Make Garen's Villain mechanic apply to clones as well

ReshiKillim·Sep 2, 2015·241 votes·12,976 views

It's my utter grief as a Shaco main, that Garen's ult passive is like a permanent ward on me in a fight. It makes it impossible to outplay people, simply because it reveals the real Shaco/Wukong/Leblanc instantly. There's no way to guard against it. This has made Garen something that Shaco players will have to permaban, because it prevents any kinds of attempts at outplaying people with a clone.

I would gladly accept Garen nuking the crap out of my clone with ease over semi-permanent "THIS IS THE REAL SHACO" over my head. I'd at least be able to escape. But no, with the Villain mechanic as it currently is, It's worse than dealing with a Rek'sai when you're trying to gank/escape as a stealth champ. Rek gets instant "Stealthed person is here" if you're moving while she's burrowed.

But Garen has a global "THIS IS REAL SHACO LOL TOO BAD" which is more than unfair. It's downright Game breaking for Shaco, it renders his ult useless.

182 Comments

SmokinSickStyleSep 2, 201552 votes

ACCURSED VILLAIN.

VILE SCOURGE.

JUSTICE, BY LAW, OR BY SWORD.

FOR DEMACIA.

That's kind of the point of being targetted as Villain, pay for your actions and you won't be hunted like the Dragonborn gets hunted for stepping on a chicken in Skyrim.

Pff.

ReshiKillimSep 2, 201516 votes

{quoted}

ACCURSED VILLAIN.

VILE SCOURGE.

JUSTICE, BY LAW, OR BY SWORD.

FOR DEMACIA.

That's kind of the point of being targetted as Villain, pay for your actions and you won't be hunted like the Dragonborn gets hunted for stepping on a chicken in Skyrim.

Pff.

For a bursty assassin champ who tends to get a rather good number of kills, Garen's villain mechanic punishes them extremely hard for playing properly.

SmokinSickStyleSep 2, 20151 votes

I get your point, but that's the point of Garen's theme chasing people like you.

I have a solution, make the marker stand for a Maximum of 5 minutes, so if you can escape him for those 5 minutes you cannot be targetted as Villain again for 5 minutes, unless everybody else has their "mark" on CD so the cycle starts again.

What do you think?

It could scale with level, so lategame the mark becomes of 2 minutes which is fairly adequate imho.

ReshiKillimSep 2, 201515 votes

{quoted}

I get your point, but that's the point of Garen's theme chasing people like you.

I have a solution, make the marker stand for a Maximum of 5 minutes, so if you can escape him for those 5 minutes you cannot be targetted as Villain again for 5 minutes, unless everybody else has their "mark" on CD so the cycle starts again.

What do you think?

It could scale with level, so lategame the mark becomes of 2 minutes which is fairly adequate imho.

The problem is not the villain mechanic itself, but that it gives his whole team a semi-permanent visual clarity on what Shaco is the real Shaco.

If they added it to the clone as well, it'd make the clone die a lot faster to Garen while fixing the problem of Shaco's ult not being useful. Old Garen wasn't a problem because he could mistakenly ult the clone. New Garen can't unless he just facerolls keyboard.

TyaldanSep 3, 201511 votes

Or they could just make garen and the villain only see the damn thing. No one else needs to know who the villain is. Really.

Daedalus871Sep 3, 201511 votes

Well, the villain's team should know, so that they can give extra peel.

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, the villain's team should know, so that they can give extra peel.

Edit: Embarrassing derp has been removed

TwigglesSep 3, 20151 votes

He said the Villain's team... You know? YOUR teammates. >.>;

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20152 votes

My total embarrassing derp right there.. Though peel still doesn't mean a difference to Shaco when it comes to Garen. He's just too tanky to fight when villainized as Shaco

Daedalus871Sep 3, 20153 votes

I'm also going to say Garen's team should know, so if they wanted too, they could knowledgeably apply cc so Garen can get to his target/ burst down a squishy so it transfers over to a tankier teammates.

As far as Garen V Shaco goes, I think Shaco should lose that one as Garen is a Bruiser/Tank while Shaco is an assassin. Now as far as Villain Status "Marking" the real Shaco, that may or may not be an issue Riot wants to look at. I believe that Red and Blue buffs also "mark" the real Shaco and I believe that Riot knows about those too.

HäßlichSep 3, 20152 votes

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

This is most likely just a bug/oversight, and should be corrected in the way the TC originally suggested. The villain mechanic, no matter how annoying/frustrating to play against, does not need to have a workaround that creates new issues when the obvious bugfix is easy to implement.

More to the point, Garen has received substantial nerfs in exchange for this new mechanic, so nerfing it means that Garen took all those nerfs for a very poor reason. Since being "reworked" (coughNERFEDcough) into a "Juggernaught" Garen's identity has been split between being that in-your-face tanky/aoe threat and simply being an anti-carry. He did not get enough power in exchange for what he gave up, so he does not need to have what little he did get "toned down" beyond simply bugfixing issues that render other champions near useless.

RiotRiotRepertoirSep 3, 201540 votes

I'm looking to do a few things to Villainy in an upcoming patch. I'll try and give some consideration to clones when I do.

ks916Sep 3, 20154 votes

One of the reason's I think Garen's laning phase is pretty strong/has good comeback potential is because of his villain passive. I hate it when I kill Garen and get the villain mark on me. Would it be possible if the villain kills Garen they lose the villain mark?

BharhashSep 3, 201524 votes

{quoted}

One of the reason's I think Garen's laning phase is pretty strong/has good comeback potential is because of his villain passive. I hate it when I kill Garen and get the villain mark on me. Would it be possible if the villain kills Garen they lose the villain mark?

That doesn't make sense though. That's like saying a bank robber gets out of jail by virtue of killing the cop who chased him.

If you're the Villain, you're the Villain. Doesn't matter if you kill Garen. If you strike him down, he will only return more powerful that you can possibly imagine.

#JediGaren

sp441Sep 4, 20156 votes

Wait, are you implying that GTA isn't reflective of real life?

SociopathFriendSep 4, 20153 votes

Good God- imagine the spin if he had a lightsaber.

TotalJerkSep 3, 20156 votes

It's was designed specifically to be a comeback mechanic.

AL000Sep 4, 20152 votes

more like anti-carry... different than hypercarry imho...

hypercarry might face and fight more than 2 and win... hypercarry might change or comeback the victory... hypercarry also scale to late very well... ( garen does have good scale tho but not exactly hypercarry... he is more like better heavily snowballer)

anti-carry is kinda different because of assassin mechanic...

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20158 votes

I thank you for bringing your consideration of justice to us clones, I hope that you can save us from Garen's terrifying injustice.

PS: I would totally to love to see that in a patch note on Garen. No more injustice: Clones are marked as villains as well.

Critmaster GarenSep 2, 201512 votes

i mean is there any other way to discern the real shaco from the clone? as far as ive seen theyve removed everything that could help identify clones over the years. except from things like blue or red buff. but we have no control over that.

clones didnt use to have an inventory, but they changed that and it mirrors the inventory of the owner now.

it would be fine if they did that, as long as they leave something that lets us idientify the clone if we inspect him. it still takes valuable seconds.

otherwise hitting r (or doing nothing in leblancs case), isnt much of an outplay. its hard enough to outmaneuver a leblanc and get her into ult range in the first place.

ima firinSep 2, 20152 votes

they still have lower AD

they still dont have blue/red/baron buffs around them

they still dont have dragon stacks

Critmaster GarenSep 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ima firin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:51:17.194+0000)

they still have lower AD

they still dont have blue/red/baron buffs around them

they still dont have dragon stacks

lower ad requires you to actually compare both of them. often, leblanc and shaco let their clones run into different directions, so you can only follow one of them or have one in sight.

as far as buffs go, drake buff is a good point, but they might not have been able to take it. and i just mentioned red and blue buff. we have no control over that.

i dont see a reason not to just give the clones a debuff icon, so you can identify them when you klick on them.

i didnt even object to the change the op suggested, but there should be other means of identifying the clone that we actually have control over. even looking at his buffs/debuffs when selecting the clone can take valuable seconds and make on the spot decisions difficult.

especially leblanc where 1 second can mean she activates or reactivates w or ult.

im not as much concerned about shaco, since he actually has to burn ult.

A BanditoSep 3, 20153 votes

Then use their behavior to decide which is the real one. That's kind of the idea of the clone. Being able to quickly discern between the clone and the real champ would completely take away from the whole point. This is coming from someone who doesn't even like clone champions.

Honestly, why have a clone at all if all the enemy has to do is left click EITHER one, see they don't/do have a debuff and just kill the real champ right away? That completely takes away from any cool outplays clone champs can do and essentially ruins the thought process behind a clone champ entirely.

The EcdysiastSep 3, 20152 votes

... Because it can still be used to block, still does damage, and can still take Aggro from the map.

Hyrum GraffSep 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:54:41.708+0000)

lower ad requires you to actually compare both of them. often, leblanc and shaco let their clones run into different directions, so you can only follow one of them or have one in sight.

as far as buffs go, drake buff is a good point, but they might not have been able to take it. and i just mentioned red and blue buff. we have no control over that.

i dont see a reason not to just give the clones a debuff icon, so you can identify them when you klick on them.

i didnt even object to the change the op suggested, but there should be other means of identifying the clone that we actually have control over. even looking at his buffs/debuffs when selecting the clone can take valuable seconds and make on the spot decisions difficult.

especially leblanc where 1 second can mean she activates or reactivates w or ult.

im not as much concerned about shaco, since he actually has to burn ult.

I feel like that's kind of the point. Have you seen bad shacos? They (I) leave their (my) clone standing there while they control shaco. Good shacos can micro their clone to attack the enemy from behind, or play mind games and run their clone around while they attack from behind. The whole point of these clone champs is that they create mind games where you have to guess which is which by behavior. If you can just click on one and instantly know if it's the clone, that's too much counterplay, IMO. It's like an easier version of the villain mark.

ReshiKillimSep 2, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:17:59.336+0000)

i mean is there any other way to discern the real shaco from the clone? as far as ive seen theyve removed everything that could help identify clones over the years. except from things like blue or red buff. but we have no control over that.

clones didnt use to have an inventory, but they changed that and it mirrors the inventory of the owner now.

it would be fine if they did that, as long as they leave something that lets us idientify the clone if we inspect him. it still takes valuable seconds.

otherwise hitting r (or doing nothing in leblancs case), isnt much of an outplay. its hard enough to outmaneuver a leblanc and get her into ult range in the first place.

Yes, there is other ways to tell which ones are real. Shaco's clone ALWAYS has 75% of the real Shaco's AD/AP. So the Shaco with more AD/AP is the real one. And the clone is squishier than the real one, because it takes more damage. Also, any summoners/debuffs with timers/dots applied to it will only apply to the real Shaco.

The problem is that Garen's ult passive is more deadly to Shaco than having enemy 5 pink wards down on the map.

TotalJerkSep 2, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:17:59.336+0000)

as far as ive seen theyve removed everything that could help identify clones over the years.

I don't play Shaco or Leblanc, and honestly the clones irritate me, but this is a good thing. The only way the enemy team should be able to tell the difference is through behavior, IMO.

Meep ManSep 3, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:17:59.336+0000)

i mean is there any other way to discern the real shaco from the clone? as far as ive seen theyve removed everything that could help identify clones over the years. except from things like blue or red buff. but we have no control over that.

clones didnt use to have an inventory, but they changed that and it mirrors the inventory of the owner now.

it would be fine if they did that, as long as they leave something that lets us idientify the clone if we inspect him. it still takes valuable seconds.

otherwise hitting r (or doing nothing in leblancs case), isnt much of an outplay. its hard enough to outmaneuver a leblanc and get her into ult range in the first place.

Yes but that's Shaco's thing. Easy and effective tricks to fool his enemies.

The EcdysiastSep 3, 20152 votes

When deceiving enemies is purely the champion and has nothing to do with skill, there's an issue.

SquarefighterSep 3, 20152 votes

If you ping Shaco before he clones the target indicator will stay above only the real one.

KING OF MASKSSep 3, 201512 votes

You can't fool justice.

SyndrarellaSep 3, 20158 votes

[deleted]

The EcdysiastSep 3, 20152 votes

Yeah. Just don't pick Shaco into Garen. Getting someone who counters Shaco without massive AoE damage is fair.

TwigglesSep 3, 20157 votes

Shaco is literally my favorite champ in the game, but I don't really have an issue with this. It kind of turns Garen into a good counterpick for Shaco, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Shaco already has a lot of tools to escape/outplay people, so I don't think having to deal with one counter that is only really a counter after you're already fed is that big of an issue.

But hey. That's just my opinion on the matter. You certainly do have a valid complaint regardless of what I think. Maybe if the icon only showed up over the villain's head when Garen is close by (like within 1000 units maybe?)? That would also fit Garen's theme of hunting down villains, since it would be more an indicator for him than anyone else.

Just throwing out an idea here. -shrugs-

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20154 votes

My biggest problem is that it reveals me even when he's nowhere nearby. If it was just as long as he was nearby, it'd be tolerable though I'd prefer the clone being able to bait it like it does Cho'gath ult. Cho'gaths "Eat to kill" appears around clones as well, to my great happiness.

Beacon 0F LightSep 2, 20154 votes

No offense, and I may get downvoted for this, but I'll gladly accept anything that makes Shaco main's lives more difficult.

ReshiKillimSep 2, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon 0F Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-02T22:25:18.785+0000)

No offense, and I may get downvoted for this, but I'll gladly accept anything that makes Shaco main's lives more difficult.

Here's somethings that makes Shaco main's lives more difficult, without needing a Gayren on the team. Pink wards in the lane, normal wards in the jungle, and Upgraded Sweeper. Pinks and Upgraded sweeper give true sight, both are something I would agree is totally efficient against Shaco.

And both are things that aren't plain unfair. Gayren's sword doesn't disappear after you kill him, pinks and upgraded trinket sight do. You're stuck with it until you die or your teammate gets fed.

PS: Lee is also highly annoying due to have two abilities that reveal stealthed Shacos

Critmaster GarenSep 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Here's somethings that makes Shaco main's lives more difficult, without needing a Gayren on the team. Pink wards in the lane, normal wards in the jungle, and Upgraded Sweeper. Pinks and Upgraded sweeper give true sight, both are something I would agree is totally efficient against Shaco.

And both are things that aren't plain unfair. Gayren's sword doesn't disappear after you kill him, pinks and upgraded trinket sight do. You're stuck with it until you die or your teammate gets fed.

PS: Lee is also highly annoying due to have two abilities that reveal stealthed Shacos

damn, i could open a salt mine in that post and get rich.

yea, i can understand that its frustrating for you that the indicator reveals the real shaco. and to be honest, i think they just forgot about the clone mechanic and are going to change that soon. which is fine.

but at least in leblancs case, i still think there should be a clear debuff indicator for the clone, as it doesnt actually take her any efford or blow important resources (ult cooldown) for a pretty large benefit. (distracing the enemy until w is up). and shes one of those champions who doesnt have to take a lot of risks to get into the position where she could get garen ulted in the first place.

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Here's somethings that makes Shaco main's lives more difficult, without needing a Gayren on the team. Pink wards in the lane, normal wards in the jungle, and Upgraded Sweeper. Pinks and Upgraded sweeper give true sight, both are something I would agree is totally efficient against Shaco.

And both are things that aren't plain unfair. Gayren's sword doesn't disappear after you kill him, pinks and upgraded trinket sight do. You're stuck with it until you die or your teammate gets fed.

PS: Lee is also highly annoying due to have two abilities that reveal stealthed Shacos

I see, you're the toxic kind of shaco players who will bm the players whenever they can, would have agreed with you if you didn't start shit talking like a scrub you are.

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I see, you're the toxic kind of shaco players who will bm the players whenever they can, would have agreed with you if you didn't start shit talking like a scrub you are.

o.o? I don't see where I started bad mouthing anyone. Lee is annoying to me because he has abilities that counteract my stealth, that's a given.

Garen is annoying because he can kill me in around 3 seconds if I'm the villain, and that's when I have full health.

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

o.o? I don't see where I started bad mouthing anyone. Lee is annoying to me because he has abilities that counteract my stealth, that's a given.

Garen is annoying because he can kill me in around 3 seconds if I'm the villain, and that's when I have full health.

Exaggerating about garen so much that it hurts and calling him gayren proves it, also people generally hate shaco more than garen even now.

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20156 votes

No exaggeration. I've died to a Garen who was 5/3 in 3 seconds because I was villain. I took 2K damage in 2.8 seconds, from his spin and ult.

I couldn't even 1v1 a Garen who was at 10% HP due to how much damage he did while being super tanky.

Shaco is also generally less powerful than Garen. No true damage, no hyper tank, no passive worth 2800 gold, no % damage reducing ability, no true damage or true damage nuke for a huge portion of anyone's missing HP. And no HP % damage abilities/passives at all. Pink wards scare Shaco, they don't scare Garen.

But yet again, I ask: Where did I bad mouth anyone? Nowhere. I only voiced my complaints about a champion being able to make my ult useless in a lot of situations with a passive of his ultimate.

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No exaggeration. I've died to a Garen who was 5/3 in 3 seconds because I was villain. I took 2K damage in 2.8 seconds, from his spin and ult.

I couldn't even 1v1 a Garen who was at 10% HP due to how much damage he did while being super tanky.

Shaco is also generally less powerful than Garen. No true damage, no hyper tank, no passive worth 2800 gold, no % damage reducing ability, no true damage or true damage nuke for a huge portion of anyone's missing HP. And no HP % damage abilities/passives at all. Pink wards scare Shaco, they don't scare Garen.

But yet again, I ask: Where did I bad mouth anyone? Nowhere. I only voiced my complaints about a champion being able to make my ult useless in a lot of situations with a passive of his ultimate.

Yes you are exaggerating, you won't have the mark all the time, unless you're a piece of shit player who steals every kill from his teammates, you're supposed to help the lanes not steal every kill there is, and if you are, then you deserve to be punished.

ReshiKillimSep 3, 20154 votes

I ask, if a jungler ganks and gets a kill or two is that wrong? Is it wrong for a jungler to get kills from their ganks? Does it not help the lanes if the jungler comes and kills the enemy laner(s), thus allowing the allied laner(s) to push and farm safely for a bit?

When potential kill on the enemy is there, if the teammate(s) the jungler is ganking for may or may not be able to get the kill is it wrong for the jungler to make sure they die?

The answer to all of these, is No.

Taking a kill when you gank is not stealing from the team.

Ask a higher tier player, Dia, Master, Challenger, and they'll tell you that securing a kill is what matters. If you're not sure your teammate can take it, it's better to take it yourself. Because letting people escape because you made sure to not "Steal" doesn't help anyone.

Stealing a kill would be if someone killed a 200 HP manaless Leblanc with no flash who is sitting right next to their full hp ADC.

If the jungler is not sure whether or not the teammates can secure the kill in a gank, it's better to just take the kill. Because letting the time where they could be ganking other lanes, counterjungling, or just farming in their own jungle go to waste is a seriously bad idea.

Risking nobody getting gold from a gank is not worth it.

Dar RaksadaSep 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yes you are exaggerating, you won't have the mark all the time, unless you're a piece of shit player who steals every kill from his teammates, you're supposed to help the lanes not steal every kill there is, and if you are, then you deserve to be punished.

I never have a problem when a shaco jungler secures my kill, I jungle often and while I try to give the laners the kill, some junglers such as shaco need the kills. There wouldn't be a kill anyway if the Jungler hadn't come. I still get gold from the assist and farm when laning.

What I have a problem with is junglers taking the kill _and _my farm

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=00060000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-03T10:54:16.176+0000)

I never have a problem when a shaco jungler secures my kill, I jungle often and while I try to give the laners the kill, some junglers such as shaco need the kills. There wouldn't be a kill anyway if the Jungler hadn't come. I still get gold from the assist and farm when laning.

What I have a problem with is junglers taking the kill _and _my farm

I am replying solely based on his attitude, he seems like the shaco who steals every kill and probably gets the laners farm, as I said I am fine if he takes 1 or 2 kills, but taking every kill and acting as if he has the villain mechanic for 40 min is TOTALLY biased or PoS player who steals everything.

Dar RaksadaSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I am replying solely based on his attitude, he seems like the shaco who steals every kill and probably gets the laners farm, as I said I am fine if he takes 1 or 2 kills, but taking every kill and acting as if he has the villain mechanic for 40 min is TOTALLY biased or PoS player who steals everything.

If a shaco is doing well he tends to have most kills out of everyone, which afaik makes him the villain. It's a valid complaint that doing well gets you countered globally. You can't even properly gank botlane because toplane has a garen.

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ncwh1phc,comment-id=0006000000010000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-03T11:06:00.879+0000)

If a shaco is doing well he tends to have most kills out of everyone, which afaik makes him the villain. It's a valid complaint that doing well gets you countered globally. You can't even properly gank botlane because toplane has a garen.

If he's doing well then he can just as easily not press e to take the 10 kill from his adc, seriously do you need to be smart to not press e or right click on the enemy if he's low? That's why nobody likes shaco or shaco players, they steal everything and then are useless late game.

DokiDokiTodorokiSep 3, 20154 votes

Are you calling a Shaco player toxic because he gets kills in games as a jungler? Where is the logic in this? Why are you assuming that his e is only being used to last hit, that somehow the adc deserves the kill if they're getting out last hit by a Shaco on a jungler's budget with a jungling item? Sounds like you're just salty about the champion and blaming the entire player base because you don't like how Shaco functions. It's very possible to have the villain mark for a majority of the 40 minutes if Garen doesn't kill the villain and the rest of the game continues aside from top lane. Shaco can get kills without last hitting them. You sound so salty and defensive for someone who attacked first.

TransgressorSep 3, 20154 votes

Sorry, I shouldn't take part in this, I'm biased because I hate Shaco but here are my 2cents :/

Personally(take it with a grain of salt) I think Shaco's already lacking counterplay as is. And since all the games he is in, I don't really have fun, having him punished pleases me. As far as RekSai is concerned, that's not an issue with counterplay. It's the fact that you got counterpicked(which shows skillful opponents) or you picked Shaco into RekSai, which means you either are really confident with your Shaco(but then why complain about it knowing you yourself made the choice to play against a counter) or you're a one-trick-ponie.

Nonetheless, if Villain was only visible to Garen instead of his whole team, that would at least give you some breathing room. Fact is, a Shaco should always stay the fuck away from Garen, and tanks/bruisers in general.