpMay 25, 20161 votes

The lifesteal is nice, but it's the %hp and attack speed that helps, especially vs tanks. The active can help too.

I just never felt that Frozen Heart had much of an impact on characters I built, except pre-rework Tar and Ryze.

LankPantsMay 25, 20164 votes

I just never felt that Frozen Heart had much of an impact on characters I built, except pre-rework Tar and Ryze.

You don't feel it, but it does. The FH passive is a pretty huge reduction in ADC DPS.

LankPantsMay 25, 201638 votes

Eh me maining Zed doesn't make me biased

Maining any champion makes you biased about them.

Handin Out NapsMay 25, 20167 votes

It really doesn't unless you choose to be biased. I knew Zed was op before his nerfs, I wanted him to be nerfed. I didn't agree with the Qss changes because I thought it would make Zed become ridiculous once again. But now after seeing his win rate not change by much, I can honestly say he isn't that ridiculous anymore, people will get used to it after awhile, and Zed's ban rate will drop again, happens every season.

LankPantsMay 25, 201624 votes

I can honestly say he isn't that ridiculous anymore, people will get used to it after awhile, and Zed's ban rate will drop again, happens every season.

It's not going to drop unless Riot actually does something. In fact Zed's ban rate is still climbing patch after patch.

People don't want to have to deal with Zed. He's just a cancer upon the game. He removes any fun that his enemies may have had while playing the game. If you start playing against him more often and not as him as much you'd start to get an appreciation for this. He's just hellish to have to play against, so most people chose not to.

Zed is one of those champions who if he was gutted out of viability would make the game better as a whole. This would also be consistent with Riot's balancing philosophy, they like to give champs who are too strong some "time out of the spotlight" after all.

Handin Out NapsMay 25, 20163 votes

Actually I could feel Zed's ban rate dropping after the w nerfs, as I was able to get more games on him, just the qss nerfs brought back people's fear of Zed. Also I have played against zed a fair amount, usually in normal games with friends, whenever I lose to him as someone like Azir/Viktor, which is honestly very rare I look at the mistakes I made in lane. Did I abuse his cooldowns enough, Did I dodge his poke, Did I outplay his ultimate? Etc. I have had a lot of time playing against Zed which is why I firmly stand by my belief that low elo players just really need to learn how to lane, instead of complaining about the <50% win rate Zed. Anyway you can quote me now, Zeds ban rate will begin to slowly fall, that's just how it goes every season.

LankPantsMay 25, 201632 votes

I firmly stand by my belief that low elo players just really need to learn how to lane

Yes, this is a low Elo problem, that's why Zed's banrate is 78.4% in Bronze and 85% in Diamond. Clearly the high Elo players just have it worked out better, don't they?

ZackeryssMay 25, 201619 votes

{quoted}

Clearly the high Elo players just have it worked out better, don't they?

Quite clearly. They never let him in the game. That's quite smart imo. Why riot will not nerf him is beyond me other than the fact that they love people with dashes.

Faceroll TacticsMay 25, 20167 votes

Because Riot severely favors certain champions, Zed Yasuo Fizz Ekko Graves Ezreal Will take HALF A YEAR to be put in a balanced state yet champions like Rengar Gangplank MasterYi Nidalee will receive nerf after nerf at the sight of being in a good spot

Whut Thuh May 25, 201610 votes

Yes because Rengar was in a "good spot" before his nerfs..... he was broken as balls and with the duskblade he is back to his playable state that is good in good hands. Riot has also tried to give him quality of life buffs like his bola strike change that makes it so you wont randomly cast it in some unknown direction when jumping with full ferocity

You know just as much as i do that yi was cancerously unhealthy and broken before they nerfed him added bloodrazer then compensation buffed him.

Gp was and is one of the best toplaners in high elo. his gloabl kp and high damage with crit items from the marksman opdate make him extremely high teir and riot snapped him like they did reksai and gragas because they became too prevelant and powerful in the lcs.

Nidalee so far has been buffed and nerfed throught the preseason and s6 with buffs to her jungle clearing then nerfs to her first clear then buffs to her lane damage and nerfs to her heal. i think she is good when used well but requires a skilled hand. i like it

graves has seen nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs since marksman update. i wouild say he is balanced rn

ezreal? what? he was op for 2 patches when frozen gauntlet was op. blue ezreal wasnt as oppresive or as awfully counterless as say.. early s6 kogmaw

Yasou. meh i can see where you're coming from there

Same with fizz

Ekko became just the last stage of the Sunfire FG meta and was op and yes riot held much to long to their vision of a "utility assasin" and ignored the viability of his tank counterpart. (side note: the SunFire FG meta was insinuated by the huge buff given to bami's cinder the patch after new shen was released. it was supposed to make shen better but ended up making others op)

finaly we get to Zed. Yes you are correct. riot favors this champion. RIot also has held to the imaginative fantasy that flashy assasins should always be meta due to the fact that people like playing them and that this provides a valid reason to keep then in the overpowered state because it keeps people playing the game and earns them money.

Faceroll TacticsMay 25, 20163 votes

My post might not have delivered on what I was trying to say, my point is that Riot will NOT for one second hesitate to remove parts of Rengar Gangplank MasterYi Nidalee kit because they are overbearing. Rengar got a delay on his mid air bola toss. was capped at 3 barrels. Nidalee lost her root on jungle monsters.

However, champions like Ekko will never have their kit changed because riot loves them, what is overbearing on Ekko is his immense utility that he can be a tank and still have enough damage to eliminate squishies. What would fix this? removing the passive on his W and removing the damage on his passive, which they did to other champions in the past, but they won't do to Ekko . The most they will do to him is tweak numbers, usually following a compensation buff

YvaelleMay 25, 20165 votes

That's why Evelynn is the best champion Everrrr!

cries in the corner until Evelynn buffs

AlleoMay 25, 20168 votes

Who's Evelynn? I never see her.

Whut Thuh May 25, 20165 votes

cant tell if this is a joke about her invisibilty or a joke about her playrate

AlleoMay 26, 20163 votes

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/why-not-both-meme-gif/82733-why-not-both-meme-5LvD.jpeg

KetiMay 25, 20161 votes

He makes more meaningful decisions than like any assassin.

YvaelleMay 25, 201614 votes

Zed Decision Tree:

Are they alive? No: Brag to your team about how you are carrying them. Yes: Press R to fix that.

KetiMay 25, 20161 votes

And this doesnt define talon/rengar/akali/fizz/every assassin not named khazix? Zed's burst can easily be avoided without needing an item to negate his ult, you just have to git gud. I say this as someone who only plays mages mid zzzz

YvaelleMay 25, 201612 votes

Almost everyone you listed has one way into the enemy team - they have to at least fully commit to their attempts - and if they fail they have to walk home - exposed to enemy attacks. Zed can open on someone with W->R from the fog of war without any counterplay, kill them, then press W again to pretty much recall to base.

How can Zed's burst be "easily avoided" - it's point and click - you press R... That's it. Counterplay: Uh... go to the Zed's house and steal his R key? Counter-counterplay: live far enough away that the match is over before your midlaner has had time to go steal Zed's R key.

Not a single one of the assassins you listed can get in as quickly, from as far away, as Zed's W->R. Of the assassins you listed, only Rengar has a comparable Time To Kill to Zed's R application. Of the assassins you listed, none of them can escape like Zed (press W or R again).

KetiMay 25, 20162 votes

Zed being able to escape is all ins is why he's able to be healthy, back in the day assassins had to suck because they were so binary. They either sucked or rolled the whole game in unstoppable fashion.

Zed's burst is not point and click, his R does damage based off of landing autos and skillshots, and gives a huge telegraph allowing you or an ally to position appropriately or prepare crowd control. Compare to talon who instantly teleports to you and blows you up with instant front loaded burst. Akali who blinks to you 3 times and basically stat checks you to death... Zed's damage is very avoidable since it's so loaded into his shuriken, and its even easier if you have hard cc that can easily catch him when he ults you.

YvaelleMay 25, 201611 votes

First off, Zed is not healthy. It's why he's permabanned.

"Back in the day" is still today, for almost every other assassin. It's not an outdated mechanic, it's how almost everyone else in the archetype (assassin) works.

R_ is _point and click.

How do you 'position appropriately' during the half-second R cast, that you're calling a telegraph? CC works on everyone - that's not unique to Zed - that's not a balancing countermeasure - you can CC talon when he dives too. Talon's time to kill is longer than Zed's. His burst is front-loaded thanks to Q+E, but it's not enough to kill alone - Zed can buy Duskblade, press W->R->W, and then walk away laughing - because that person is already dead.

Akali gets wrecked in lane phase until 6 - up until then she's the shittiest laner in the game. Zed has the best assassin poke, ranged wave clear, no mana, and the fastest lane push. Zed can kill anyone in lane at level 2, Akali tries to just XP soak and not feed until 6. Can she burst with full R stacks post-6? Definitely - that's why she's an Assassin - but if she messes up she gets to walk home - Zed presses W or R to escape any retaliation.

"Zed's damage is very avoidable since it's so loaded into his shuriken" - Shurikens are like the easiest projectiles in the game to land - and they're almost impossible to dodge when you're point-blank on your target with W and/or R. It's not hard to land a projectile wider than a Morgana Q, that travels over twice as fast, when you throw three of them at once, from point-blank range, that penetrates all targets, has a short cooldown, and virtually no real cost (since energy is an infinite resource).

Look at it objectively, without your Zed bias. Is Zed 'the most broken thing ever'? Obviously not. Is he broken? Absolutely. That's why he's permabanned right now.

The entire league community isn't collectively banning Zed because we dislike his laugh. We're doing it because he's not healthy for the game. Assassins need a weakness - whether that's Akali's shitty lane phase, or Diana's 'no escape' commitment, or Rengar's fear of pink wards - you aren't supposed to be amazing at everything all the time: Zed is.

SnowFallMay 25, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Zed Decision Tree:

Are they alive? No: Brag to your team about how you are carrying them. Yes: Press R to fix that.

/laugh /laugh /laugh /laugh /laugh

DengedenMay 25, 20162 votes

That only works if the person who gets ulted doesn't understand how Zed works. I've dodged many a shuriken (back when he got through ban phase (and when I wasn't practicing the new Cass, shut up)) by walking forward instead of continuing to run away when he ulted me.

Very Hard EngageMay 25, 20163 votes

the same thing can be said about vel koz, run into vel koz and he simply cant turn fast enough with his laser anymore. (geometry OP)

the difference being zed is a melee champion and any caster who wants to get up close and personal and trade autos with him must be a genius.

but you'll still be hit by his spin and consequently slowed. and autoed to death.

DengedenMay 25, 20161 votes

Zed appears behind you remember? Ofc I'm not walking into him.

Crowe StalkerMay 25, 20162 votes

By definition, you are running into him, because running away implies you'll be running in any direction besides the shadow, which of course leaves you vulnerable to Shadow Slash.

MessaigaMay 25, 20161 votes

if zed were balanced he would have to make meaningful decisions other than squishy.... alone....? hot dog imma press R and spam in their general direction.

Other assassins do this exact same thing. Rengar, Diana, Talon, Akali, Katarina, Fizz, etc. I get that assassins are frustrating (and Zed is definitely too strong right now) but that description is literally the point of an assassin.

Very Hard EngageMay 25, 20164 votes

the difference being they do not have free escapes. they have to outplay (stealth khazix) or kill first for the jump reset. talons escape is tied in to his ult. fizz is tied in with half of his damage and or zhonyas CD, katarina needs a reset and a ward/team mate, diana has no escape, akali no escape, rengar no escape.

so when they go in, they're available to take a beating, zed not so much.

zed has 2 built in escapes. which can be justified, but in zeds current case, it just isn't, it makes him gross in relation to everyone else.

MessaigaMay 25, 20161 votes

I'm confused. The part I quoted stated that the squishy is alone. If that squishy is alone, then how are escapes relevant in that situation? If anything, it means his W is used to keep him within threat range of the champion he is attempting to kill.

Regardless, I don't believe that Zed's escape potential is the source of his current problems/frustrations. In my opinion, it's his ability to assassinate without necessitating his Q. Honestly, a Zed can kill somebody purely with his E and auto-attacks if Death Mark is available. The only times I find Zed needs to land his Q is before he has his core build, or if he needs to duel somebody tankier than himself.

Zed's bullying is also quite strong and them nerfing the base damage on it but making multiple Shurikens do more damage is a good design choice.

I believe the reduction of the damage Death Mark did on it's lonesome was also a step in the right direction (and it is nonsensical that they cut the nerf).

Very Hard EngageMay 25, 20163 votes

if you're concern is damage, zed has the least loaded all at once damage, but the highest potential between autos, bonus damage, and scaling (so much so that it is absurd, and using poke is quite damaging against enemies) zed rarely needs his full kit to kill someone, usually his ultimate ability is routinely used to gap close onto the squishy, not as a direct or necessary source of damage

((what champion doesn't need their ultimate ability to pick someone off?)) (((but he is still technically using it to gap close, so sure, fine he does have to use his ultimate, but just think of how much damage zed has)))

the question always remains what is ok for zed to have and what isn't. what zed has is poke, ez handed to him farming, wave clear, escapes, gap closers, (mobility) in lane bulk, huge build path variety and counterbuild access while maintaining kill potential, (sustain pending build path) and of course damage.

so whats zed lacking in? team fighting, damage variety (hes all ad), utility (just a slow). now you tell me is this justified?

MessaigaMay 26, 20162 votes

I think a lot of what Zed does is justifiable for his champion. His mobility, dueling, and laning seem proper to me. The way he does it isn't quite as fair though. Having a single Q do less damage, but landing more than one Q do heavy damage, should be the reward for Zed and ties his harass into a long early CD (his W). This currently is not the case.

Additionally, he does extremely heavy damage without landing a single Shuriken because his death mark's damage increases from auto-attacks and spells. If it increased only from spells, but by a greater amount, then his damage would be proper. By adding the requirement of landing a skillshot to do high burst damage, Zed's counter-play becomes more clear rather than the previous "lol build QSS against an ad champion".

Basically, I think he'd be more fair if he relied on his W more to bully (which they are doing) and if he relied on his Q for burst. Otherwise, I have no gripes with him. Perhaps he is a bit too safe early, but fixing his damage against minions won't change his gameplay patterns much.

Very Hard EngageMay 26, 20162 votes

sure it would, it would force him to use abilities on minions like every other champion when farming under tower. he would have to choose poke or farm like everyone else.

zed has the easiest time under tower as he is the only champion who can let a tower hit a caster minion once, auto once, and get the cs.

ZeeWolfZMay 25, 201637 votes

Let's make it 99.99% ZED BAN!

RottedApplesMay 25, 201632 votes

lets break kassadin levels.

Crowe StalkerMay 25, 201624 votes

Sure, Zed goes to the PBE and Riot thinks he's 'Balanced' and proceed to buff him. Azir goes to the PBE and he's torn to shreds and the community has to beg just to give him some lee-way.