Details on the upcoming changes to Marksmen (ADCs)

ReshiKillim··33 votes·16,902 views

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

  1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
  2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
  3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
  4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Source: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/27mrj62T-give-us-an-update-of-whats-coming-this-mid-season-dont-leave-us-in-the-shadows?show=flat&amp%3Bcomment=0005&comment=0005

For all ya'll G&B folks who didn't check the red tracker.

[sg-ahri-2]

41 Comments

WiegrafOfValor51 votes

What I get from this:

New cheap AS item like zeal for Marksmen to rush in lane, knowing Riot for 6 years, the item will come out broken af and if the enemy ADC get it before yours you lost the lane, and if your ADC don't build it he's trolling and lost you the game. (Ardent Censor 2.0)

ADCs that don't scale with AS or can't use the new item effectively will have a drop of 10% on their winrate, then will be massively buffed in the next patch to be on par with the new item users, then the item will be nerfed and those ADCs that got the compensation buff will be the new S tier meta.

Infinity Edge will be buffed and have it's cost increased.

Essence Reaver will be buffed and has it cost *decreased. Making ADCs that use mana heavily become meta, and adding the icying on the shtcake of salty Mage players that need 3 mana items to stay afloat now.

ADCs will have -5 base AD nerf, but will get a compensation buff of +2 AD per lvl.

They will manage to buff or create an item for another class that give everything an ADC wants, then it will get abused by Marksmen, but instead of slapping a good ol' "Melee Only" on it, they will nerf it to the point that will be considered trolling buying this item on anyone, but, a Marksmen.


#Not feeling guys, I guess we'll have to wait and see, but to be honest I don't think they will fix anything.

Death Rex8 votes

Actually, Riot has been working on a starting item next to dorans blade. A version was tested on the PBE. That's probably what they mean with the second point.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku23 votes

Infinity Edge will be buffed and have it's cost increased.

How can you get this from

Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

[sg-lux-2]

Boards really like to bitch about anything...

Disembark13 votes

Seriously how did this comment get upvoted...

He literally speculates random shit. He’s preemptively bitching. I could literally bitch about anything and call Riot stupid and get upvotes on this Boards

saltran3 votes

Because it makes no sense and only cries about adcs, that's how majority of the most upvoted coments gets the upvotes, because it's literally nonsense

AirKingNeo3 votes

adding the icying on the shtcake of salty Mage players that need 3 mana items to stay afloat now.

Mages will need 3 mana items? That's funny!

Stacona3 votes

The League of Legends definition for a marksman is a ranged basic attacker, meaning they ALL use attack speed, dumbass.

WiegrafOfValor4 votes

Oh the white knights, never fail. Using such good arguments as well like "dumbass".

Why don't you just stop jerking the live design team and realize that some ADCs scale better with AS than others, if you get a Ezreal, MF, or Draven per example they much prefer raw AD than AS.

But it's ok, you think the game is perfect and the live balance team is a gift of heavens, I don't think anyone will change your mind. I'm not even going to try it.

Sire Hippington19 votes

Reading this and seeing the PBE mana changes, i'm loosing all hope that i had from the recent patches for this game...

Elohaven1 votes

People complained about ADCs.

They're getting what they want... ??

Sire Hippington1 votes

They need to be able to buy early[...] I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.

This part here makes me really wonder if adc really get adressed in any meaningfull way. I really looked forward to midseason because they said they wanted to adress adc and lower the impact of botlane, and maybe even look at crit, both because of the horrible RNG and the not so great concept of adc by default scaleing like gods into the late. But with lines like that, i really wonder if they will change all that much, since adc attacking fast witth solid kiteing and some punchy powerfull hits is exactly one of the main things people complain about.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku12 votes

Infinity Edge will be buffed and have it's cost increased.

How can you get this from

Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

RocketRelm1 votes

My guess is that op is assuming the change to IE involves some kind of inherent tank busting compensation, which may make the builds do slightly less to squish champions, but significantly more to beefy champions, which, especially before the points where the adcs get LW as an item, cast be a problem.

T4underbolt11 votes

riot has promised many things. Some were supposed to be shipped by 8.6 and werent done. I bet the hyped adc changes will be just placebo nerfs that change nothing and will only fool 20 iq adc players that will keep whining about how 2 AD base dmg nerf has affected them.

OP Garen Support6 votes

Mages are not the problem, ADC's are. They are nerfing a balanced role instead of a dominant 1.

AirKingNeo4 votes

lol mages are so fair that they perma waveclear mid xd

OP Garen Support6 votes

ADC's can perma wave clear, can heal themselves back up from 1 hp, cant do burst per second damage, their main damage is not gated by mana or cd, adc's dont use skillshot as main damage xd

AirKingNeo4 votes

ADCs can perma waveclear at 2600 gold using auto attacks, multiple attacks. Mages get it at 1100 gold.

ADCs can only heal themselves at 3800 gold, and rushing BT sucks. Realisitcally, that's 15000 gold in.

You're right. ADCs can't deal burst per second because that's a made-up term from people who are unreasonable.

Mages aren't gated by mana either anymore. Mages spells are more potent than ADC autos and much quicker.

A lot of mages don't use skillshots.

OP Garen Support5 votes

You can use full rotation and be useless for the next 10 seconds as a mage. ADC's don't run out of basic attacks.

I will make it simple so even people like you can understand as well. Mages use mana (a resource) to wave clear, adc use free auto attacks.

The least skilled thing in the game is point and click. What's the biggest damage in the game? That's right ADC's basic attacks.

AirKingNeo4 votes

WHAT COOLDOWNS ARE OVER 10 SECONDS IN THE CURRENT GAME?

Let me make it simple. Mages clear the wave faster.

And you're to decide basic attacks are skillless? Kiting isn't a skill? Auto spacing?

OP Garen Support5 votes

With all the built in CC and escape spells. Fighters cant even get near the ADC. Everything melts in seconds. Anyone with a brain knows basic attacks are skilles. If not then MasterYi Tryndamere are 1 of the most skilled champs in the game.

Either way no reason to argue with you. You are either a troll or a very dumb person. Ignoring you from now on.

AirKingNeo4 votes

With all the built in CC and escape spells. Fighters cant even get near the ADC. Everything melts in seconds.

When did we talk about fighters?

Either way no reason to argue with you. You are either a troll or a very dumb person. Ignoring you from now on.

So you admit cooldowns aren't longer than 10 seconds? That mages clear waves faster?

Violet Fields2 votes

{quoted}

WHAT COOLDOWNS ARE OVER 10 SECONDS IN THE CURRENT GAME?

Let me make it simple. Mages clear the wave faster.

And you're to decide basic attacks are skillless? Kiting isn't a skill? Auto spacing?

Azir Q, 15 seconds at rank one, and his wave clear is trash.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Azir's waveclear is auto auto attacks. That's pretty good.

Rank 1? Not talking that. Talking about teamfights and spell rotations.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

Lux says hello. Oh that's actually 20 since she needs 2 casts :p. You really are on a crusade against mages mate what wrong they did to you? I can't think of anyone that can waveclear with only a lost chapter on cool down. Oh, and they can't attack after said waveclear cause you know.. Cooldowns. Unless they are roaming bot of course, to give gold to the person actually using it. We might add killing a wave faster than an ADC was INTENDED for mages but since shyv even that advantage is lost for some

AirKingNeo2 votes

Are we talking lux's ult? In what world doesn't lux get 30% CDR.

I'm on a crusade to spread the truth.

ADCs kill waves slower than mages. Shiv was nerfed and refusing to realize this is not my issue.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

so, an ADC killing a wave with 3/4 autos and a mage having to use HIS ULTIMATE to do it (when the waveclear should be a thing mages ARE SUPPOSED to be better at than ADCs) looks fine to you?

Lux typical waveclear, since she can't ult every wave (well, maybe if she killed someone with that she can :p but then she's not killing the wave ) consists of: 1q to the approaching wave, 1 E to hit them all or all less 1, another E to finish off caster, finish meelees with autos. This is more then 20 seconds without cdr. With cdr it's going down a bit but still more then 10 seconds.

A Jinx can 2/3 (depending on if she crits) fishbones and caster wave is gone. I don't have any programs for register nor hosting or I would pass replay of a recent game where for some reason I had to clear several waves against enemy Jinx due to rotations..it was hilarious. At some point my Lulu support came to help me because I was loosing hp to cs to make them not crash under our low hp turret and even in 2 we were clearing slower then Jinx with IE+zeal+the other statick component, on our side an Archaengel staff + morello (so a completed item more then her) and an ardent for the Lulu.

If you have a problem with mages in general (as I see you are infesting any kind of thread that even mentions them) I highly suggest you play them for a while so you can actually understand what to do against them instead of loosing time on the boards bashing on mage mains. If you even want a really "bring the truth" opinion on the state of the class I even suggest you try the OP asf ones and then the struggling ones, like Lux or Syndra (not that they are really struggling on our elo because people suck hard at dodging stuff, but Lux waveclear problems are the same everywhere unless they send you 10/0 in first 10 mins so you come back with a completed Luden and gg xD)

I did so for the ADCs: played some Jinx, Tristana and some Ashe (before Tristy nerfs). I still think they are overtuned (well, not them..their items) but I feel the ADC mains who have to suffer the 4 men clown fiestas botlane before they are able to do anything in the game. And those nice full AP supports taxing farm and not peeling..or the tankless team while THEIR tank ccs you to death without noone of your teammates being able to do anything. Salt is bad, put yourself in the shoes of who you have a problem with.

PS: good luck for your promo!

[slayer-jinx-catface] [sg-lux]

DarkSunSovereign3 votes

Everyone perma waveclears everywhere. Also, it's a mage's role to provide waveclear lmfao.

FrostQueensPlane6 votes

When was the last time riot accomplished the pointless and meaningless "objectives" they set out for themselves. The answer is never. Talk is cheap and it's all riot's ever been good at.

MuffledGarbage6 votes

Be honest tho, Riot isn't ACTUALLY gonna fix botlane because that would require nerfs to ADCs, and Riot clearly wants ADCs to be the star of every team

xJLx MCHammer5 votes

That’s a horrible post

Doesn’t go into detail just some broad silly objective

Not gonna hold my breath

Thee Pie Man17 votes

"Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. " Literally was the first sentence. Stop skimming bro.

xJLx MCHammer3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thee Pie Man,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEMr6vJa,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-18T20:57:11.666+0000)

"Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks. " Literally was the first sentence. Stop skimming bro.

I know what he said.

I’m saying these things are dumb to post. Players are posting about XYZ being problems. Riot coming out and stating XYZ is a problem doesn’t mean squat

It’s like a politician. They always love stating what the issue is but they rarely come up with a resolution. Riot is pretty much doing the same thing. Players aren’t dumb; they see a problem. You just have to watch 2-3 weeks of ProPlay to see fundamental problems that are currently plaguing this game

I don’t need Riot to tel me ADCs spoke at 2 items. I don’t need them to tell me that they burst squishy champions. I just have to watch a few weeks of LCS to either see it myself or let the casters explain it (as they clearly have unknowingly)

So yes I stand by what I said.

Thee Pie Man10 votes

You stand by knowing that they weren't posting elaborate details and proceeded to complain about them not elaborating on details?

I think the idea that they say: "Oh hey you know XYZ problems? Yeah we're working on it and will give you more details when we have them."

What's wrong with that? They aren't telling people what those already know- they are telling people that those are exactly what's being worked on. I find it a bit ironic that you want more details on something that served its purpose as you're so describing. Riot has for years done it that way, has it worked every time? No. And it's completely different from politicians because politicians already get their money by check over and over due to a loyal fanbase for whatever party they are under so it's usually enough for them to just say obvious shit. Riot's team has to work for keeping a player base or otherwise they all lose their jobs. Completely different scenarios.

xJLx MCHammer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thee Pie Man,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEMr6vJa,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T21:46:55.652+0000)

You stand by knowing that they weren't posting elaborate details and proceeded to complain about them not elaborating on details?

I think the idea that they say: "Oh hey you know XYZ problems? Yeah we're working on it and will give you more details when we have them."

What's wrong with that? They aren't telling people what those already know- they are telling people that those are exactly what's being worked on. I find it a bit ironic that you want more details on something that served its purpose as you're so describing. Riot has for years done it that way, has it worked every time? No. And it's completely different from politicians because politicians already get their money by check over and over due to a loyal fanbase for whatever party they are under so it's usually enough for them to just say obvious shit. Riot's team has to work for keeping a player base or otherwise they all lose their jobs. Completely different scenarios.

I stand by it because this was a thing since pre season.... constantly acknowledging the problem, yet not doing anything for well over a year

KirotheImmortal5 votes

to me ir sounds like they are finaly fixing the different types of adcs and not having it one build for all.

Blåbæret4 votes

Still seems like they don't want to nerf ADCs, but nerfing mages is OK guys. Lmao. I'm done with this shit.

saltran1 votes

Agree, nerf mages more please

Stacona1 votes

Marksmen should be sustain damage dealers rather than burst champions. I would recommend doing a pass on marksmen and make everyone's passive and basic attack correspond together, meaning their attacks are entirely ratio focused rather than always dealing 100%AD, this means you can make them more or less ratio for their attacks and really balance the difference between an early game marksman and a late game marksman through mechanics that make them strong early, but weak scaling and other that are weak early but with strong scaling. Basically there is a way to balance marksmen the same as mages through ratios and that way THEIR unique element shines the best rather than whoever is the best basic attacker at the time.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

I fully expect this to somehow continue the powercreep. Adc players get their jollies by obliterating everything with their big damage at every point in the game, and even taking away burst-per-second would send them into a frenzy at this point.

If this actually fixes anything, there'll no doubt be some "compensation buffs" coming soon after.

Wînter Fox1 votes

I can see it now...

[{quoted}](name=Rito Games,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEMr6vJa,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:17:02.394+0000)

We felt ADCs were reaching...well, infinity levels of damage a bit too early, so we had to swing the nerf bat.

item 3031 Infinity Edge Cost: 3400 3500

[{quoted}](name=Rito Games,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEMr6vJa,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T16:17:02.394+0000)

However to make up for this massive nerf and to ensure ADCs remain fun and relevant in the early parts of the game, we created a new component for Infinity Edge!

New Item! Limit Approacher item 3123 +60 attack damage +15% critical strike chance UNIQUE: Critical strike bonus damage is increased by 49.99999...% Cost: 1200 [Marksmen & Yasuo only]

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