People seem to have forgotten how utterly toxic the game used to be

ReshiKillim··79 votes·16,175 views

"All the seasons before S6 were all better balanced than this stupid awful S8"

No, they weren't.

Pre-rework Fiora was a utter cancer that could literally win a 1v5 "teamfight" by pressing one button if she was fed enough. Not even kidding, I've done that in the past.

Ekko could build full tank, match a Darius in damage output, assassinate squishies almost as effectively as reworked Evelynn, all while being extremely hard to kill because he was a hyper mobile high damage tank with a large AoE CC, and his ult healed him a ton without having to build any AP. In other words, imagine a harder to kill, harder to escape from, more mobile pre-nerfs Ornn in your toplane.

Kassadin, Talon, and Leblanc all had higher burst than they do now and they all had point and click silences that fit perfectly into their combo without trading off any damage for it. Imagine Draven if every 6 seconds his autoattacks CC'd you on hit.

Feral Flare, Devourer were basically slightly less bursty Dark Harvests that proc'd on every hit. As you can probably tell, it made playing vs Trundle, Shyvy, Xin, Jax, Yi, and even Aatrox feel like playing vs a tanky fed marksman that didn't need any support to protect them from assassins.

Vayne and Kog'maw were pretty much the only two marksmen that were consistently viable.

Rengar deleted anything that wasn't a tank in as little as 0.01 seconds while being invisible so he could walk up next to you and murder you without you ever getting to see him until you were dead.

Sion, Rammus, and several others could kill a full build marksman while completely ignoring their existence, just off thornmail return damage.

Shaco was far stronger than he is now, and had a lot more cheeses available (though I do admit, he was hella fun to play) to him.

Tanks in general were either overbearing and just miserable to play against, or they were just there to contribute CC. Sounds like pre-nerfs and post nerfs Ornn in the mid-late, doesn't it?

Enchanters were still heal/shield/ward bots, with the exception of Lulu, who was more anti-fun for toplaners than Ornn was when at his strongest.

Akali and Annie still powerspiked hard as soon as they hit 6.

Riven was a much worse experience to play against.

Dodge being a stat.

Evelynn went through several iterations of being cancerous simply due to bad design, resulting in her getting nerfed literally every time she became in any way decent for anyone who didn't main her.

Rek'sai being **THE **jungler.

Sword of the Divine, which made any AD that built it a crit burst machine.

Atma's impaler, which gave AD scaling tanks/fighters, especially Sion, a huge amount of offensive power while still being tanky.

Deathfire grasp.

And so much more.

There were also a ton of horrendous bugs, so many that even Mordekaiser looks relatively debugged. For example, areas that you could place a ward and stand behind it to make you invisible to anyone who's not positioned at a specific angle. Shaco getting permanently stealthed by some strange interaction. Ryze and Sivir bug-oneshotting things.

Healers sometimes killing their teammates by healing them. Tahm and Tryndamere also sometimes damaging/killing teammates.

Thresh and Blitzcrank hooks catching you in toplane, or the jungle, or midlane, or anywhere really, when they're used in botlane. The Darius teleport pull cheese that allowed him to level 1 penta by pulling people into his fountain.

Azir.

151 Comments

redniwediS26 votes

Sion, Rammus, and several others could kill a full build marksman while completely ignoring their existence, just off thornmail return damage.

The one thing I was fine with. I honestly prefer the idea of Marksmen being a secondary carry class who's main purpose is objective damage.

AirKingNeo5 votes

because thornmail is good design, right?

redniwediS5 votes

Not necessarily. This is more about my preferences and feel for the situation than what is and is not good game design.

AirKingNeo3 votes

But you just talked about game design with marksmen's main purpose being objective damage!

redniwediS6 votes

And I specifically listed it as a preference. Nowhere did I say it was a good idea or an idea that would be healthy for the game, only that it's an idea I prefer.

AirKingNeo2 votes

then you just proved yourself as extremely biased.

redniwediS8 votes

No, I did not. Everyone is biased in one way or another, but I'm not even claiming that my preference is a good idea, so I don't see how the word "extremely" would be applicable here.

If you're just looking for an argument there are more interesting topics I'd gladly participate in, but this is getting ridiculous.

saltran26 votes

Azir

Yep, that was a huge mistake.

meowwow722 votes

and speaking of dodge chance spectating a game if you hold c during spectating they still have it in the champ info

Tokogawaruf28 votes

small indie company bro, they dont have the neccesary Tech/Money yet to update it

MEXICOMAN1 votes

{quoted}

small indie company bro, they dont have the neccesary Tech/Money yet to update it

thats not a valid argument, they have made many millions and have a massive staff. its not an excuse anymore.

Marshbouy10 votes

wooooosh Riot hasn't used that excuse in like, 6 years or something. Nobody says it seriously anymore.

50000000000000004 votes

They do mention it time to time, but very clearly ironically. I love it when they say it.

Hong Kong Annie16 votes

The game may have been "toxic" but it was at least fun to play.

End Thy Self15 votes

Look to the left on this page. Do you see the picture of wukong with the quote "Every mistake is a lesson"? Every time I see that, I think about how much riot's balance team must have learned in the 9 years that this game has been around. Not a lot.

iDemacia14 votes

You forgot the god AP Yi

Bolroy13 votes

Lets not forget Atmogs, where you would get 8000 HP, 20% Crit and 250-300 AD.

OurLestrade9 votes

{quoted}

Lets not forget Atmogs, where you would get 8000 HP, 20% Crit and 250-300 AD.

The Holy Fratmogs Trinity. Come pray with us, brother.

Sassmast3r13 votes

Never forget in Season 5 how literally every single game, it was either one of these two combinations in bottom lane:

Vayne Thresh

or

Jinx Thresh

That's it. Thresh was in every single game. There was an occasional Tristana.

3TWarrior2 votes

not in all of them, but he did get a 40% pick rate in some divisions if I remember right

Trash MammaI11 votes

Yea, this game was/is insanely toxic, but at least they lasted past 4 minutes when the games decided based on which bot lane got a kill first.

A lot of stuff people bitched about in the past was NEVER as bad as it seemed. People bandwagon insanely hard. I've played this game for years and you can clearly see when Riot makes a mistake but this season in general was just a huge fuck up for them.

Snowballing and damage creep in this game makes it nearly unplayble, i'd imagine this is even worse for actual high elo players. I'm only gold and my games don't last long unless we want them to and try to drag it out for the sake of enjoying ourselves.

There are games where i'm support or adc and we get a kill bot or get killed ourselves and the moment we get back to lane we're fucked. They just kill you over and over and you can't stop it. Towers don't do shit. (I was recently watching Imaqtpie video and in the game an ali tanked like 5 tower shots at level 4 and still lived.)

This game is just a mess right now. The only real reason I continue to play is because I haven't gotten a new PC yet that can run higher end games so I can actually play other things. That and I like the moba genre but I hate starting fresh on them so I honestly feel obligated to play league to stay decent in the genre

seachrome11 votes

Remember when Kassadin was so unbalanced that he wasn't let outside the ban corner for 2 seasons? How anyone believes that the early season were better balanced is beyond me.

ReshiKillim10 votes

I remember the 99% banrate quite well. Especially the times you were vs him mid in the 1% he wasn't.

saltran7 votes

{quoted}

Remember when Kassadin was so unbalanced that he wasn't let outside the ban corner for 2 seasons? How anyone believes that the early season were better balanced is beyond me.

I would LOVE to see what ppl would say on the Boards if the current balance team had a champ for 2 years with the banrates that Kassadin had, seriously.

Mizaya10 votes

And I still clearly remember, from 6 years ago, the one time he wasn't banned, and I walked into a Kassadin who had 550 AP 17 minutes into the game 100-0ing me with a Q-E.

OurLestrade9 votes

Wasn't there a bug at one point where if a Thresh hooked a Leona while she was using her W the game would crash for everyone in the match? I seem to remember hearing about that in early 2013.

ReshiKillim6 votes

Yeah, that was a thing. Also one where thresh hook would cause FPS drops to anyone who saw it fly out of Fog of war.

Pokemonred2009 votes

I for one, liked a lot of the things listed here that, to my memory, were not bugs.

Except for Tank Ekko.

That can go die in a horrible pit of fire.

But Flare, Atma's, SOTD, Deathfire Grasp, and Devourer were all items I loved.

Healers used to have to build a lot more AP to reach the heal/shield levels they get now, as well.

Tanks honestly don't feel any different then than they do now. They're either CC bots or unkillable damage titans from hell still.

Thornmail I'll give you, but that was literally its entire job in the first place.

Who said level 6 murderspikes don't still happen?

I always saw Shaco as that champion that's supposed to make the early game a living hell, who you eventually stop fearing as the game goes on (Kind of like the IT Clown)

Evelynn I saw the same as I saw Shaco, but that's not to say she wasn't aids when she was meta.

In earlier seasons, wasn't it Caitlyn Tristana Graves Lucian who were consistently meta?

Dodge I can't really give much insight for, as I wasn't here for much of its existence.

saltran7 votes

The trinity of adcs were Corki Ezreal Graves for a while.

And 2 of them are not botlaners anymore, that's pretty sad imo.

VICHEL CHAOS3 votes

I miss playing Leona-Graves.

MuffledGarbage7 votes

Hey look, all problems that only came from SPECIFIC CHAMPS and BUGS instead of problems that come from INNATE GAMEPLAY AND ENTIRE CLASSES OF THE GAMEBEING BROKEN HMMMM I wonder what's worse... specific BAD part of a game... or a GIANT F*CKING SECTION OF THE GAME

Feed or Famine4 votes

Did you even read the OP? It talks about Tanks being overpowered, as well as when hyper carry jgs were op FF/devours, deathfire grasp making mages too strong, ect. There were plenty of times he mentioned where the problems effected an entire group of champions.

The most broken time that I have ever played in league was the short FF period, where it was just the junglers rushing stacks to see who would be the one to solocarry the game. Then perhaps the ATMOGS tanks being so strong that playing ADC felt horrible. And then maybe now, with how broken bot lane has become (especially if you stretch it back to last season as well.)

While I still think it's a problem, I think you're post doesn't even take into account the entire OP.

Disembark2 votes

Lol Devourer was so much worse. Things like Yi would build Devourer + Rageblade + Full tank and outdps any carry.

It was actually fucking disgusting. Like having 3.5k HP, being unkiteable, and doing 1K dps mid of true/magic/physical all by yourself was so stupid.

Same was true for any Devourer and/or Rageblade user (pre-rework)

CytheGuy7 votes

Yes, all of the above is true. I won't even deny it. But The game was still fun. There will never be a time where there is no cheese/insta-win strategy, that's just a part of balance, or a lack-thereof sometimes. Through all of that, I could still go into another game/start my first game of the day without saying "I shouldn't have started this game." or "Why am I playing League?"

And even then, as some people in the comment thread have already stated, these are all specific things within the game that were broken, literally and metaphorically. Now there are entire aspects of the game that have problems, and I don't care to list them because if you spend 3 days on the Boards you will hear them all.

KoKoboto6 votes

Idc. Season 3 was okay. Season 4 and early season 5 was the best time because they were cleaning up all the problems in the game and making more champion diversity. Prerework Fiora 1v5...?

WrÆth5 votes

You really don't like Ornn lmao

ReshiKillim5 votes

Actually, I really like playing Ornn. He's hella fun to play. He just wasn't fun to play against.

SwiftKitten885 votes

... not all of those existed at once... season 4 was great

ReshiKillim2 votes

Season 4 was great, I agree, though it had plenty of issues of its own. I'm not saying S8 is in a good state, because it isn't, it's unbalanced, just like every season was before it. People need to not neglect the fact that the past seasons had just as many issues as we've got now, though they were different issues, some of them were as game-skewing as the the current state of marksmen.

All the clamoring for the past seasons, which had plenty of various different game skewing problems, are just going to send riot the wrong signals.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Season 4 was great, I agree, though it had plenty of issues of its own. I'm not saying S8 is in a good state, because it isn't, it's unbalanced, just like every season was before it. People need to not neglect the fact that the past seasons had just as many issues as we've got now, though they were different issues, some of them were as game-skewing as the the current state of marksmen.

All the clamoring for the past seasons, which had plenty of various different game skewing problems, are just going to send riot the wrong signals.

yeah it had plenty of issues, but even the biggest ones pale in comparison to even what we would call minor things now in season 8.

some of them were as game skewing as marksmen yeah, but they didn't last for TWO YEARS!!! THAT'S the difference. riot saw the issue and fixed it... maybe it wasn't the best fix but at least they did something...

riot has blatantly ignored ADC's and damage creep. trading literally does not exist in this game past lvl 2, maybe lvl 3 on some champs.

my main currently is in a REALLY shitty spot. compared to most other jungler however if she had her current damage season 4? and no one else did she would be 100% banned until she was hotfixed.

and as much as i WANT her to be able to lane again.. there is zero way in hell she can. unless damage is significantly lowered

ReshiKillim1 votes

I mean, Deathfire Grasp was around from S1 until S5, and it was as skewing as the current state of marksmen. A point and click item that dealt 15% max HP in addition to making you deal 20% bonus magic damage to them for 4 seconds was plain unhealthy. It was one of the main reasons why marksmen ended up so powerful.

Marksmen went on a spiral of getting buffed up because of DFG's existence for the longest time, because it allowed for AP champions to utterly obliterate them by breathing on them. Initial Luden's, which replaced DFG, was still a bit too powerful, but not utterly obliterating them, made the role significantly more healthy.

Marksmen became good with the item and champion changes during later S5 with the marksmen class update, and stayed in a somewhat healthy, albeit a bit strong, spot through S6. They got a little bit stronger during 6.9 when the mage class update happened, due to all the changes such as the elemental drakes for example.

But what made them really take off was the assassin class update. Assassins as a class, still have not recovered from it. Nor has the game. Some have, such as K6, but Rengar, Shaco, Leblanc, Fizz, and most of the semi-assassins, like Nidalee for example, in addition to a number of burst mages are still aren't as good at taking out marksmen as they used to be.

Most of the semi-assassins/burst mages are in a pretty bad spot over all. And I definitely agree there's some serious jungler treatment disparity, of which Nidalee, Sejuani, and Elise are examples.

3TWarrior3 votes

umm...what?

marksman were always generalists whose weakness was being squishy.

the problem is, out of nowehere, riot started making marksman items cheaper to get and then having the early game be much more stressful by adding passive damage to the game, which has been consistently stated to be unhealthy unless its cost matched its ease of use

remember season 6, with stormraiders surge, at level 1 it was around 60 extra damage or as if you had landed an ability or auto attack and it only got stronger from there...not to mention up to 14% extra damage to all sources

and that was just the new masteries back then

in season 5 and below, marksmen were essential, but their weaknesses were apparent and they required careful use. This is why vayne was complained about in season 5. Vayne was a hyper-mobile carry with tank-busting passive damage.

if you watch the higher tier games, now people are walking around with 1000 gold at only level 3 and with few to no kills and easy access to damage

it's ridiculous

VoraciousX5 votes

You're combining a ton of bad experiences all into one season, which wasn't the case. Also now Fiora ALWAYS has a way to come back into the game, and can still 1v5 late game regardless if she had a bad early game.

Vayne was in and out of meta, she wasn't "consistently meta". She could be abused early game and be put in the dumpster. Now she one shots people with crit like every other ADC. I preferred on-hit Vayne.

flibitydoo4 votes

Kog'maw wasn't consistent though

he was highly regarded as a terrible soloQ pick due to his dependancy on teammates

however, there was a time when kog'maw could press w, and 3 shot everyone in the game.... and he could also dump about 5 autos per second while doing this, you can do the math on how balanced it was

Béyòncé3 votes

You forgot pre-rework ap Tristana Most cancerous thing ever, I NEVER lost lane playing the old her

ReshiKillim2 votes

Please don't remind me of that abomination. I try not to remember it.

[sg-ahri-1]

Śhunpo3 votes

Yes, except now we have broken ADCs and supports, jungle being an oppressive role, Stopwatch, broken ass runes, Stopwatch, assassins having 10 years of delays, Stopwatch, Janna having a 54%+ winrate with no major nerfs, Stopwatch, dominant champions not being nerfed, lethality, DUSKBLADE (gross), crit. items being overpowered, solo carrying being nye non-existent now, the LC$ dominating Riot's decisions and oh...........DID I MENTION BLOODY STOPWATCH????!!!!

Don't just act like season 8 is fine. Sure, there were indeed balance issues in previous seasons, but now the fundamentals of the game are being stripped away from it just so Riot could create a fully competitive 0 fun game.

NOTE: Vayne was never really considered "viable" until season 5. She was a niche powerpick before then. Kog I can agree with though, he's never been "bad".

ReshiKillim1 votes

I didn't say it was fine, nor did I say S8 is in any way better than the state of the game in the past. Jungle has been oppressive many times before. Assassins and burst mages haven't recovered from their class updates that nerfed them. Which is why duskblade as a crutch happened in the first place.

My point was that past seasons weren't any better balanced than S8, they were more fun for some, less fun for others, and they had just as many problematic issues as there are now.

Śhunpo3 votes

{quoted}

I didn't say it was fine, nor did I say S8 is in any way better than the state of the game in the past. Jungle has been oppressive many times before. Assassins and burst mages haven't recovered from their class updates that nerfed them. Which is why duskblade as a crutch happened in the first place.

My point was that past seasons weren't any better balanced than S8, they were more fun for some, less fun for others, and they had just as many problematic issues as there are now.

Uuuuuh I can agree that seasons 1, 3, 5, 6 weren't balanced, but seasons 2 and 4 certainly were doing ok balance wise, much better than now.

Son Foku3 votes

Yeah season 2 was amazing. When you had 3 top laners (Jax, Irelia, and Olaf), 4 junglers. Fall behind in the jungle from 1 invade and the game is over 100% bc you were so gold starved. Supports had almost NO income, brought new meaning to ward bot.

Yeah, you’re looking at the game through rose tinted glasses, season 2 was not in a good place. For all te problems 8 has, there is far more diversity and balance than in season 2.

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