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Ashe is probably the most well balanced marksman, and is underappreciated for that.

ReshiKillim··170 votes·8,855 views

Annoying as she can be, can we appreciate what's in her kit and what's not?

  • Her damage output is completely unaffected by RNG thanks to her passive.

  • She can't abuse Rapidfire cannon and Stattik Shiv to chunk enemies with a big crit at a distance that used to be exclusive to mages.

  • Her ability to kite enemies isn't based around being highly mobile like a number of others, but anti--mobility instead.

  • She does not have any speed boosts, dashes, blinks, heals, shields, range extensions, stealth, or ability cooldown resets/reductions.

  • No 3/4/5 hit effects.

  • Does not abuse on hit effect items.

  • Her damage is only amplified against targets that she herself has slowed, so she doesn't have abusive synnergy.

  • She has pure flat damage in her kit, no form of % HP damage.

  • Can be built to excel at shredding tankier enemies, but at the cost of some of her damage to squishier targets, instead of just being better at killing both like many other marksmen.

  • You can judge her damage output potential much more accurately than any other marksman in the game, regardless of which team you're on.

  • Generally not oppressive to play against.

  • Does not burst assassins to death before they can get in range.

  • Her damage scales in a very straightforward and fair manner, which does not allow her to hypersnowball like some other marksmen do.

  • She doesn't shred turrets.

She's the best example of a marksman who fits the "High sustained DPS" design paradigm, instead of burst per second, as is common with the current majority of marksmen.

184 Comments

Dasdi96129 votes

Which is why she is a terrible choice in solo queue. Thats the unfortunate fact, the only way to succeed in solo queue is to pick a burst per second adc.

Kaìju17 votes

Agreed, I dropped her for MF and have been doing far better. It feels really bad because I wanna like her but just auto tilt picking her.

Z3Sleeper8 votes

Her entire niche is her extreme 100% uptime slow and her ult initiation.

The problem is that this niche is essentially filled by so many other champions and the slow portion isn't very effective vs many champions as well (can't kite someone who is already on top of you).

So that combined with not having any sort of synergy (like Kalista Ult, Lucian/Braum, etc.) and having no mobility just puts her at the bottom of the tier list.

Terozu3 votes

Dont forget her vision providance.

Mizaya2 votes

Would you consider Ezreal burst per second? I honestly think he's one of the best you can pick, if you are good at him (which most people aren't by any means).

Romans VI XXIII6 votes

hes more of an AD caster rather than a marksman.

Ratpie43 votes

I think she is solid, it is more of other ADCs being overtuned. She really can do well vs other mid to low tier adcs, but the hypercarries just ruin her.

Barcid14 votes

Ashe actually is a hypercarry herself. She has the most reliable damage output of any AD champion while bringing some of the best utility in the game with her on-hit slow that scales with her crit strength. A well-guarded Ashe basically meant ruin for any enemy team whenever she was meta because reaching her usually meant you had to eat so many shots to the face from her to even reach her to begin with, and this is ignoring that her team is also benefiting from the eternal slows. This is in addition to also being the only ADC with a meaningful stun in her kit.

The thing is that all other hypercarries have morphed into these disgusting single-item pub-stomp champs. Ashe has always taken time to warm up (ha, get it? 'Cause she's cold?) and is the only ADC to stay consistent to her nature - she still needs items, while other ADC's can basically pick up IE and they're set to go. I actually cringe to see anyone besides maybe Vayne (and even then, still) pick up Rapidfire or Statikk first item over IE just because I know they're going to be little more than a pea-shooter for the next 8 minutes or so, not to mention no rune but lethal tempo scales off of attack speed - so they're losing damage on two different fronts. But for Ashe, first rushing IE means that her Q doesn't stack quickly, and first rushing another item means she still doesn't do much damage.

What a state the game's in when needing two items versus just one basically dooms you to shit-tier.

Terozu11 votes

Ashe is a utility Marksmen. Not a hypercarry.

Ifneth3 votes

She’s both. Her Q is a 50% DPS steroid. She can duel Gangplank in the late game.

Magearna3 votes

Unfortunately having a DPS steroid does not make you a hypercarry. The definition of a hypercarry is a champion who has a weak to normal early and mid game, but puts out overly tremendous amounts of damage in the late game (by sheer DPS or burst). While Ashe scales well throughout all stages of the game, she doesn't fit this definition.

PB4UAME2 votes

You either haven't looked at her stat growth per level, and haven't actually read the fact the she scales to 260% AD on each auto with an IE and her passive, and also haven't looked at full build, or 4 item+ DPS calculation between marksmen, or you are deliberately lying.

Ashe has the hardest flat damage scaling of any marksman, and has the best base stats at 18, with only Draven and I believe Corki having higher AD, and no champion even coming close to her AS per level, and base attack speed at 18, on top of 600 range, and a free perma slow.

She's BEEN a hyper carry in League since day 1. It used to be purely through stat growth and utility, but since her rework she also has the damage steroid to match, while maintaining the highest stat growth per level, and her utility to boot.

flibitydoo3 votes

she has not been since day 1

day 1 her Q read "toggle to drain your mana and slow for a less than 30% amount on each auto" Her only "steroid" to be considered before her rework was her W which had AD scaling. That's it. no other part of her kit dealt damage or enhanced it beyond her ult. And her joke of a passive "ranger's focus" which gave her first auto attack in the game a guaranteed crit (and then never got used again due to it reseting whenever she attacked).

saying she's a hyper carry by utility is the stupidest phrase I've ever heard; by that logic nautilus and gragas are hypercarries. They're not. Carrying the game is the part where you've dealt the most damage in post game. that's all that matters. Don't try to move the goal posts with your own farce definitions.

Tails90166 votes

Not a hypercarry.

260% damage on every auto would like to have a word.

Who am I kidding. Her Q steroid needs her to attack 4 times before she get's it, and most ADC's would have bursted her with their steroids before Ashe get's 4 autos.

(Steroids include Draven Q, Caitlyn passive, Xayah everything passive/W)

(If this is a double post, blame my internet)

Kaìju30 votes

Ashe player here with nearly one million mastery, you aren't wrong.

At the same time playing her in solo queue feels fucking terrible. She's very well balanced and suffers for it in low elo games. I've recently swapped to MF as a default pick just because Ashe feels so bad to play in this environment of high damage everything and high mobility everything. I wish she was more fun but holy fuck she just feels bad in low elo. She's fine in pro play but feels like shit in Silver.

An Angry Man1 votes

How do you feel about comet/ER ashe, with scorch? i feel like i can win lane pretty easily with the poke + POM to spam spells

Kaìju1 votes

As others have said, sure you win lane phase but your damage plummets. You would have to take Ult Hat to stay important as tanks don't take enough damage to make the poke matter and you lack the raw attack speed and on hit damage to really shred through teams. It's an early game focused set up that you would use with a carry support like Brand.

Terozu4 votes

At the same time on the extreme end, she's invaluable at challenger and pro play. The vision she provides, the utility, is just god like at high levels of play.

She's gotten first pro penta of the year like what 3 times now?

Kaìju6 votes

Agreed, but she falls into this trap of being the learner ADC but she's actually pretty punishing for new players and only ever shines in pro and when over tuned.

NemeBro20 votes

Do people really forget what Ashe is like when she's meta?

When Ashe is meta she brings top-tier DPS and shredding power with her Q alongside nearly unrivaled utility in class.

She's not the most obnoxious ADC IMO, that would be Tristana, but she's also not even nearly fun to play against.

oortoomeebreesuu13 votes

{quoted}

Do people really forget what Ashe is like when she's meta?

When Ashe is meta she brings top-tier DPS and shredding power with her Q alongside nearly unrivaled utility in class.

She's not the most obnoxious ADC IMO, that would be Tristana, but she's also not even nearly fun to play against.

we literally only see her picked into Cait, who clearly holds the obnoxious title

AFilthyCaitMain14 votes

^

DMate195 votes

when the actual comment gets downvotes but the dude who posts "^" gets upvotes

Thefrostyviking6 votes

Probably because Ashe is the marksman with the second highest base range after Cait, it helps you avoid Caits AA harass and Ashe ulti lets you actually engage on the cait.

Terozu1 votes

Second? Try 5th. It goes kog w level 4, Jinx q past level 3, Caitlynn, Tristana, Ashe.

Herlgar9 votes

{quoted} second highest**_ base_ **range after Cait

Terozu2 votes

Thanks missed the word mb.

Elohaven12 votes

You say this but when Ashe becomes meta - there'll be a thread about how absurd she is. Her kit is not the most "well-balanced", it's just the least overtuned. Unlike other ADCs, she hasn't gotten much attention and has faced indirect nerfs creeping up. The issue is many champions, not just ADCs, are overtuned with numbers. Thus, Ashe's weaknesses are much more exposed since she hasn't gotten attention.

You thought Xayah+Rakan was bad as a meta? How about Leona+Ashe? How about buffing Ashe's numbers so he can compete making it so you can never walk up to her? How about infinite peel and CC and an Ashe just 50 units away from you doing 1000 DPS as a tank?

Is Ashe bad right now? Yes. But is she fun to play against and a symbol of balance - no.

(BTW, her range, Q, and ult are supposed to allow her to be oppressive in lane but after a couple of seasons, her numbers were never adjusted)

Somebody Love Me4 votes

Whenever Ashe is meta, she's not complained about as much.

If Ashe becomes meta again, it'll depend how. If it's by damage buffs like Jhin was, then maybe she'll be complained about.

Ezreal became meta again thanks to klepto. But people hated him because all the buffs they shoved into him during his time out of the ADC meta began to surface. He did too much damage. No one likes when Ez is meta through damage. Meanwhile, the other times Ezreal was meta as an ADC (save for maybe the beginning of the blue build thing), nobody really complained.

Ezreal is fine being meta if he's picked for his safety and stuff like that.

Ashe is fine being meta when picked for her utility.

Caitlyn is fine being meta when picked for her safe lane and siege potential.

The problem lies when marksmen are picked over others just because they 3 shot you better than others do, or just because they abuse certain items.

Hypercarries were complained about because of their insane damage. The problem with them was that they scaled the hardest of any champ, which has been true for years, but at the same time, they scaled faster than any champ because their items were made so cheap. They had no weak point in the game, especially since their lane phases have been made much safer.javascript:;

Thefrostyviking1 votes

if you think Ashe+leona was bad then you have never met Draven+Leona.

How about a massive range stun followed by massive chunks of damage that pretty much instakills squishies post a BF sword?

That is my greatest trauma ever playing botlane, constant leo ults into chainstun with Draven chunking away.

Elohaven1 votes

Draven's advantage back then was only early game dominance. As long as you didn't feed and froze the wave near your tower, you were safe but perhaps behind 20 CS. Draven is horrid in teamfights due to the nature of his kit and his axes stalling DPS. Plus, one CC basically forces him to be usless for about 8 seconds if he loses both axes mid-game.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Never said that it was the best combo possible, it's just one of the pairings with the highest kill potential that i know off for laning....as far as marksman+support go.

ViciousSummoner6 votes

She was good at one point, but they toned her down. After a while the meta shifted because of items, builds, and other adc's getting buffed. She still is good, but there are just better champs at the moment.

Onotori5 votes

{quoted}

Annoying as she can be, can we appreciate what's in her kit and what's not?

  • Does not abuse on hit effect items.

Except hurricane literally breaks when she uses her Q, and it hits everything in range instead of just 2 targets.

  • Can be built to excel at shredding tankier enemies, but at the cost of some of her damage to squishier targets, instead of just being better at killing both like many other marksmen.

Ashe can delete squishies and tanks alike with a very standard build. Don't have to modify it much outside of opting into an LDR / MR.

  • You can judge her damage output potential much more accurately than any other marksman in the game, regardless of which team you're on.

Not really. Her damage multiplies by 5 times when she uses her Q, so you can't accurately gauge her damage until she turns it on -- at which point you're dead anyway.

  • Generally not oppressive to play against.

Yeah I'd argue against that with her W doing what, 100 damage at level 1, and only going up from there, having no CD and minimal mana costs. Plus it's a free hit unless you have a full minion wave.

  • Does not burst assassins to death before they can get in range.

Maybe not Zed. Any other assassin though... yeah they're not touching her.

  • Her damage scales in a very straightforward and fair manner, which does not allow her to hypersnowball like some other marksmen do.

It does, but it scales far too sharply, and leaves her one shotting after building a BF and a Zeal.

  • She doesn't shred turrets.

Without Q, sure.

She's the best example of a marksman who fits the "High sustained DPS" design paradigm, instead of burst per second, as is common with the current majority of marksmen.

She's the best example of how even the "most balanced" or "weakest" ADC is still a god relative to any class that isn't an ADC. She can build lifesteal and drain tank anything (I had a fun forum post talking about a 6-tentacle ult with my fed Illaoi (building mostly damage) and Ashe facetanking it all thanks to lifesteal) while tripling the damage output of anything, even other ADCs, if given more than two seconds to attack you.

Ashe is not balanced. Maybe among ADCs she is, but not in the grander scheme. She shouldn't delete squishies, melt tanks, have a global stun / vision control, unavoidable poke, absurd slows for free and her broken interaction with hurricane. Short of one shotting her... you don't win.

Talentedco8 votes

{quoted}

Except hurricane literally breaks when she uses her Q, and it hits everything in range instead of just 2 targets.

Ashe can delete squishies and tanks alike with a very standard build. Don't have to modify it much outside of opting into an LDR / MR.

Not really. Her damage multiplies by 5 times when she uses her Q, so you can't accurately gauge her damage until she turns it on -- at which point you're dead anyway.

Yeah I'd argue against that with her W doing what, 100 damage at level 1, and only going up from there, having no CD and minimal mana costs. Plus it's a free hit unless you have a full minion wave.

Maybe not Zed. Any other assassin though... yeah they're not touching her.

It does, but it scales far too sharply, and leaves her one shotting after building a BF and a Zeal.

Without Q, sure.

She's the best example of how even the "most balanced" or "weakest" ADC is still a god relative to any class that isn't an ADC. She can build lifesteal and drain tank anything (I had a fun forum post talking about a 6-tentacle ult with my fed Illaoi (building mostly damage) and Ashe facetanking it all thanks to lifesteal) while tripling the damage output of anything, even other ADCs, if given more than two seconds to attack you.

Ashe is not balanced. Maybe among ADCs she is, but not in the grander scheme. She shouldn't delete squishies, melt tanks, have a global stun / vision control, unavoidable poke, absurd slows for free and her broken interaction with hurricane. Short of one shotting her... you don't win.

You are literally silver if you think ashe is busted. LOL. And before you say anything slick i'm posting from smurf where i play aftershock lissandra top and still have positive W/R.

Onotori2 votes

If Ashe is so weak, why is she very commonly picked / banned in LCS? They play for literally nothing but the win. They wouldn't play a weak champ in that kind of mindset.

Talentedco8 votes

{quoted}

If Ashe is so weak, why is she very commonly picked / banned in LCS? They play for literally nothing but the win. They wouldn't play a weak champ in that kind of mindset.

She's team reliant, obviously. Should she be unviable at all levels of play?

Onotori1 votes

So is every ADC, minus bullshit like Vayne, Lucian and Kai'sa.

TeCoolMage3 votes

Solo (can go alone but still better not to) - Vayne, Kai'sa, Quinn, ~Corki, ~Kindred

~2v2 (pick at least 1 person and stick with them) - Twitch, ~Kalista, Lucian, Varus, Xayah, Ezreal

Team reliant (needs to organize with team and ask for an actual group) - Ashe, Sivir, Jhin, Jinx, ~Tristana, ~Caitlyn, Kog'maw, Miss Fortune

More than half the marksmen available don't outright rely on allies to be coordinated. Hardly 'every' ADC

Onotori3 votes

If your allies don't peel for you, and you're not playing Vayne or Kai'sa, you're dead.

Thefrostyviking6 votes

Kai sa and Vayne can both get away with a lot less peel than Ashe ever could.

I know because i have played both those champs to some extent, and a great deal of Ashe.

Thefrostyviking9 votes

Issue is actually that below high plati most marksmen are infact not team reliant, those who are tend to struggle just because of it.

Ashe is one of those, even if she is great with a team around her she will be facing endless misery without at least 2 people sitting on and protecting her.

cocacolalips2 votes

nah, a good ashe that 1) knows how to kite 2) knows how to maintain and abuse her range advantage (600 AA, 1000+ W) has no real counterplay, she runs you down like a bulldozer, 'slowly' but surely and there is nothing you can do about it, permanent slow is a really toxic mechanic that should have been removed from the game a long time ago.

Thefrostyviking7 votes

Except, the majority of champs in this game posses either dashes/speedups/range which pretty much circumvents the only kiting Ashe has.

The only champs she can "bully" are immobile melee, everything else craps on her pretty harshly.

cocacolalips3 votes

you take her R in the face if you dash her as a melee champion, then she kites you again and you die, if you try to flash her R, then she just flashes back and you are still out of range and you still die.

she out ranges most adcs, she also kites them and only fights them on her terms and runs them down after a couple W in the face just the same

your best bet against an ashe is to play a burst champion with tons of dashes, but her R still makes the fight a coin flip, she is perfectly capable of 100-0 while you are stunned.

I've played my fair share of games against diamond ashe players and you have no agency, she has all the cards and you just gotta hope your team is better than hers

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Her stun range in melee is 1 second......you rarely get anywhere with it.

And her ulti is extremely telegraphed, if she tries to ulti when not in melee range you can often dodge it pretty damn easily.

Outranges most marksmen? Base range yes, but her damage is inferior and she cant crit so she is prone to exploding long before she can threaten them, and her DPS is way inferior to others like kog/varus........her slow is also extremely weak for a long time.

10-20% base for 2 seconds per auto, a second auto will tripple the effect for a single second but rapidly decay away instead, so if you get 50-60% tenacity then she will need at least 2,0 attackspeed just to keep her passive on you.

If Ashe was anywhere near as strong as you describe her she wouldnt be a near bottom tier marksman for everyone below high diamond.

Well, and even if she kites you her damage is still low enough that it will rarely be threatening.

cocacolalips2 votes

a good ashe always R you mid dash animation 'before you complete your dash', you are stunned when you complete your dash but the duration is longer since dashes have 600+ range

she doesn't use her R proactively, but reactively (like all melee vs ranged match-up really), whether it is telegraphed or not doesn't matter because she doesn't fish with it, she only use it when it's going to hit, you can only dodge it if you flash after you use your dash, but chances 1) are you are already stunned 2) if not, she simply flashes your flash to reposition and you are still not in range and your dash is on cooldown

let me tell you how an actual duel goes: ashe will poke you with W and AA, again and again until you are at half health, then she will engage and kill you, if you try to fight and engage her before that happens, she will disengage with her W and AA slow or R depending on the match-up and right back to step 1 where she pokes you then kills you.

I didn't say she was strong, I said she was an obnoxious pos, just like frozen mallet, rylais crystal scepter, you can find plenty discussions on the subject and why those items are problematic and why Riot had to rework them multiple times over, you have no agency when you fight her, every choice is a bad choice, you can't engage, you can't disengage, you have no control over the outcome of the lane, she isn't necessarily going to stomp you, but you aren't gonna stomp her either, you just wait and hope your team is doing great elsewhere.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Ashe ulti scales up very slowly in terms of stun duration, i faintly recall it having to travel at least 2000 range units just to reach 2 seconds.

600? Probably between 1,3 to 1,6 given that base is 1.

And your idea of a duel is pretty interesting, "she will poke you with W and AA reptedly until you are low enough to engage"?

This is not a duel, this is damn laning phase post 6 when you have high kill pressure for whatever reason.

A melee like heca will just run in, force her to ulti to try and wait out his E and then he dashes ontop of her and its done.

Skarner? Hello predator, aint no slow big enough to stop that.

The easiest way to deal with Ashe is to have some manner of other long range initiation or just a gapcloser and some movespeed/range as seen by the fact that her main counters in botlane are Draven/twitch and kai sa.

Draven just runs her down, Twitch gets close with invis+ulti and Kai sa just need to get at least one passive proc on Ashe somehow to ulti ontop of her and kill her with Q.

What does real good Ashe actually do? She avoids fighting at all as much as possible, because poking wont work post the first back and her damage is inferior so dueling and fighting is a bad idea.

So you end up playing passively hoping that your jungler comes around and that enemy cant dodge your ulti.

Only exception is when you have a support whom together with you can very quickly kill a target when you engage on them, we are talking near instantly here.

She is my most played marksman, i have played her into pretty much every matchup ever seen botlane.

I have a fairly good idea of what works and what doesnt, and most of the time i am the one with 0 agency at all x)

cocacolalips1 votes

A melee like heca will just run in, force her to ulti to try and wait out his E and then he dashes ontop of her and its done.

Ashe perma slows you....... If Hercarim does that, he just dies because he can't get way after his first charge.... Her target is always stuck in place, not close enough to attack her but not far enough either to run away. that's why permanent slow is problematic, you can't do anything.

it's the same with every champion, Draven can't do anything because he is never in range to do anything, and when he is finally in range to do anything, it's because Ashe is the one starting the fight so she can kill him after poking him down repeatedly.

I have a fairly good idea of what works and what doesnt, and most of the time i am the one with 0 agency at all x)

that doesn't really mean anything, it depends on how good your ashe is, players below diamond 5 don't know how to kite properly, if you aren't at least diamond, you shouldn't be playing Ashe really, your mechanics aren't good enough.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Ashe´s slow isnt anywhere near strong enough to cancel out a strong speedup like heca E, it just doesnt work.

Draven vs Ashe? He gets a vampiric scepter or just a extra dorans blade early and suddenly he heals far more than Ashe can poke, and speaking from experience, if you try to poke him with a auto attack you´ll always eat at least 1 auto from him, and that deals near equivalent damage to your AA-W together.....if things go wrong you´ll eat 2 and thats a lost trade.

Dont know how to kite properly? Man it's not difficult at all O_O

Issue is that as you mentioned, it's a stat check.

Enemy has movespeed enough to ignore your slow? Game over.

Enemy has a powerful Dash like heca ulti? Also done.

Enemy just has 50%+ tenacity? Hell mode initiated.

The only time you can successfully kite something is when their dashes are down/very short, their speedups are weak and their tenacity is low/nonexistent.

The only champs i have ever successfully kited hard in recent time by myself are Renekton Skarner Darius Mordekaiser TahmKench, everything else has the ability to catch up with relative easy if they put their minds to it.

Actually, add a condition to those, no item 3742 and no predator.

One thing is certain, Ashe has been a founder of the entire thing but she was not one of the many who benefited in the end.

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