Can we address how some classes don't define some of their champions well?

EinarUlfar··2 votes·257 views
  • Some Assassins should no longer be called Assassins, because some have lost their upfront burst. By giving a delay but leaving ratios, they're effectively somewhere between burst and sustained damage.

  • Some **Marksmen **should be called Assassins because their burst far surpasses that of an Assassin-class champion without having to accrue a hefty amount of gold + Items. ^ Likewise for some mages, but there's different contributing factors for that. I thought they were Sustained Damage Carries?

  • Some **Tanks **fail to feel robust anymore even when properly itemized, but I'm not sure if this was due to Tank Item changes or the tweaking of tanks stats/numbers; I'm not an avid Tank player. Would need a Tank-fanatic to elaborate on this for me.

  • Some **Bruisers **fail to even meet the conditions for their class now; incapable of either A. Gap closing effectively due to mobility creep and undertuning / lack of very useful runes / B. Inability to shred through a target due to being outclassed in damage/CDs. / C. Fail to sustain through the damage they're taking due to undertuning of class or overtuning of others - whether it be through CDs, damage numbers, runes, or the collective whole.

Final note: Why is so much free damage loaded into the RFC+SS combination? Why is Duskblade a free bandaid for many poorly balanced AD kits? Why do people have to consistently complain about the damage amount when YOU, RIOT, have so many other factors you can tweak to give yourselves a faster-paced MOBA if that's where you want League to be?

5 Comments

Crett2 votes

well. burst =/= assassin. graves isn't about to dive past the frontline and twoshot your ADC. he doesn't have that kind of mobility. he's got a little dash but it doesn't make the difference class-wise.

fizz or kha'zix CAN jump past your frontline, kill a squishy, and in many cases get out afterwards. assassins take out priority targets the second they get the opportunity. burst, delayed burst, even autoattacks in the case of say, twitch, a secondary role assassin.

how they do it doesn't matter. it's gameplay patterns that matter, which damage profile does factor into, but i don't think it's the sole arbiter of class definition

additionally, they have actually defined subclasses to cover different types of each class. if a champion is lacking a certain kind of strength, that's probably intended. if they NEED that strength to survive in the game, then i think that may be a problem with the game system as a whole rather than the champion.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list there is another link there that goes into detail as to what the subclasses mean.

i feel like it may be difficult for a rioter to respond to this post, because you're not really giving them any ground. for a meaningful exchange you should try to find a clear point of discussion instead of a laundry list for a rioter to spend an entire afternoon trying to respond to. for example, what champions in particular do you feel fail to meet the definition of their class?

EinarUlfar2 votes

Specifically burst alone doesn't define an Assassin, you're right. It's more of they've been relegated to rely more heavily on the team to assist them in isolating / killing that target provided their setup isn't negated due to a delay (and quantity of reactions able to done in response to said delay has increased). Even taking into consideration the shift to an even more team-oriented game than LoL already was, it takes away the satisfaction of playing some Assassins. Target selection becomes more difficult for them with the introduction of more mobility/CC on the opposing end, however.

The small increase in passive gold, lowering of Zeal's item costs, and the empowering of Supports as a role and their items enables ADCs to come online sooner; even hypercarries - and it hasn't been entirely assessed by adjusting necessary factors to take into account this major change in League.

Only a handful of Tanks genuinely feel like they do their role anymore, and likewise for Bruisers. Again, I don't know if this is due to individual tuning of variables or the adjustment of the Tank item's stats.

Riot always had a more generalist approach for their classes; in pursuit of ensuring LoL never takes on the nature of DotA in which many people simply have hard-counters that deny them their win condition.

Whisper872 votes

You said it. I mean I know part of what makes LOL is that it is more approachable from a beginner or casual standpoint, but I think there is some middle ground that RIOT is refusing to try and find.

They refuse to focus on viability of specific champions, instead they tunnel vision on classes as a whole. As a result the top tier picks of any class ends up being kind of a generalist.

If we give champions really strong specific skill sets and have them very clearly excel at certain things and have very real windows in their character as a whole as well as their scaling, the game actually becomes more interesting because the trade off is cooler skills and more change from game to game.

Yeah it might be frustrating in an individual game because you get countered, or maybe that one game is a bit static like you picked a certain champion for a very specific reason, but by necessity and for the sake of interest you would have a wider champion pool and play against a wider variety of champions!

We may lose a few one-trick players along the way. But I think LOL will be fine without them.

Whisper872 votes

I've been saying this for years. Riot has this obsession with tweaking damage on things until they are unplayable or must-pick.

Now to be fair, I'm sure this is mostly due to the fact that there are so many champs and things for Riot to work on. I mean tweaking numbers here and there is much easier to do and to dial up or down accordingly. Changing utility, like say for instance Yasuo's windwall or Bard's ult is much tougher. Since there is not damage attached to it, it's viability is a little less tangible and it's harder to measure impact.

Having said that, though, I wholeheartedly agree. I would much rather see fewer patches or fewer changes per patch in exchange for more dynamic changes. The fact that we now play a LOL where tanks are only playable if they do good damage, and even enchanters like Janna and Soraka have to have some pretty good laning damage and trading to be viable...to me that's debacle. Janna was so much cooler when she didn't do shit for damage but her utility was just so damn impressive she could carry a game. Let's see more of that!

Here's a short list of some good changes Riot did, and should try to strive for:

  1. Changing the interaction between Zoe's ult -Q comboing. Provided some counterplay windows rather than just nerfing her damage. (Side note: I'd say it's maybe worth looking into nerfing her wave clear a touch too)

  2. Providing a range indicator on Ori's ult. Again, counterplay input, no damage trade out.

  3. Sivir's ult deteriorating at healthy rate.

  4. Kindred ult and mark changes. Now I know Kindred is just messed up and Riot kind of backed themselves into a corner by making a ranged champion with such a strong ult that the only way to balance it is to make everything else about it pretty much garbage. BUT let me just say this: they were on the right track by making the ult have to be cast on Kindred and not on allies, and by making her marks harder to attain. When they started jerking around her sustain and base damages in when she got all kinds of messed up.

Now I know that if we start getting into champions with one dimensional patterns of play or super strong utility it starts to look a little like DOTA up in here, but there are some cool things that I believe DOTA does well that Riot has gotten away from.

  1. Prioritizing champion identity over class identity.

  2. Muddling power spikes and troughs. To me runes and items have provided too much coverage for the inherent weak points of champions. Item power spikes used to be more extreme high's and more extreme lows in relation to other characters in the game. This is super evident in things like Crit ADCS, who used to have a pretty garbage early game, a pretty good 3 item spike, then a really strong 5 item spike. Now it kind of feels like they are just ok early game then just kind of run away with it at 3 items. Other classes have issues too, like I want AD assassins to be relevant too, but it kind of feels like the only way to put an assassin in the dirt and keep them there is to accrue like a 10K lead before they can finish Duskblade. (Remember when Riot said in that huge assassin patch that assassins were supposed to be high risk high reward? They don't feel so high risk right now even when they get behind early)

  3. Game counters. So league has mostly lane counters and then some compositional counters, so like for instance picking Illaoi or Gnar into a tank top laner, or building a 1-3-1 comp with an assassin mid when the enemy team picks Syndra, etc etc. But I'm talking about stuff like Poppy's ability to block Zac engage. We need more of that kind of thing across the board. Or like maybe some champions with a built in Grievous Wounds in their kit.

I know Riot doesn't want to go with the whole "Win game in champ select" thing, which admittedly does happen quite often in Dota, but it makes the game so dynamic and interesting. Like here's the deal, in DOTA you might select this one champ who just scales like crazy and can almost solo carry if you let him get to late game. But the tradeoff is that he does like next to nothing in the early and mid game, and your opponents have all kinds of crazy CC and/or mobility to try and end the game before that point. Very clear powerspikes and defined win conditions BASED ON CHAMP SELECT is actually what creates the variety from game to game and promotes creativity from teams. It's very engaging to watch during both champ select and the actual match under this system.

So my summary after this novel: Let's see larger gaps between champions' strengths and weaknesses, both on the whole and within each of the respective classes (this is part champ design, part item design, part pacing issues). Let's also see some high high value utility with little to no damage. Braum E is one of my favorite skills in the game as like a quiet carry spell. Short duration, VERY high impact, can be game changing when used correctly but can also be very meh based on enemy team's composition and user skill. There should be way more of that kind of thing in the game.

EinarUlfar1 votes

God this analysis is downright beautiful. Agreed on ALL points, honestly. You're the kind of voice I feel we need INSIDE of Riot to shift League to a much more healthy place than what it has come to today.

+1 me for Visibility for both your and my post please! (=

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