Zac and maokai are victims of riots "change for the sake of change" policy.

Paroe·May 5, 2017·30 votes·2,155 views

Singular reworks dont have an impact as much as "MID SEASON CLASS UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" does, especially when it comes to excuses for nerfs and buffs. Sejauni is the favored child of whatever rioter did her rework - the only successful rework of this patch. Maokai was clearly the middle child and couldnt care less. His damage got swapped around and he now falls off EXTREMELY hard. His new ult could have been added on to his old kit, and his new passive is absurd in many situations. Zac is the red headed step child and definition of change for the sake of change; he was fine as he was and the rework solved no problems or alleviated ANY of zacs inherent issues. He was just made worse, flat.

TL:DR; This "tank update" was just someones excuse to put their sejauni rework out there. Maokai and zac are just unfortunate victims.

58 Comments

LadyRenlyMay 6, 20175 votes

Eh, besides the fact that Sejuani is "overpowered" I don't like her changes. Once the numbers are toned down, I don't think she'll be as fun.

arcinexMay 5, 20174 votes

I prefer Maokai's new ult

ParoeMay 5, 201711 votes

{quoted}

I prefer Maokai's new ult

Ditto. Its a neat flanking tool - definitely a cool addition to a jungler. But it didnt warrant and entire rework; they could have easily put it on his old kit and ALSO not made him the edgelord tree. The shadow isles is a sad place, not an angry place. Maokai is old, why would he be perpetually angry and edgy if hes both old, and misses his forest?

Its the same argument we had for skarner. TIME has passed lore-wise - why would you be angry years later when theres nothing left but sadness? The edge is all riot cared about.

The Lost MarblesMay 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Its the same argument we had for skarner. TIME has passed lore-wise - why would you be angry years later when theres nothing left but sadness? The edge is all riot cared about.

As I understand it, the stones that contain the souls of Skarner's brethren are being used to craft hextech things. I saw a thread discussing this in the Story section a while back.

So I can understand why Skarner might be a bit miffed.

ParoeMay 5, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-05T23:56:53.715+0000)

As I understand it, the stones that contain the souls of Skarner's brethren are being used to craft hextech things. I saw a thread discussing this in the Story section a while back.

So I can understand why Skarner might be a bit miffed.

Pretty sure that was before his retcon. Skarner is no longer from the crystal scar, nor is he the last of his kind. Hes just a big rocky scorpion from SHURIMA!, and perpetually angry because edge.

4th Chiming LambMay 6, 20171 votes

Yeah, the Brakern are still alive now. They went to sleep after/shortly before (don't remember) Azir fucked up, and Skarner is the first one to wake up. He woke up early, and was supposed to in order to see if the Brackern can come back again. The bastard has no reason to be mad.

Variks the LoyalMay 6, 20171 votes

There's a big story about how Piltovians discovered the hibernating Brackern in the desert and are killing them for their crystals.

I believe they call them hexcrystals, idk.

They used the magic in them to fuel their hextechnology, and even discovered ways to make synthetic ones, though synthetic ones aren't as good as the real thing.

They're killing Skarner's brethren (Albeit unknowingly) to fuel their progress, and Skarner is pissed off as all hell about it.

ParoeMay 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There's a big story about how Piltovians discovered the hibernating Brackern in the desert and are killing them for their crystals.

I believe they call them hexcrystals, idk.

They used the magic in them to fuel their hextechnology, and even discovered ways to make synthetic ones, though synthetic ones aren't as good as the real thing.

They're killing Skarner's brethren (Albeit unknowingly) to fuel their progress, and Skarner is pissed off as all hell about it.

Does it really matter? This is a thread about maokai and zac - champions who didnt need such huge changes (maokai could have the new ult on his own kit and it would be neat and deserved though) - got the shaft so riot could hype a group of changes instead of just doing a sejauni rework.

The Lost MarblesMay 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Does it really matter? This is a thread about maokai and zac - champions who didnt need such huge changes (maokai could have the new ult on his own kit and it would be neat and deserved though) - got the shaft so riot could hype a group of changes instead of just doing a sejauni rework.

We all know this already. We've had dozens of other threads about this already, and yours isn't really contributing anything new on that front.

Variks the LoyalMay 6, 20172 votes

I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to the poster I replied to.

I think the reworks are fine, and I don't have any problem with Riot changing things. It's how we get innovation and cool new things. Besides, they were right - every Vanguard was just some variation on Amumu (Jump in, use AoE CC, and do ambient damage). It's not original and doesn't do justice to the characters.

The Lost MarblesMay 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure that was before his retcon. Skarner is no longer from the crystal scar, nor is he the last of his kind. Hes just a big rocky scorpion from SHURIMA!, and perpetually angry because edge.

Have you not even read Skarner's new lore? You sound like you're just generalizing for the sake of being annoyed at something.

http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/champion/skarner/

http://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/story/skarner-color-story/

His anger at the 'softskins' is fairly prominent in the latter.

Also, I found the thread I was talking about.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/T4MpZe8g-since-hextech-crystals-are-often-containers-of-brackern-souls-or-fragments-of-it

Wind WhistlerMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty sure that was before his retcon. Skarner is no longer from the crystal scar, nor is he the last of his kind. Hes just a big rocky scorpion from SHURIMA!, and perpetually angry because edge.

Pretty sure it wasn't. The retcon happened, he got turned into same vague desert scorpion from Shurima, THEN they updated his lore, and it's good now. They updated his lore around the time Taliyah was released, as well as various other Shurima-based champions.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 6, 20171 votes

One of the most fun things for me about playing maokai were his voicelines and his voice in general. To read that he is now an "angry tree" and not a sad one makes me angry. I mean you are alone on a now dead island for centuries (?) with noone to talk to no real purpose and you get angry over it? Idk i would feel depressed and sad with a slight grumpy undertone. Hey that was exactly how old maokai felt to me >.>

Wind WhistlerMay 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ditto. Its a neat flanking tool - definitely a cool addition to a jungler. But it didnt warrant and entire rework; they could have easily put it on his old kit and ALSO not made him the edgelord tree. The shadow isles is a sad place, not an angry place. Maokai is old, why would he be perpetually angry and edgy if hes both old, and misses his forest?

Its the same argument we had for skarner. TIME has passed lore-wise - why would you be angry years later when theres nothing left but sadness? The edge is all riot cared about.

New voiceover is definitely the worst part about Maokai's update. It's not as bad as what they did to Yorick, but I still vastly prefer the older Maokai over the newer one.

AnonagonMay 6, 20174 votes

No, this was not change for the sake of change.

If the tank class didn't have multiple champions in it that would benefit from this scale of rework, they would have picked a different class.

There were very clear reasons to change both Zac and Maokai.

Zac lacked any interactive combat patterns - once he had E'd in, he just pressed his Q, W, and R on cooldown to damage the person he was sitting on. There was no expression of skill in it and no options for the enemy to deal with it but to get out of his range. Zac had two great abilities (E and Passive) and three throwaway ones. This was a perfect candidate for a class rework.

Maokai also had reasons to be changed. His ultimate was pretty busted, but in a way that wasn't super appreciable. The rest of his kit was suggestive of greater thematic possibilities that his generalist playstyle didn't deliver on. Another great candidate for a class rework.

Are the actual reworks successful? It's way too early to tell. It's easy to see that Zac is extremely weak and that Maokai didn't see significant performance increases, but then again balance is not the metric by which a rework's success is judged. Both of the reworks are, in theory, steps towards fixing the problems these champions had (problems which, its important to note, aren't primarily problems that mains of these champions had with them, but problems with the game experience of allies and opponents of these champions, and of the broader game's design.)

ParoeMay 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

No, this was not change for the sake of change.

If the tank class didn't have multiple champions in it that would benefit from this scale of rework, they would have picked a different class.

There were very clear reasons to change both Zac and Maokai.

Zac lacked any interactive combat patterns - once he had E'd in, he just pressed his Q, W, and R on cooldown to damage the person he was sitting on. There was no expression of skill in it and no options for the enemy to deal with it but to get out of his range. Zac had two great abilities (E and Passive) and three throwaway ones. This was a perfect candidate for a class rework.

Maokai also had reasons to be changed. His ultimate was pretty busted, but in a way that wasn't super appreciable. The rest of his kit was suggestive of greater thematic possibilities that his generalist playstyle didn't deliver on. Another great candidate for a class rework.

Are the actual reworks successful? It's way too early to tell. It's easy to see that Zac is extremely weak and that Maokai didn't see significant performance increases, but then again balance is not the metric by which a rework's success is judged. Both of the reworks are, in theory, steps towards fixing the problems these champions had (problems which, its important to note, aren't primarily problems that mains of these champions had with them, but problems with the game experience of allies and opponents of these champions, and of the broader game's design.)

They didnt need full on reworks. They didnt NEED the scope of changes.

Zacs Q? It feels sloppy. Zacs ult? Badly designed. Did zac need a new ult? No. Did zac need a "rework"? No. Could zacs bland Q have been replaced with this cool three stooges style head bonk? Hell yeah. That would have been a cool tweak. They could even have made it into a proper satisfinyg bonk where you smack people together - not this two target requiring thing that looks really wonky.

Maokais ult? Its really cool on a flanker or point blank initiator. Did maokai need the arbitrary damage swap on his W and E? No. He didnt need it, he needed a base damage buff to compensate for the around 240+0.4 base damage they took off it when they nerfed his E and made it only one hit.
Did maokai need a new passive that is extremely over powered in certain situations? No, he did not.

Sejaunis rework is a full, actual rework. It VERY clearly has a lot of time put into it - compared to the others its "polished". Further, we have the rammus rework coming soon which is along the lines of sejauni in scope but NOT part of the MSTU. That fact is more evidence that maokai and zac are victims of riots change for the sake of change policy, victims of riots abysmal hype engine. They needed bodies to pad what otherwise would have been a sejuani rework and an item rebalance. By adding bodies to it they got a "mid season tank update".

NineTailedMysticMay 6, 20171 votes

Did maokai need the arbitrary damage swap on his W and E? No. He didnt need it, he needed a base damage buff to compensate for the around 240+0.4 base damage they took off it when they nerfed his E and made it only one hit.

Yes, so that his W wasn't the best thing in his kit lol.

nGioMay 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, this was not change for the sake of change.

If the tank class didn't have multiple champions in it that would benefit from this scale of rework, they would have picked a different class.

There were very clear reasons to change both Zac and Maokai.

Zac lacked any interactive combat patterns - once he had E'd in, he just pressed his Q, W, and R on cooldown to damage the person he was sitting on. There was no expression of skill in it and no options for the enemy to deal with it but to get out of his range. Zac had two great abilities (E and Passive) and three throwaway ones. This was a perfect candidate for a class rework.

No expression of skill? This is just factually incorrect. I am a 69% Zac main, and the difference between a good Zac and a bad one were extremely noticeable for anyone who actually played him, which you clearly didn't. His ult wasn't "jump in and push R and do damages", unless you're a monkey. Good Zac players could time the engage, further push a single champion out of position, or intentionally knock a desired target into a combo. Bad Zac players would jump in and knock an ADC out of your ally Veigar stun, or turn an ally Malphite ult into a strikeout.

Excellent Zac players were actually few and far between, and you just lacked the ability to see that.

Miror BMay 6, 20173 votes

For me, I wouldn't call sejuani a "good rework". While many will probably disagree, her new kit is extremely imbalanced and feels more like them trying to say "hah, tanks can't do damage? We'd like to have a word on that". Zac's rework took a perfectly fine character and made him completely unusable (see: mage update, malzahar+successive nerfs), while Maokai's just looks like they wanted to add a bunch of cool stuff but didn't want it to end up like post-update malz where his damage ratios were completely screwed up.

Oh, and the tank update sorta failed to address the two "weaker tanks" in rammus and malphite, so good job on that front. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Wind WhistlerMay 7, 20171 votes

Malphite and Rammus are being removed from the game, that's why they weren't in the update. Just wait a while- They'll get theirs, too, and it'll be much worse.

Lucian WaifuMay 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

For me, I wouldn't call sejuani a "good rework". While many will probably disagree, her new kit is extremely imbalanced and feels more like them trying to say "hah, tanks can't do damage? We'd like to have a word on that". Zac's rework took a perfectly fine character and made him completely unusable (see: mage update, malzahar+successive nerfs), while Maokai's just looks like they wanted to add a bunch of cool stuff but didn't want it to end up like post-update malz where his damage ratios were completely screwed up.

Oh, and the tank update sorta failed to address the two "weaker tanks" in rammus and malphite, so good job on that front. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Rammus is getting a lot of changes next patch so maybe that will rectify Riot missing him this patch.

Miror BMay 8, 20171 votes

The changes to cinderhulk sorta "neutralizing" it. Tried rammus earlier on what is supposedly a tank patch, and while I lead my team in damage/kills/assists I was forced into running bloodrazer due to how ridiculously bad cinderhulk is as an item now (no tank jungler ever wants to be splitpushing). Hoping they revert the cinderhulk changes (sunfire ones I don't mind too much), so that we could potentially see rammus become more than just a niche character.

agbudarMay 6, 20172 votes

why are you leaving sej out of the picture?

she arguably needed no class update just a buff to her first clear which was slow and nearly killed her.

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20172 votes

Zac before was pretty boring. The only move that had any thought to it was the Slingshot. Now he actually has decision making.

IceKingChernobogMay 6, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-06T02:19:50.985+0000)

Zac before was pretty boring. The only move that had any thought to it was the Slingshot. Now he actually has decision making.

Zac Boring

Meanwhile Tryndamere Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Nasus MasterYi Kayle Volibear XinZhao Teemo Nunu Jax DrMundo

Yeah, zac is so boring. Plus he has a decision of being useless or slightly less useless.

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20174 votes

I really don't see the point you are trying to make here, that other champions also need tools to make them more engaging and interesting to play?

Hell I'd argue that quite a few of those champions actually have some pretty engaging gameplay on a macro and micro level.

IceKingChernobogMay 6, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-05-06T02:41:44.002+0000)

I really don't see the point you are trying to make here, that other champions also need tools to make them more engaging and interesting to play?

Hell I'd argue that quite a few of those champions actually have some pretty engaging gameplay on a macro and micro level.

Exactly how are any of champs i listed engaging or interesting to play?

Im saying that you're calling zac boring meanwhile there are champs with a binary kit like trynd. Zac is much more fun than any of the champs i listed.

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20172 votes

Homie, I don't know how you're not understanding this.

I agree that you have listed champions with boring elements. Now I will argue that some of them have interesting elements that you are underselling but that is besides the point.

The point is whether or not you feel that a champion having a boring gameplay pattern is enough to justify a rework and isn't "change for the sake of change."

IceKingChernobogMay 6, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-06T05:03:01.404+0000)

Homie, I don't know how you're not understanding this.

I agree that you have listed champions with boring elements. Now I will argue that some of them have interesting elements that you are underselling but that is besides the point.

The point is whether or not you feel that a champion having a boring gameplay pattern is enough to justify a rework and isn't "change for the sake of change."

You still didn't answer my question, which of those champions have "interesting" aspects to them? Also, Zac did not need such a dramatic change in gameplay at all. He doesn't feel strategic or rewarding. He feels unfinished and clunky to the point you have to wait for the enemy to fuck up to make a "play". Zac's rework(Gutting) was "change for the sake of change". More than half of the champions i listed, have kits that are so binary and outdated they need a change.

ParoeMay 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You still didn't answer my question, which of those champions have "interesting" aspects to them? Also, Zac did not need such a dramatic change in gameplay at all. He doesn't feel strategic or rewarding. He feels unfinished and clunky to the point you have to wait for the enemy to fuck up to make a "play". Zac's rework(Gutting) was "change for the sake of change". More than half of the champions i listed, have kits that are so binary and outdated they need a change.

Zacs new Q would be really satisfying if he actually knocked enemies together too :c it feels poorly thought out. Like zac was "the last" of the MSTU champions and only got like a week of work or something.

Maokai feels much the same, with the damage having been swapped around and him being given a singularly cool, new ult and a situationally overpowered passive.

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20171 votes

Pretty sure it does knock them together.

Wind WhistlerMay 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile

Yeah, zac is so boring. Plus he has a decision of being useless or slightly less useless.

Would you consider Yorick to be boring, too?

IceKingChernobogMay 8, 20171 votes

I wouldn't really call him boring persay, but i guess.

Wind WhistlerMay 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't really call him boring persay, but i guess.

Let me clarify.

http://image.prntscr.com/image/a3346938000a43528a2532706ea75380.png

IceKingChernobogMay 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Let me clarify.

http://image.prntscr.com/image/a3346938000a43528a2532706ea75380.png

Oh, Old yorick. Yeah he was super boring to play as. Spam minions in lane and be useless everywhere else.

Wind WhistlerMay 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Oh, Old yorick. Yeah he was super boring to play as. Spam minions in lane and be useless everywhere else.

Lol, yeah, of course you think that. Holy shit- A necromancer that constantly summons minions to fight alongside him in the heat of battle. Why would Riot ever make a champion that does that? How dare they!!!

nGioMay 6, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-06T02:19:50.985+0000)

Zac before was pretty boring. The only move that had any thought to it was the Slingshot. Now he actually has decision making.

Clearly not a Zac player. Gutting the damage of his abilities, nerfing his sustain via ult, and replacing the damage with a buzzword like 'utility' didn't do much except take him down to 40% win rate. The old Zac, I'd tell myself, 'focus and position', with the new ult I'm telling myself 'focus, position, and hope they make a mistake'.

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20172 votes

Homie, you are agreeing with me.

Old Zac you slingshot in and spam Q W on cooldown. Maybe delay ult if you want to walk to a better spot but you'd ult pretty much right after landing E. From there you hop around a bit spreading the CC and mashing W. He was a champ where you just spam your spells on cooldown without much complicated decision making in regards to targets.

His new Q not only has more potential CC power than the old Q but also requires the player to strategize how they want to position themselves and what their second target is. The new ult isn't as default powerful as the old ult, but I feel it has greater potential to completely blow out your opponent's kneecaps in a gank, teamfight, or pick while still having a bit of the old ult's AoE cc power.

nGioMay 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-05-06T05:17:27.031+0000)

Homie, you are agreeing with me.

Old Zac you slingshot in and spam Q W on cooldown. Maybe delay ult if you want to walk to a better spot but you'd ult pretty much right after landing E. From there you hop around a bit spreading the CC and mashing W. He was a champ where you just spam your spells on cooldown without much complicated decision making in regards to targets.

His new Q not only has more potential CC power than the old Q but also requires the player to strategize how they want to position themselves and what their second target is. The new ult isn't as default powerful as the old ult, but I feel it has greater potential to completely blow out your opponent's kneecaps in a gank, teamfight, or pick while still having a bit of the old ult's AoE cc power.

Like I said, it's a lot more 'I hope they make a mistake' when landing abilities, and when they do make the mistake, I am rewarded with less damage and less reliable cc.

He didn't go from top 10 to bottom 10 overnight, because Zac mains are bad at the game. http://www.metasrc.com/all/5v5/current/tierlist?ranks=all

Tobias BracknerMay 6, 20171 votes

Dude, you are mistaking "I hope they make a mistake" with "This move is so godlike I literally just press the button and good things happen."

That was old Zac Q and R. You just press the button and good things happen (although both do have minor aiming qualities that rarely came up as a thing.)

RocketRelmMay 6, 20173 votes

Zac's R had a couple components of complexity to it, the way you bounce people, decision points on whether to go for the blobs or dps a particular target, or spread around the CC. Certainly more thought than the new Maokai ult. Hell, I'd go so far as to argue there's more depth in Zac's old ult than his new one. The new one is fairly braindead. Click R, hope the enemy team purposely lets you scoop them, otherwise you literally have no ult.

I'll agree that his Q was on the simplistic side, but the new Q right now is so clunky it's literally impossible to get the auto onto a champion, because they can walk slowly in the opposite direction.

Tobias BracknerMay 7, 20171 votes

There is in no way more depth tho the old ult than the new one. The movement displacement it had was comedically miniscule. Like, maybe 3 Teemos or so. It was more like a micro-stun than meaningful displacement. Also he had a large width, meaning that rarely would you actually need to choose between DPS or spreading CC (esp since you could mash W during the ult). The enemy would have to be ridiculously on point or really spread out to force decision making on the part of old Zac.

The new one is not braindead in any regards simply because you can't just pop it and mash buttons expecting good things to happen. You have to make sure you are in a good spot to catch targets (they can't just walk out of it, I have no idea why people keep lying about this, if they walk out you fucked up your positioning unless there is some movement speed math people want to show.) Once you have your positioning set and you have targets, then it's about where you want to send them (which will vary vastly from target to target). At it's most base level new R has way more going on for it than old R.

Also I have no idea what problems people are having w/ new Q. The only time I have found it useless is when I'm chasing a single target and even then if you keep your eyes open for neutral monsters and creeps there is a chance to complete the move.

RocketRelmMay 7, 20171 votes

First, 3 Teemos is not minuscule. Trundle pillar booped me 25 pixels to the left is miniscule. 4 Teemos is a Flash.

Second, it's between applying dps to the targets you care about dpsing, and CC, and picking up bloblets depending on the nonsense spots they land.

Third, you're right. Zac's new ult isn't braindead in the sense that you can just pop it and expect good things to happen. It's braindead in the sense that you mash it and pray good things happen. You walk into melee and click R.

Sure, they can't walk out of it, and that's great for the portion of the champion roster without an in-kit dash, they need to burn flash to neutralize your ult. But a sizable chunk of champions click a button and #outplay you. Or if they bought Hextech Protobelt. Or if there's a Thresh on the enemy team.

The one actual decision you make is "do I bounce out of the team fight" or "do I bounce them into my team". The former is a really trash Poppy Ult, the latter is nice, but actually getting on top of a target you want to pull and then successfully pulling them is difficult to say the least. In most team fights it's unreasonable, and in those fights you don't have an ult.

Tobias BracknerMay 8, 20171 votes

4 Teemos is a Flash 3 Teemos is the example

3 Teemos is miniscule.

I don't see how picking up bloblets would ever ever be a priority in the ult unless there is an extremely niche scenario. And once again, picking up bloblets is covered in my statement of "The AoE is wide enough you can accomplish all of these things at the same time."

You walk into melee and click R

Oooooooh, so that's the problem. You are just using it terribly.

For the ones w/ dashes you just bait out the dash w/ your E. Then you Q them back to your team/you. Then you ult. Alternatively you hunt for scenarios where they just used their dash or just use the base knock up it gives. All these scenarios result in starting a fight which is still a thing that Zac wants to do.

Trash Poppy ult

Look at hitboxes of the moves. Enemies are more likely to be in a ball than a line.

In most team fights it's unreasonable

In skirmishes, yeah. SHit like 2v2 and 3v3 it's going to be hard to find a second target for Q (assuming no minions) 5v5? There is always a target, and if there isn't you have successfully chased them out of the fight, making it a 4v5.

BakedLotionMay 6, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-05-06T05:17:27.031+0000)

Homie, you are agreeing with me.

Old Zac you slingshot in and spam Q W on cooldown. Maybe delay ult if you want to walk to a better spot but you'd ult pretty much right after landing E. From there you hop around a bit spreading the CC and mashing W. He was a champ where you just spam your spells on cooldown without much complicated decision making in regards to targets.

His new Q not only has more potential CC power than the old Q but also requires the player to strategize how they want to position themselves and what their second target is. The new ult isn't as default powerful as the old ult, but I feel it has greater potential to completely blow out your opponent's kneecaps in a gank, teamfight, or pick while still having a bit of the old ult's AoE cc power.

You'll land the ult maybe once every 10 games lmao. And that's if they let you.

People can just walk out

Tobias BracknerMay 7, 20171 votes

Dude, git gud.

I played 2 games as Zac and the only ults I completely failed were my first 3 trying to understand how the move works. I've probably landed a total of 5.

It has an in-built slow and you catch them when they are in an awkward position to begin with.

BakedLotionMay 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=00040001000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-07T06:57:48.146+0000)

Dude, git gud.

I played 2 games as Zac and the only ults I completely failed were my first 3 trying to understand how the move works. I've probably landed a total of 5.

It has an in-built slow and you catch them when they are in an awkward position to begin with.

bronze 4 telling people to git gud

ok follow your own advice and maybe you wouldnt be bronze xddddddd

Tobias BracknerMay 8, 20171 votes

Oh no, he's proving that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about! Better call him bronze!

Yeah feel free to throw in the last word. I'm done with you.

BakedLotionMay 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jABvaaTl,comment-id=0004000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T19:24:18.365+0000)

Yeah feel free to throw in the last word. I'm done with you.

I never disagreed with you I just told you to follow your own advice since you're clearly doing it more right than I am?

And telling me to gitgud? lul. nice1