Instead of using tanks and supports as scapegoats for assassins and fighters being worthless, just stop making the world revolve around 1 single role. I don't know why Rito is so obsessed with adc, but this needs to end.
T2theMan20 votesWhy do people think this game will ever value all roles the same in a given meta? That's the whole idea of a meta, it shifts. We have had every kind of meta, ap support meta, tank meta, carry top lane meta, tank jungle meta, adc meta ( more than once ), assassin jungle meta, etc. The game will always put emphasis on something, this time around it's the adc. I have no idea why companies are so hesitant to articulate to their playerbase what a meta is, how it is inevitable in a game like this with so many variables, and how it is a healthy thing to have in a game. It might be because so many players just have no idea how to adapt and since most players are gold and below, they want everything they play to be good all the time since champ pools are usually very limited for players in these elos.
PePsiLemoNN4 votesNah , the circlejerk must go on :^)
Bronze Demon4 votesWhy do people think this game will ever value all roles the same in a given meta? That's the whole idea of a meta, it shifts. We have had every kind of meta, ap support meta, tank meta, carry top lane meta, tank jungle meta, adc meta ( more than once ), assassin jungle meta, etc. The game will always put emphasis on something, this time around it's the adc. I have no idea why companies are so hesitant to articulate to their playerbase what a meta is, how it is inevitable in a game like this with so many variables, and how it is a healthy thing to have in a game. It might be because so many players just have no idea how to adapt and since most players are gold and below, they want everything they play to be good all the time since champ pools are usually very limited for players in these elos.
s2-s7, adc mandatory, adc meta forever.
yeah right, real shifts.
HellbornCreator7 votessorry bud circlejerk more
Skorch3 votesYou know what else is mandatory? AP Damage. What else? A tank.
Now I know what you are gonna say "But there are comps that dont do that." You would be right. But you know what else? It can make the game much harder. And ADC-less comps are just as difficult.
The only thing CONSISTANT about meta is that the source of the primary AD damage doesnt move, they are always botlane. While mages can move into support or mid depending on meta. Tanks can swap between jungle top and support.
The issue isnt ADCs being permanently mandatory. But that there hasnt been a major change in the botlane position since s2. Well with the exception of Ziggs for like 2 patches.
nice table7 votesi like how every other meta is "x champions in x role" but adc meta is when there are 10 adcs in a game because adcs have been meta since season 2.
Skorch4 votesBut... this is considered an ADC meta... and tanks and enchanter supports are the main part of the meta. There arent 10 ADCs in any game right now.
If your complaining about Corki/Lucian mid and Ez jungle, dont. They are there for very specific reasons and not just "ADC OP lul"
nice table6 votesadcs are legit played in every role right now and most of the other roles are there just to compliment the adcs, imagine if very specific tanks would be meta in the marksman role and every other role in the game, the shitstorm from adc mains would be massive.
Skorch2 votesAll on 1 team in 1 game? I beg to differ.
Riot has been working on making marksman able to be played elsewhere, and look at the shitstorm it caused.
nice table1 votesmarksmen have been able to be played elsewhere for god knows how long.
Skorch1 votesIn S1, S2 they stopped, and they started going elsewhere AROUND the marksman update. I think that was preseason 6.
Sure there are exceptions, but Riot hasnt been balancing them with other lanes in mind till that point. Unless it was to nerf an insane pick.
Kaeblen1 voteswhen was the last time it was not favorable to have at least 1 adc in every team composition?
your claim implies that meta is expected to shift over time, but this detail hasn't shifted in a while. people are calling for this particular shift in meta. they are not calling for the lack of a meta.
Cowseed1 votesMeta's are basically my least favourite thing about any multiplayer game.
How I see metas is basically this: Everyone loses every sense of individuality and basically sells there sole to try and be 'better'. In 1v1 oriented game then sure you can have your metas and I won't care. But when it's on a team based game its a lot more oppressive. :/
It's one thing to play what fits a comp or fill in roles that your team needs. It's another thing to be forced to do shit you don't like or aren't even comfortable with because your teamates don't think its OP. Example - the enchanters/ardent meta.
I don't think a meta is heathy in any game. It turns it into a clown fiesta of who can abuse the the most well known strategy the best.
Players that try to play how they're comfortable suffer the most. I had started running ghost exhause on assassins a few months ago because I took the time to actually read about the different abilities and spells and whatnot and thought to myself: hey, this is actually better than ignite i'd say. So I started running it. Realize it was a really fun combo to use. Post on boards about it saying that exhaust is better than ingite, some sheep probably downvoted me because I'm bronze and had no say in saying whats good or not in the game. A week or two later boards flooded with why does "exhaust reduce resistances?" posts. Another couple of weeks after that exhaust gets nerfed. Then darius players start using ghost and ghost gets nerfed because of that.
Metas just punish creative players for finding good combos of abilites, strategies and so on. You can say "just keep those strats to yourself" but even then. If you do too well and are unlucky enough to be seen by a youtuber who likes to make clickbait "this strategy is busted/OP" vids then its bye bye strategy.
An example of this would be phylol. During the lethality meta and the 'adc 2k17 lol' meme days he made a boot complaining about ninja tabi. He said it's op because it gave some percentage AA reduction. Because he's a Youtube and diamond on a EU server everyone just took his word for it. Never mind the fact that he's an adc main who's damage is largely reliant on AAs so he could be a little biased. But no he's a YouTuber so yeah that shits suddenly OP now. And where the hell are we now? A god damn adc meta.
This is also a guy who made a video about how to abuse caitlyn traps by hiding traps behind blue side bot towers and a month later stated she was god aweful and unbarable to play against and wish she would get nerfed. He also makes tier list every patch which makes me hate him more.
I was naive enough to think that the new runes would provide a much needed break from this kinda crap but the YouTubers are already on it. Videos are already being made about which runes will be the best and other crap along these lines.
I think this meta thing might hold back more players than players it might actually help climb. I believe that not so small group of players are being held back by being meta slaves and forcing themselves to play champions they are utter shit at playing instead of playing what they can play. At the very least in low elo, though.
tl;dr - I hate the meta and call me a hipster if you like but it just makes the game get stale very fast in lower elos.
10Tickler4 votesThere really AREN'T support metas though. There will always be supports who stand out, just for sheer utility, and mages who work best as supports. Look at Zyra. Look at Vel'Koz, Look for fuck's sakes, at Annie! They're all Former midlaners who ended up going bot, and only rarely ever coming back up from it, unless their kits (Annie) were given a serious band-aid.
Provengreil15 votesAny "support" that claims to be his ADC's "bitch" is at least 2 seasons behind. Alistar, Taric, Leona, Thresh, Annie, Blitzcrank, Bard, Nautilus(yes, really), Maokai(yep him too), Rakan, Zilean, Lux, Nami, Tahm Kench, and Zyra all can be taken in support roles and can create plays out of thin air with appropriate play, to include roaming plays.
If you PICK a babysitter, you'll BE a babysitter.
The Deckowner11 votesI am not just talking about support, top and jungle are mostly just secondary supports now a day.
DuskDaUmbreon5 votesJungle's always been a kind of support for the team. That's basically how the role's designed. With the rare exception of the few actual carry junglers (basically just Kindred, as far as I'm aware), every single one's job has to been to get the team fed and winning.
If you're only playing as a second support for the ADC as the toplaner, you're doing it wrong. Or you're only playing champions that are glorified supports. Seriously, if you're only playing Shen, who is basically a solo lane support, you have no right to bitch about being a second support.
I mean, you have Rumble, Gnar, and Jayce, all of whom are meta, and none of whom are even close to being supports. Cho'gath is also meta at all tiers, and only bought Stoneplate because of its stupid synergy with his ultimate, and he doesn't even buy it anymore. You have Garen, Nasus, Kled, Renekton, and Fiora, who are all viable at most tiers, Yasuo's also an option, fuck, even Mordekaiser is a decent pick. You even have motherfucking Teemo viable in Bronze-Gold. And then there's Darius, Mundo, Camille, and Gangplank, who are all also viable at low tier...
...And, guess what? None of them buy any support items, with the possible exception of Stoneplate or Frozen Heart.
Snowplosion4 votesA jungler supports literally the entire team one way or another. But if you are playing Renekton top I don't think you are the ADC's bitch.
Kaeblen1 votesA jungler supports literally the entire team one way or another.
Please! Make it So!!!!
Acheron163 votesAny "support" that claims to be his ADC's "bitch" is at least 2 seasons behind. Alistar, Taric, Leona, Thresh, Annie, Blitzcrank, Bard, Nautilus(yes, really), Maokai(yep him too), Rakan, Zilean, Lux, Nami, Tahm Kench, and Zyra all can be taken in support roles and can create plays out of thin air with appropriate play, to include roaming plays.
If you PICK a babysitter, you'll BE a babysitter.
Very true. Too many times I've seen people complain about support being boring, yet, when I ask them what support they pick they answer shit like Soraka and Janna.
If you pick a passive support, then OF COURSE you're going to be leashed to your ADC. If you pick a boring healer/shielder support then of course you're going to find it boring.
ForeverLaxx1 votesProblem is when you pick the "playmaking" support, your lane partner never follows up and you end being a terrible babysitter because you've died twice while they chose to farm, despite the fact you explained to them the first time that when you (the support) go in, they need to follow or it won't work. Back when I still played on Summoner's Rift (I haven't since Aram was released) I tended to prefer the Leona, Nautilus, Thresh, and during his release Jarvan support picks. It only works if the carry you're with is on board.
I can CC the entire botlane for a combined 10 seconds and it still wouldn't be enough to drag the carry over and pick them off if there's even a single hint that they'll take one auto-attack's worth of damage. Hell, I distinctly remember a single instance where I was Leona support with a Corki and he would never follow an engage and complained the entire game. At the time, Corki was pretty decent and his Gatling has always been strong with Leona's passive. It was a free lane against Sona and Trist, and he let them have it anyway.
Most support players see themselves as the "ADC's bitch" because of this. They either pick the babysitter or feed the enemy a kill or two before giving up engaging the lane to... be a babysitter that's worse at it than a dedicated one.
LexLutheran8713 votesThen don't, pick a pick support and roam when able.
No one can dictate to you play style, if you decide to shackle yourself with soraka or Sona then yeah, that's the game you will have to play. Try taric, thresh, blitz (gag), bard, allistar, or any Deeps mage support and you will find the ADC chains have magically vanished.
łnśane10 votesWhy people downvoted you idk....
What he said is correct you don't want to be an "adc bitch" play tank or aggressive supports. Hell you can actually roam with passive supports as well. No need to complain that you're an "adc bitch" No one said you need to be one. It's when you completely ignore the adc and make them 2v1 bot lane the whole laning phase where you fucked up.
Athenes Lulu2 votesYou can be an enchanter and don't have to """"shackle"""" yourself to anyone either.
ForeverLaxx1 votesUnless you play counterjungle Nunu, of course. Then you just get banned.
Karn Bishop10 votesYeah why can't there be a support designed to follow around and assist the jungler? put wards where i need them to control objectives, speed buffs to help me gank faster and combo slows to help me keep on my target, then make a support designed for ap champions that gives zero benefits to an ad champion ect ect.
Provengreil5 voteslikely because a good 80% of the ADC players would get their arses handed to them in a 2v1 with constant dive threat from a half-decent enemy support. your jungler would have to carry hard enough to fight a fed botlane with no botlane.
PB4UAME1 votesOr, and I know this may blow your mind, you don't send an ADC bot lane for once in 6 years?
JackMcSnipeyz5 votesNo matter who you put there he will get dived on cause it will still be a 2v1 lane. Supports can and should roam but not whenever they feel like ut, there's a time and place to roam and it's not random.
OHminus3 votes
solo bot works well enough imo. More often than not, when placing turrets under your own turret, you farm decently enough, and nobody can really dive.
JackMcSnipeyz3 votesYea sure very specific champs work, im talking about classes, your average mage would get destroyed almost as hard as an adc, only tanks can somewhat maybe survive, but they sure as hell wont farm
PB4UAME1 votesI don't get how we have a meta of 2 vs 1 lanes on both sides for literally the majority of competitive League, and yet people think 2 vs 1 lanes don't work. It's a trade-off, a strategic gamble. Y'know, a bit of depth in the macro sense.
JackMcSnipeyz3 votesYou said it in your own comment - competetive. It has nothing to do with your average player, you cant coordinate 4 randoms to make decisions game by game.
Provengreil3 votesI speak of reality. You try getting a team to shift their entire understanding of the game in 35 seconds before a champ is picked.
PB4UAME3 votesI speak of reality.
Sigh, but you don't. You're strawmanning, and committing fallacies of composition.
Firstly, this is predicated upon the release of a support specifically designed to follow the jungle, as per the comment you originally replied to. Second, you realize then, that this would be accompanied by communal understanding (at least vaguely) of this champion, what they do, and their intended playstyle prior to this hypothetical champ select. Third, there is always the option of going in as a pre-made, which RIOT themselves heavily encourage when one is attempting to make uncommon strategic choices at a macro level. This option would allow you plenty of time to discuss the strategy, work around it, and pick around it, as well as opening the door for additional levels of ingame communication. Truly the best way to go about it.
Kaeblen2 votes[slayer-jinx-unamused]
ever heard of 
?
how about 
?
?
not that you're going to bother listening to me... [sg-lulu]
Kaeblen1 votesit would probably incentive having a mage bot lane, and using Lucian/Quin/Varus Mid. We really don't need to have adc+support bot lane every game.
Smug Shaco Main2 votes[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vmak1hmU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-01T06:46:57.275+0000)
Yeah why can't there be a support designed to follow around and assist the jungler? put wards where i need them to control objectives, speed buffs to help me gank faster and combo slows to help me keep on my target, then make a support designed for ap champions that gives zero benefits to an ad champion ect ect.
Athenes Lulu5 votesI've mained support since the ward bot ages in season 3 and I've never felt """""""shackled"""""""" to any single teammate.
We actually have so much freedom to support whoever the hell we want, and we can even be alone and get out alive upon getting caught. These little shits called "ADCs" can't.
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
Mizaya3 votesAll self-reliant ADCs have been moved out of the bot lane and to other roles. Now, only hypercarries are left, and to me those champs are no fun at all to play. So, this is the result. You don't have fun, I don't have fun :).
Kaeblen1 votesfunny thing.
That means the field is ripe for there to be some non-adc bot lanes, and still have an adc on team.
Why is nobody doing this.
when your3 votesit's all about your thinking
Azazel Aerternum3 votesWe're more or less in the most balanced meta I think we've ever honestly had. Supports can peel for ADCs reasonably well, buff the team well, and heal well.
Tanks are reasonably tanky for once.
Bruisers/Fighters are capable of killing ADC's, without being too overbearing, allowing personal skill and teamwork to determine the outcome of the fights.
Assassins aren't faceroll instant win anymore, supports will peel them off and keep the ADC healthy without proper coordination in place.
Mages, despite being a bit lackluster in build variations, are still strong.
ADC's are extremely powerful, but very reliant on skill, proper positioning, and teamwork in order to win. They can 1v1 assassins, but only if they play it right. The same goes for the assassins against them, it's a double edged sword for both sides. I'd like to see a bit more variation available for ADC's in build options as well. We only really got one set up per 'type' of ADC, or for each ADC in question.
Example for ADC build rigidity, you build big AD item (BF Sword, Pick, Double Longswords if you're poor), grab attackspeed berserkers or zeal, berserkers if getting rekt by Thresh/Blitz/Morg, or getting camped, and then go into IE / ER. IE on say Cait, ER on Xayah. Then you typically rush out attackspeed crit item, and on most ADC's of this category, take IE/ER depending on what you didn't take after the attackspeed crit item. On Cait you take IE - > Shiv/RFC - > RFC/Shiv. No real variation available for optimization of damage. Hurricane would be good but you won't live long enough to benefit off the increased availability of headshots (teamfights are very short), and building only Hurricane + RFC is bad b/c of RFC's improved passive, you generally want Shiv + RFC for massively improved damage with a headshot to chunk people out to half before a fight. -Obviously there are attackspeed ADC's like Kog that are the exception; and some champions have different optimization paths, like Xayah typically builds with a focus on attackspeed to gain massive increased damage via her E's return damage. While builds from Champ to Champ may vary, consistent builds on the characters themselves do not.
AP it's kinda similar, rush out a Morello every single AP champ minus non-mana users have to.
For non-mana users it typically looks something like Hextech gunblade/lichbane, or liandrys/rylais. With a Rabbadons/Voidstaff included somewhere in the build as well.
Game doesn't revolve around one role, all roles are equally valuable. A good tank can frontline to soak up tons of damage, hard engage or prevent the enemy from doing so, and are extremely annoying to deal with. Traditional healing supports are great at sustaining the team, peeling, and using CC to catch people out. Mages tend to have greater range, good waveclear, and are comparable to ADC's in damage output. Fighters/Bruisers can slaughter tanks, and if they are reasonably good, can defeat any other role. Assassins can wipe out squishies in the blink of an eye. And marksman are great at siege, teamfight well, and maintain high power due to their innate weakness of being vulnerable to just about anything.
The Deckowner1 votesADC's are extremely powerful, but very reliant on
skill, proper positioning, and teamworkan ardent support in order to win.
FTFY
GrievousFetus1 votesThe most balanced meta we've ever had is a meta where the winner of the game is whichever team's Ardent support finishes Ardent first.
okay.
Travas2 votesBut that's the whole point you are giving another player your share of the farm and protect him so he can be the alpha carry of the team but your job doesn't stop there as support you should keep track of players summoners/ on higher elo supports also try to keep track of the enemy junglers movements around the map and ping when the gank is coming also you manage the vision game the most and it is preferred to shot call as support due to the fact you don't focus on farming instead you have your eyes on the enemy team and their position.Ofc supports don't do all of this in soloQ especially bellow diamond supports players just manage vision mostly and peel for adc ofc none stops you for roaming mid at the right moment don't let your adc get caught and die 1v2 while you are mid (trust me it happens a lot even if you tell me def im going mid)
ViresIntus722 votesI don't believe it was Riot's doing? Im pretty sure the meta and the community ended up making that a thing since back in S2 it was more efficient and powerful to feed one of the laners in the bot lane and offer supports to you know assist.
Also, just don't play support....
DragonShea2 votes#YES!!!
Even supports are getting sick of ADC's
KrazyIvanUSA1 votesYes, I like to play Bard, but too often the ADC bitches that I leave lane and that I need to help. They don't seem to understand that support does not equal being their servant.
dominusx1 votesBecause riot likes to promote the most braindead stuff because the community is silver/gold. How else you gonna be braindead if you dont play a 3 input only champ and some tank that has stupid base dmg to deal with the 3 input champ before it scales.