Despite Rito's effort to make competetive games short and exciting

The Deckowner·Jan 23, 2017·194 votes·5,918 views

LCS games still almost always goes over 30 minute without a lot of action. Very often goes to 40-50 minutes.

Meanwhile casual solo queue has became 10 minute open mid fiesta.

GJ RITO

101 Comments

EndlessSorcererJan 23, 201782 votes

Professional players tend to opt for the safer and reliable option whenever it is available.

Considering how badly games can snowball at the moment, they are probably just focusing on not giving their opponents a lead rather than gaining one for themselves.

The harder games snowball, the more passively people will play.

The DeckownerJan 23, 201779 votes

which is why Rito should stop trying to make the game more snowbally, because coordinated professional teams will always choose to play conservatively and are able to drag games out. Which can't be done by uncoordinated solo queue teams with huge skillgaps and no voice communication.

KorZodJan 23, 2017113 votes

i actually think because of Riot making it more snowbally, pro teams are even more likely to play conservative. Taking a risk a season or two ago and screwing up was bad because you gave away gold, but usually that was it. Now if you give away a kill in lane, you lose tower, drag, that side of your jungle, your social security number, your 3 year old daughter, and extra legroom seat on the plane.

EndlessSorcererJan 23, 20173 votes

and extra legroom seat on the plane

Goddamnit, I need that room.

kile147Jan 23, 201750 votes

and extra legroom seat on the plane.

Oh god, the horror

Velzard of KozJan 23, 201734 votes

If they want to take my daughter, fine. But extra legroom seat on the plane? NEVER!

IcyPepperJan 24, 20174 votes

I'll give you an entire flock of sheep.

SkiasJan 23, 20177 votes

{quoted}

i actually think because of Riot making it more snowbally, pro teams are even more likely to play conservative. Taking a risk a season or two ago and screwing up was bad because you gave away gold, but usually that was it. Now if you give away a kill in lane, you lose tower, drag, that side of your jungle, your social security number, your 3 year old daughter, and extra legroom seat on the plane.

Yeah, I agree. When games can end on a single mistake, extreme conservation is the best path. Teams used to have to make multiple good plays to finish a team off.

NGNL AsianJan 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i actually think because of Riot making it more snowbally, pro teams are even more likely to play conservative. Taking a risk a season or two ago and screwing up was bad because you gave away gold, but usually that was it. Now if you give away a kill in lane, you lose tower, drag, that side of your jungle, your social security number, your 3 year old daughter, and extra legroom seat on the plane.

That does make sense but rn if bot lane falls behind it's hard to win again unless the other bot lane makes a mistake. And risk taking is what made surprising outplays half the time

Covert Ops GnarJan 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Professional players tend to opt for the safer and reliable option whenever it is available.

Considering how badly games can snowball at the moment, they are probably just focusing on not giving their opponents a lead rather than gaining one for themselves.

The harder games snowball, the more passively people will play.

I always pick the safer reliable choice.

Doesnt work in solo queue (anymore). Promoted from G5 to D5, then demoted to P5. Every other game is int feeders, trolls, 'open mids' enemy has a snowbally champ like Khazix and gets 6 kills that turns into 16 Half my games end before 20 minutes

The only people that benefit from this are the boosters who play cheesy snowbally champs like Khazix Graves Nocturne Hecarim

Game is shit right now.

TheSingularityJan 23, 201710 votes

It's the same case with vision. Sight wards led to too passive a play style, so they remove them and impliment ward caps. Then what do you know? Champions like rek'sai, nidalee, gragas and elise become meta due to their ability to grant vision with spells while sightstone becomes a common buy on most junglers (in pro play).

Riot tried to force their ideal gameplay down pro's throats and they were like "awe hell no" and shoved their own solution down riots throats. No matter what riot does, pro's will always counter it.

EG Remove sightstone, control ward, and all vision granting spells from the game. Champions like mundo and nid (as they make sound when their q's hit people) become meta as they can ace check bushes safely.

ParcevalJan 24, 20173 votes

Vision is a HUGE metastatic problem in the game right now.

I've been saying this since all the support changes.

Supports need to be able to grant and control WAY MORE vision.

Three ward caps and single control ward for supports is ridiculous. Especially because the only way to maintain control wards late game is to NOT get a final item. This is just stupid.

Vision needs a massive overhaul. It would fix a LOT of the snowball issue. Because, honestly, right now, with how bad vision is, if my team is winning I can actually DELAY sightstone to force a win down their throats.

Because I know their vision is shit too.

AnidanJan 25, 20171 votes

I like how you could realistically point out a ton of potential issues League has and could pursue fixing, and none of them would be wrong - they would just require different development paths for them to follow for those potential issues to be fixed.

List of things that come to mind: vision, damage, mobility, lack of good varied itemization, stat check champions, champions that manage to be useful even when purposely kept down (yes, I have seen people bring that one up), and more I've forgotten. No game is perfect.

OrangesilkJan 23, 201735 votes

I mean, look at Heroes of the Storm.

Competitive matches are interesting, there's a lot of fighting, damage rotation and stuff going on. This is achieved in two ways: First, the amount of damage isn't quite as insane as in LoL, it takes more than a single rotation to pop a squishy. With longer fights going on, healers are a viable class, damage rotation is a thing that happen, the game doesn't boil down to reflexes and there is a lot of strategy going on.

Second, the penalties for dying are actually kinda soft, it isn't a brutal snowbally thing. On the other hand, the penalties for losing objectives can be quite harsh and if they pile up they quickly end the game. This means that players are encouraged to fight objectives, and dying trying to defend an objective isn't such a terrible thing compared to losing it by itself.

This leads to a competitive environment with lots of strategy, lots of action and a casual environment that is very fun to play in. Of course, this has its drawbacks. (Balance is a thin line with no gold around, because when a kit is overtuned, it becomes brutal), but overall feels better to watch.

It all boils down to unnecessary snowball potential and damage creep really.

NickssaaJan 23, 201717 votes

I agree, but Heroes of the Storm has a lot of other problems that ruin the competitive side, mainly being that Heroes is even more snowbally that league, and the matches are way too short. I think that longer matches are better than shorter matches as long as there is a lot of action, rather than having 0 action like league does.

A DoorknobJan 24, 20172 votes

Hots has done everything Riot wants to do: Make games shorter; make games more objective focus; make champs more balanced and so games feels more satisfying even if you lose; every champ has their own identity; Game is more team focused; etc. The only real issue with Hots is that it isn't as fun as LoL. I believe as more champion are unlocked the game will become funner and more entertaining.

I feel the best part of Hots thought is the fact that your team is forced to come together as a team if you want to win. That solo hard carry because they pushed 1 button on keyboard just doesn't exist in Hots.

AtanchanJan 24, 20175 votes

Frankly, I think the biggest issue with HotS's funness is that a. for the most part, most of their champions are about as interesting as the League champions from back when Riot was making 'em on a very short timescale, and b. they feel incredibly bad. A lot of their animations are very light-feeling at best and weightless at worse, and their SFX usually isn't any better. Which actually makes everything feel tankier than it actually is, because even if you take out over half someone's health in a single rotation, it feels more like you only dealt 10%.

When I played it, I generally did not realize I was actually killing anyone as a DPS character, not until the death effect suddenly pops out and I go "oh huh I guess that's it then."

Darf RakkiJan 24, 20173 votes

Heroes is boring as fuck to watch. There's a reason their esports events have a much lower viewership than league.

The snowball mechanic in League is one reason its more fun to watch. HotS exp share is like forced communism. BUT I think League could take some elements away from Heroes because snowballing, while it does keep League more interesting, is out of control right now.

Maybe team-wide exp share for minions only, and localized exp for kills/assists.

AninLegions777Jan 24, 20172 votes

It has a much lower viewership cos League is more established.

Vengeful NewbJan 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I mean, look at Heroes of the Storm.

Competitive matches are interesting, there's a lot of fighting, damage rotation and stuff going on

Heroes of the Storm is boring and a lot more dumbed down than League of Legends. That is part of the reason I stopped playing it.(other part is that the champions are alot less interesting) There are hardly any tactics or thought involved. Anyway I'd leave it at that. IMO its another MOBA but it doesn't come close to LoL

sobi999Jan 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I mean, look at Heroes of the Storm.

Competitive matches are interesting, there's a lot of fighting, damage rotation and stuff going on. This is achieved in two ways: First, the amount of damage isn't quite as insane as in LoL, it takes more than a single rotation to pop a squishy. With longer fights going on, healers are a viable class, damage rotation is a thing that happen, the game doesn't boil down to reflexes and there is a lot of strategy going on.

Second, the penalties for dying are actually kinda soft, it isn't a brutal snowbally thing. On the other hand, the penalties for losing objectives can be quite harsh and if they pile up they quickly end the game. This means that players are encouraged to fight objectives, and dying trying to defend an objective isn't such a terrible thing compared to losing it by itself.

This leads to a competitive environment with lots of strategy, lots of action and a casual environment that is very fun to play in. Of course, this has its drawbacks. (Balance is a thin line with no gold around, because when a kit is overtuned, it becomes brutal), but overall feels better to watch.

It all boils down to unnecessary snowball potential and damage creep really.

I actually want to try heroes of the storm now. I am not having a good experience with LOL at the moment.

ZT XperimentorJan 23, 201714 votes

As predicted, their obsession with their precious esports has been ruining the game.

Zone of EndlessJan 24, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8wt8uYK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-01-23T18:25:05.172+0000)

As predicted, their obsession with their precious esports has been ruining the game.

They didn't learn from Blizzard apparently.

SuddenAntagonistJan 23, 201711 votes

This is because of how risky it is to play the same way. Giving up 1 or 2 kills used to mean you were behind a little, but still relevant. Now it's like, "guess I'll just give up." There have been a few matches in which it was over by 25 minutes because of just how oppressive one side became. Those are the matches Riot wants, but not the ones they're going to get if pros keep playing the safe game. Honestly, that's boring though. I enjoy the longer matches with some semblance of counter-play. One-sided stomps don't teach you anything.

Leon EtoileJan 24, 20172 votes

It's not the kills that put you drastically behind; it is the first turret gold.

There's a stat floating around that like 73% win rate for first turret gold.

SH AzykanJan 24, 20175 votes

and it was 70% winrate for whichever team got first tower before, yeah it went up by 3% but thats really not a huge difference

DivewingJan 23, 201710 votes

Funny how when you remove most means of vision placement, the pros play super passive.

Whoda thunk it

SkiasJan 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Funny how when you remove most means of vision placement, the pros play super passive.

Whoda thunk it

Less vision and more burst makes the jungle a deathtrap.

LiofaJan 23, 201710 votes

It's cause Riot refuses to recognize that by trying to shorten game length through early game snowball they indirectly incentivize risk aversion and turtling.

The DeckownerJan 23, 20173 votes

exactly.

Leon EtoileJan 24, 20172 votes

I'm fine with first turret gold, the issue is it is too much. Forget what team it was (NA LCS) but they were down 0-3 kills and gold. Get first turret then magically ahead... was like wtf did I just see.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 23, 20176 votes

its funny. its really funny because when games were long in solo Q. while games were just as long in pro play as they are now. you used to see 2-3 team fights in the span if 6-7 minutes. now you see 2-3 team fights. in a whole game. sometimes even 1 team fight. sometimes fuck. just 0. towers give too much gold. they'd rather rotate and take them,

basically S5 was way better than S6/7 games that are decided in 8 minutes

KudrovJan 23, 20174 votes

its been 7 years and the game is becoming more and more boring and awful every single year .... if i was riot CEO i would have been firing so much peoples already.

3TWarriorJan 23, 20173 votes

that's the thing with competitive players...they get paid to win, not have fun and definitely not to try out keyboard rolling combos in an uncertain situation

VelasanJan 23, 20173 votes

In general all higher elo games work that way. You can't punish your opponents mistakes as much so you do measured exchanges as much as possible looking for openings to capitalize on that one tiny mistake they do make to put the game in your favor.

There are a lot of other games that work this way, it's just more marked in LCS where you watch multiple teams repeat the process.

OlafRagnarsonJan 24, 20173 votes

Another important post that won't see a Rioter response. Good job Riot, we can tell you care!

The DeckownerJan 24, 20171 votes

ritoers only reply to weird mechanic interaction or clarity bug posts on the board.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 24, 20172 votes

To be fair why would they reply here? They have nothing to change anyone's mind yet they clearly don't want to change theirs. It would be a waste of time to post here, and they'd just attract a shit ton of downvotes and hate.

WngNutJan 24, 20173 votes

In their efforts to make it games short and exciting, they've only really succeeded in making mistakes more punishing (didn't ward tri bush/ didn't keep lane pushed up enough? Say goodbye to two/three team members, bot tower, first tower blood, and dragon). I don't know how they thought it would make LCS more exciting when they have to play extremely safe and cautious because one mistake could cost the game. How are you suppose to see high risk/high reward plays when those plays turned into gain an advantage or lose the game situations. You simply can't take a game that's balanced around 40-50 minute games and expect them to still be healthy when you lowered the average game time for bronze to 35-37 minutes, the elo that doesn't know how to close a game is still doing so in less time than most of the game is balanced around. This is why you have things like Ziggs bot lane and most ADC's being considered weak, because you have an entire class built around late game, in a game that is trying to get rid of late game.

Yordle XayahJan 23, 20172 votes

[deleted]

The DeckownerJan 23, 201712 votes

You don't even understand the point of the post. I wan't even comparing solo queue and competetive games, I am just pointing out that those changes that were made to shorten competetive games had no effect on competetive play but ruined solo queue game quality.

AirKingNeoJan 24, 20172 votes

??? http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-7-1-infographics

Average game time is 30-35 minutes. Where is this GG@10 ff at 20 stomp that is supposedly happening all the time?

The DeckownerJan 24, 20174 votes

because according to the website you are using, 42% of the total player population is bronze players who play league like a deathmatch.

SkiasJan 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

??? http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-7-1-infographics

Average game time is 30-35 minutes. Where is this GG@10 ff at 20 stomp that is supposedly happening all the time?

Players are opening mid. The game is effectively over at 20m or sooner. Generally at turret fb.

AirKingNeoJan 24, 20171 votes

So then why is game end time average 30-35 and not 15-20?

SkiasJan 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So then why is game end time average 30-35 and not 15-20?

Because of good deal of people wont surrender even if you are 8-30.

SweedishGunnerJan 24, 20171 votes

I will say that champion diversity is kinda okay at the moment. There's a few exciting picks. I think that's the 10 ban system coming in though.

Leon EtoileJan 24, 20175 votes

It's not diversity when they are getting up to 6 bans in a lane. Diversity doesn't come from removing things despite SJW and feminazis across the world thinking it does.

Diversity is about as much stuff being viable as possible.

top=Maokai and whatever is played into him JG= rengo banned; kha/lee Mid= Syndra and Ryze p/b, Cassio and Ori ADC= Ashe, Jhin and Varus depending on bans Supp= Zyra, MF, Malz

SkiasJan 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leon Etoile,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8wt8uYK,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2017-01-24T02:44:08.840+0000)

It's not diversity when they are getting up to 6 bans in a lane. Diversity doesn't come from removing things despite SJW and feminazis across the world thinking it does.

Diversity is about as much stuff being viable as possible.

top=Maokai and whatever is played into him JG= rengo banned; kha/lee Mid= Syndra and Ryze p/b, Cassio and Ori ADC= Ashe, Jhin and Varus depending on bans Supp= Zyra, MF, Malz

What does feminism have to do with anything? Wtf?