Why I think the Sejuani rework is a massive blunder

Big Lincoln··31 votes·2,131 views

big post below, going to break up the topics like this. And I'll preface it with "this is all my opinion," of course

  1. What was bad about old Sejuani -- Why she did need changes.
  2. What this rework did right
  3. What this rework did wrong
  4. Why I ultimately think it was a failure
  5. How to salvage it (from my perspective)

Why old Sejuani needed to change

I won't deny that Sejuani had a very straightforward kit -- maybe a little too simple for what Riot wants out of their champions these days. She's not a champion with complex patterns; she jumps on you, she presses W and runs around the fight, tags as many people as she can, and then presses E to slow everyone long enough for W to be up again, rinse and repeat with the occasional ult thrown in when she can hit multiple people with it. And there's not really a lot of counterplay or interaction on the enemy team's part; if you get tagged by even just a stray tick of her W's DoT, you're going to get slowed and eat a little damage and there's nothing you can do about it. Her ult was fairly difficult to avoid for just how potent it actually was, so unless you had your finger on the Flash you were probably going to get locked down, and her instant dash, like Gragas, makes it hard to play around her when she's anywhere near you unless you're mind-gaming her really well. And, you know, she has a passive that you barely notice or appreciate. Furthermore, her W and her E are used so interchangeably that you could probably combine the spells and she wouldn't change too much depending on how you implemented it, and I might argue would actually make her much healthier if you freed up a spell slot for something fresh. (If it was a stacking slow like Rammus's PBE ult vs if it was back-loaded like her new stun, which I'll get to.)

What's good about the rework

As far as things that I'm pleased about with the rework go, as few as they are, I think that it was a good idea to back-load her impact onto dedicating a little bit more to a fight; rather than just sort of running around to pop her E off on everyone she can touch, she's a little bit more deliberate. I'm not too crazy about the stack mechanic her E gives, I think it's a very overused and uninspired mechanic, but it's at least functional and gives all parties involved some idea of how close Sejuani is to popping her Permafrost. And, I guess, in concept at least, her new kit does appeal to me, but that appeal doesn't translate into the actual gameplay for a couple of reasons, which make me feel as though the rework could have been really good but ended up a disaster.

What's bad about the rework

First, I'll talk about her passive. It feels to me, as though it's a massive stat check. I'm heavily biased here because I have a preference for the sort of playstyles that reward aggression, for going in and staying in fights, and that seems like something that would be very suiting for Sejuani. Instead, you get this slightly-altered Malzahar passive, where you just get to be incredibly durable and absorb any burst that's sent your way. It doesn't really provide anything to play around, because it strictly recharges outside of combat, so it'll usually be a one-time thing in teamfights. And then, obviously the damage is just ridiculous; 10-20% HP is far too high for being purely base damage alone. In general, her damage is FAR too high for a champion who has a knock up, a slow, and two 2-second stuns, all spread out through every ability. Her W and her E, I have a lot of issues with; namely that it still feels like you could just combine these abilities and Sejuani would be immensely better off with the freed-up spell slot, because they just feel so interchangeable. Particularly frustrating is that it seems like with her E's point-click, single target nature, you were supposed to have some sort of decision making process as to who to stun, but that falls very flat on its face when Sejuani can realistically only stack up one person to full at a time (by herself). It creates this false choice, because you're not ever going to wait to stun, you're going to pop them off as soon as you can because there's no reason not to. The stun that she has, I'm not fond of, because I feel like "hard-CC lockdown tank" is not enhancing her character or giving her a unique role in the team. And then lastly, her ult; I will always vehemently disagree that Sejuani's ult needed to be changed. It was the one high moment of her kit, and I think that nerfing it to the place it is now was the wrong move. I would have been much happier with some sort of wind-up before the throw; just a telegraph, I think, would have made this spell more appropriate for its power.

I want to dedicate a paragraph to her E's melee-teammate mechanic, and why I think this was just an obscenely terrible idea, for one simple reason; it's not natural to her kit. You needed to force this interaction in in the first place, and then you needed to exclude ranged champions from being able to use it so that you could call it synergy with melee teammates. When I say "natural synergy," I mean someone like Ivern. Ivern's Q providing his team a gap-closer benefits melee champions immensely more than it does most ranged champions, but ranged allies can still use it and not feel bad because they'll still be in range to do their thing. And the same for his E; melee champions who want to jump in and maximize how many people get tagged with the shield bomb's slow will get the most mileage out of it, but it's still an incredibly good defensive tool to help peel for ranged carries. It's not this hamfisted implementation that makes him work great with melee teammates like Juggernauts or Divers; it's just a natural progression of his kit that he can still play without, and it doesn't take up too much of his power budget. Sejuani is not this; she is HUGELY hampered without one or two melee teammates to stack up on other enemies, but she is heinously overbearing when she has that team comp, to the point that it doesn't feel fair when all she has to do is stand near them, not even standing near you. It's a very large portion of her power budget, because she was very explicitly designed around needing melee teammates, but I would say that it's not synergy with melee teammates as much as it anti-synergy with ranged ones.

Why I think the rework falls flat

You didn't enhance her theme, and you didn't really expand on what was already there; you replaced her with a champion that plays a lot like Sejuani, but excels at an entirely different thing, and has completely different power curves. Getting to level 6 doesn't feel as impactful as it does now; it's gone from the strong teamfight ult to "I'm going to stunlock one person for 3.5 to 4.5 seconds." Bristle is actually LESS involved than he was before, even though you guys said you wanted to make them feel more like a duo a la Kled. Her power is distributed through her kit more, but it's done in a way that doesn't make her feel better to play against; you can't really do much against her if she has melee teammates because even if you avoid her, they still stack the stun, but if she doesn't then her job becomes incredibly hard vs a lot of champions who can juke her easily. She does far too much damage without building damage, and she's got way too much CC than should be considered acceptable. And despite all of this power that she's got, I don't feel satisfied even when I play her well.

How I'd change it

Now, this is iffy and completely subjective to what my expectations of Sejuani are/were, but I feel like I could offer my own version of this rework just as someone who's very enthusiastic about her and wants to see her better off, that sort of pulls her back to her original niche as the tank who provides an abundance of slows, and makes the choice of when to pop her E a little more of a choice, with something a little more noticeable for enemies to play around, too.

Passive - Shatter damage reduced (ideally removed). Still does the same to monsters.

W - _now a two-cast skill, where W2 can be cast within the next few seconds of activating the spell. Windup on each swing slightly upped to compensate for W2 being free-aimable. Magic damage. Slow on W2 removed. _

E - _Keep the point and click, but make it pop a slow instead of a stun on the target enemy for X-Y seconds, and apply that same slow and damage in a lingering area around them. Champions/Large Monsters who are hit by the AoE detonation will also get a stack of Permafrost applied to them. Teammates can no longer stack it. (Think of it like a stronger, ranged Iceborn proc). Possibly up the maximum number of stacks, now that W is two-cast. _

I think that this gives her more noticeable, appreciable skill expression like you aimed for; I think the 'Shatter' mechanic removes any reason you have NOT to stun immediately, but making it an AoE slow gives you a little bit more reason to assess in teamfights; do I want to slow them now to make them vulnerable while isolated, or do I want to wait until they've run into their team so I can pop it while they're in the middle of them and get stacks on them, so I can do it again. I'd like to move the % damage to her E detonation and remove Shatter entirely, but I don't know how well that would actually work. Removing the melee synergy means more power can be put into Sejuani herself, and also makes it so that she can't remove her primary counterplay by having short-range teammates.

That's all. Let me know what you think.

37 Comments

Erockandroll6 votes

You had a table of contents, yet for some reason, your sections arn't labeled.

Regardless of length, that's some points off in formatting.

LankPants4 votes

E - Keep the point and click, but make it pop a slow instead of a stun on the target enemy for X-Y seconds, and apply that same slow and damage in a lingering area around them. Champions/Large Monsters who are hit by the AoE detonation will also get a stack of Permafrost applied to them. Teammates can no longer stack it. (Think of it like a stronger, ranged Iceborn proc). Possibly up the maximum number of stacks, now that W is two-cast.

Can't say I'd agree with that change. It just sounds frankly terrible. I think a stun on one target is almost always better than an AOE slow and the loss of stuns from this would make make Sejuani defunct as a tank. Remember that after this change she'd be down to 2.5 seconds of single target lockdown at best with no AOE lockdown at all and most of that is ultimate gated. She'd just lack the hard CC she'd actually need to function.

Big Lincoln2 votes

just a spitball, I'm partial to old Sej and being able to constantly apply slows. long lasting slow zones (since it's not a stun we can up the duration I get, 2-3 maybe higher) with her Q knockup reverted to 1 second would be what I'd like, not saying it needs to or should happen

or reduce the stun duration but give Sejuani bonus MS toward frozen targets so she can be sticky like she was pre rework.

if I wanted to play a lockdown tank I already had nearly the entire rest of the tank roster

LankPants1 votes

I personally don't have a problem with E as a whole, I just have a problem with her allies applying it. I've played a couple of games with mostly or in one case I think all ranged and in these cases the E feels surprisingly good from a gameplay perspective. It's a little weak, obviously but it doesn't feel like you're just randomly locking people down without interaction. It feels more like a tool for sticking to the target you're chasing down, although my build may also influence that too.

In a scenario where W was pulling its own weight and her passive isn't insanely overbearing I think her E could be a fine spell on condition that you lose the ally stacking portion and let Sej stack it a bit easier.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i havent had any trouble stacking it as is, for one person at a time rather.

t it doesn't feel like you're just randomly locking people down without interaction.

that's what i've been doing before she went permaban, just hit the nearest person and stun them ASAP. worked fine so far, spammed her for easy plat promos

LankPants1 votes

that's what i've been doing before she went permaban, just hit the nearest person and stun them ASAP. worked fine so far, spammed her for easy plat promos

That's by definition not without interaction. If you're on top of them and hitting them then you are interacting with them. The no interaction case is when it's your Irelia on them and you're just somewhere nearby.

i havent had any trouble stacking it as is, for one person at a time rather.

I'd agree with that, what I'd actually like to see is better AOE stacking tied to her ultimate. I think that would be a fair tradeoff for her current ally stacking.

Big Lincoln1 votes

What would be most important to me is to have her damage be spread out over consistent patterns instead of being all loaded into one burst set-up and then doing peanut damage for the 10-second lockout, and also trading melee interactions for more power in herself. Something like her ult applying 2 stacks over the course of the storm's duration and refreshing any other stacks while they're in it, in exchange for having to finish the stacking herself.

If that changed, I could live with her E being a stun, but I think the only way to have her have damage of ANY sort and be fair is to have it entirely loaded onto sustained damage and not the burst she's currently capable of.

tl;dr reduce her burst, raise sustained damage, remove melee "synergy" but give her better stacking for herself

LankPants1 votes

tl;dr reduce her burst, raise sustained damage, remove melee "synergy" but give her better stacking for herself

That's basically what I think needs to happen as well.

Tell me what you think of this

When Sejuani damages a frozen target she shatters their defences against her frost immediately dealing 2/3/4% of her max HP+2/3/4% of their max HP as magic damage. Over the next 5 seconds Sejuani's attacks and basic spells deal bonus magic damage equal to 0.5/1/1.5% of her max HP+0.5/1/1.5% of their max HP. Sejuani's auto attacks have a 1 second CD on procing this effect.

Big Lincoln1 votes

that doesn't sound too bad, I had something more simple with W just doing bonus damage for consecutive hits but yours is a lot more.. inclusive? of the rest of her kit, i like it

what would you think about her gaining some of her AP ratios back on W and E, or adding one to passive? there's a lot of items she could have been so good with item 3027 item 3030 item 3151 item 3152 in particular, but with how most of her damage is on something that only scales with her level (and some of it on her own health ratio) these items are pretty wasteful

LankPants1 votes

what would you think about her gaining some of her AP ratios back on W and E, or adding one to passive?

Completely neutral. I personally don't really care, I can understand why people would though.

I think Liandry's is the main one of those items I'd expect Sej to be using and it would most likely be useable now if her W dealt magic damage. It is still good pen and I think you can afford to be a little bit wasteful of stats on a last item.

Still giving W a 0.2/0.4 AP ratio or something like that really does seem like a 0 cost change in the long run, it's probably just better to wait till she's not as strong as she is now though.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i actually just remembered what I was thinking about earlier, would you think it too big of a nerf to put Shatter passive (the current one) on her E to remove the double-proc from R, but to allow the double-stun to go both ways in exchange? i think the really high % damage she can do with this is a little extraneous and could afford to be trimmed

LankPants1 votes

I think I have suggested that it should work exactly like that before TBH. I feel like the stun lockout is one of the big things leading to her R feeling like a weak ability and mostly just being saved as a secondary nuke.

NíbbaBíbba3 votes

Its to long I don't wanna read that much but ill upvote cause its sounds sciencey

Big Lincoln2 votes

Should I break up the paragraphs a little more?

NíbbaBíbba1 votes

nah, i come to board for quick little reads, no long essays, but you put a lot of work into it and it looks pretty through and like front page material

Mordepool1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/YHPBc6k3-board-formatting-101

I'm just going to leave this here. It's a very useful Read

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

Head each paragraph with the grouping you provided at the top. Label each section maybe? IDK. It's not htat long

Big Lincoln1 votes

is that better

crippler381 votes

I found it easy to read by the time I got to it.

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

Yup! I enjoyed the post in it's first iteration. Was just giving you advice since others seemed to think it was long and unreadable. Good work!

Milla Jovovich1 votes

This comment was too long but I upvoted cause there is a word Long in it.

Baron of Bread3 votes

I don't understand why you think Bristle is less involved than before. Literally nothing changed that Bristle had a part in (there was an animation on the E detonation though which you might be thinking about), which has only ever been Q.

I honestly don't think that "tank that provides a lot of slows" is a good niche for Sejuani. It is barely even a niche and I doubt she will ever do it better than Nautilus so long as Naut has his E (combined with Iceborn gauntlet and he can perma-slow). The "all in melee comp tank" niche is a fine one for her to have, but I agree that the new E feels shoehorned. That said, she always liked a "go ham" comp and those tend to be stacked with melee types. I am not sure how much her niche really changed, they pretty much just limited her to that niche (which I am not a fan of, but it could be worse).

The new passive is much better than the old one (the resist part, the damage passive might as well be on E). The old one was just a stat chunk for being in a fight, the new one actually requires some thought (at least on the enemies' part). Sej can't dally near a fight or her passive will be taken by stray poke and she will want it to engage. It really hammers an engage style to her, go in and get their attention. Combine that with the E, and the enemy will want to kill you fast so you don't stun a bunch of them and chunk them with the Shatter damage. The numbers are high right now, but that can be easily remedied.

As for her having too much single target cc, I don't think so. She can't keep someone under hard cc for more than 3.5 seconds unless they have somehow managed to disengage from Sejuani (if you start with the ult you can't use the Permafrost stun for 8 seconds, and you won't get the empowered bola to follow a Permafrost stun unless they somehow got a lot of distance between you and them while stunned). Nautilus can do similar things without help from allies, as can Galio and Gnar (Braum can do it with allies). Is her CC really strong? Yes, it is up there as being one of the strongest cc kits in the game. I just don't think it is completely unmanageable balance-wise.

As for your change ideas, I don't think her W really needs any changes and I don't think that there will be many times that "don't use it immediately" is a good choice with your E. I like your basis for the E change though, but I think a different mechanic might be better for that since in most fights the person you stack on isn't going to run back into the middle of their team anytime soon.

Fondling Gems9 votes

Bristle does interact slightly less than before because during Sej's old W Sej's auto attacks were replaced with bristle headbutts. They removed one of the two things Bristle actually did when Riot specifically stated they wanted Sej to feel like she actually had a mount that interacted.

They used the comparison that an unmounted Sej would have worked and looked fine without any kit changes before and that is doubly true now.

Big Lincoln3 votes

Bristle used to attack during her W which he doesn't now. At the very least his animation could have used for when she procs Shatter.

It's fine that Sejuani has a lot of CC but I would say she has too much, especially given the amount of burst damage she's capable of. But she needs that damage to jungle, and Riot was antsy about giving her too many jungle interactions

Sejuani might eventually be functional with enough tweaking and probably by only letting her have high damage to monsters, but she's become a champion I have no interest in playing, so after she's nerfed from her current top tier I'll probably be shelving her.

fuffychan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=voX2EoRX,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-05T03:43:16.195+0000)

tl;dr because shes op

Dont know why you thought you needed to type all that

Big Lincoln10 votes

dang fuffy you're right

what was i thinking man

Milla Jovovich3 votes

There is still time young Lincoln,click Edit and delete this essay.

LankPants3 votes

Shitposts sure are high quality tonight.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Expected REEEEEEEEE

Got REEEasonable arguements, I'm impressed!

Jokes aside, I think her passive is pretty cool, it basically tells you ''Don't blow all your cooldowns the moment she jumps in, but wait it out'' I think that's a very fitting mechanic, even tho I think it would've been cooler if it were an active ability, Kinda like Sion's W :P I like her W a lot, I'm a huge fan of what they did with it, allthough your suggestion of making it a 2 part ability is arguably even better. I agree on her E, I really dislike it aswell, I hope they'll give it some follow up As far as her ult goes, I can see where you're coming from, but I personally think it's fine, and definelty doesn't need changes nearly as much as her E. Her E really is the main issue IMO

EDIT: It could be cool if they gave her back her Bristle AA

Big Lincoln1 votes

i only post quality, it's my duty as the most intelligent poster

im not fond of passive but then again the only passives i like are the ones that let me kill people Darius Illaoi Bard

KoKoboto1 votes

Ayy finally a decent post that isn't a just rant. Just did a quick skim over but I'll reply in full later probably, just came back from school and it's 12:10am where I'm at.

I like the changes you have for E.

IceKingChernobog1 votes

At least she's viable now, unlike a certain gelatinous man

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I agree with what you're saying.

As a shallow person I'm mainly very salty about the skins team very poor treatment of her skins. They all just look terrible now. Especially Poro Rider and SabreTusk, they just really didn't try or want to try.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

As a Non-Sejuani Player, please take this with a grain (More like a Packet) of salt.

remove stun damage

Q gives all allies around a small speed boost (like Mini Kled ult) and refreshes frost armour for .5 seconds + .5 for each champion he hits

W has two casts ones, the cone which slows, and the swing, If sejuani hits with just the tip while 4 stacks, stunned, or not 4 stacks, slows for like 50%

E slows unless 4 stacks. every thing in the passive is the same

R the storm lasts 3 seconds and deals small amount of damage and applies frost every .5 seconds if they reach 4 stacks while in it, they are stunned.

LankPants1 votes

Q gives all allies around a small speed boost (like Mini Kled ult) and refreshes frost armour for .5 seconds + .5 for each champion he hits

Can we stop giving Sejuani ally interactions? They just feel immensely out of place on her kit.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

you would know better than I would. I just thought it fit her WarChief theme

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

I'd also say change her ult into something like item 3800 to interact with Bristle and cavalry style more.

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