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Baron is a joke to kill and makes pro play very unexciting

Disembark··125 votes·9,388 views

I've been watching a lot of LCS and LCK recently, and I definitely see this in LCK more, but its too fucking easy to rush baron at 20 minutes.

Seriously, its not even like they have the best baron taking comps either. Like if you have Nunu/Azir/Vayne/Lulu then I'll be like, OK, you snuck baron at 20 minutes but the fact that you even got to that point is a miracle.

I just saw a play in SKT vs MVP where they were fighting at Infernal Drake and SKT actually LOST the fight as their support got picked off. MVP swoop in and claim the infernal drake... and SKT literally just walk to Baron and take it in a 4v5 before MVP can even get there (23:48 started, 23:58 finished - LITERALLY 10 SECONDS TO DO BARON). It honestly just felt like some cheese bullshit.

That's one of the biggest reasons blue side is so fucking OP right now - if the enemy jungler is farming raptors or enemy mid goes to clear mid, you can literally just sneak baron. It gets even more stupidly easy the longer the game goes on.

Edit: I don't know how to make this better and I'm not going to masquerade as a balance expert. I'm just trying to point out how it feels as a viewer.

72 Comments

rtbf22561824147 votes

Imagine if they swapped Baron out for Vilemaw.

Tails90162 votes

I haven't fought Vilemaw in any TT games, and I haven't seen how hard it is to kill him (her?), what's it like?

Drugoth9 votes

I mean, it takes a bit more time than baron, but you're also only 3 people so... meh?

500000000000000026 votes

The CC and AOE for Vilemaw is a lot more substantial than baron imo

Drugoth3 votes

True, his CC is impossible to dodge, unlike barons

Automated Riven9 votes

They need to upgrade Baron so it does the damage and shut from vilemaw. That guy hurts like a motherfucker.

Z3Sleeper6 votes

Let's just say she will absolutely tear people apart. That thing is a monster AND it's almost entirely AoE.

Flawless Fetus9 votes

What Baron should be. Lol. Vile has a variety of attacks and his cc ability is scary. He pulls anyone around him right on top of him. You know how some Baron fights involve Baron being aggrowed, but the teams are half taking baron and half fighting outside of the pit? Vile would pull all ten people on too of each other - on top of him.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

{quoted}

I haven't fought Vilemaw in any TT games, and I haven't seen how hard it is to kill him (her?), what's it like?

I played TT recently and Vilemaw may appear as a big boss that's hard to kill, he's still easy if you know what you're doing. You don't need 3 people to take it if two or one can leech HP a lot and can do damage (or on hit). I think the biggest offenders there would be Warwick, Rhaast and Azir. Vilemaw does actually appear to be stronger and deals damage (AoE as well) and can also pull you into his pit if you try to disengage to punish you with an unexpected deaths.

TT is a smaller map, you're still doing a map boss with 3 people and that also adds a degree of difficulty in taking him down. But the general rule of who gets to deal a lot of damage to him is still the same as with Baron on SR. It's just that you don't see Marksmen that often in TT games. But Vilemaw actually fights back harder than Baron so there's that.

MysteriousBootie4 votes

{quoted}

Imagine if they swapped Baron out for Vilemaw.

vilemaw > baron

cooler

Hópe43 votes

Unfortunately riot likes it that way

RiotRiotRepertoir25 votes

Generally agree for pro play specifically. They're so coordinated that frequently when they decide to do it, it's because they know they can melt it quickly. We've talked about adding some decaying up front defenses to Baron or increasing its mid game defenses or something of the sort, but we haven't committed to any direction.

If we do anything about this soon, we really need to be sensitive to the realities of normal play, where the differences in coordination on a team make this feel like less of an issue (not a non issue, just less).

darkdill2 votes

Sorry to hijack, but there's something about Baron and Dragon that I've wanted to suggest.

We've all had games where our team takes a huge risk to take out Baron, and then that damn Ezreal snipes it and steals the buff. While that might be "awesome plays", I find it far too close to cheating for my liking.

I've also been playing a lot of Heroes of the Storm, in which if you want to claim Mercenary camps, you not only have to defeat them but also stand in a small circle for about a second without it being contested. This way, if the enemy team really wants to steal it, they're gonna have to fight for it.

I'm wondering if a similar system could be worked into League for claiming Baron and Dragon rewards. Namely, you kill said boss monster, and then at least one of your team has to stand in a small circle for a brief time or channel on something briefly without being contested. This would be such that a Lee Sin can't cheapass steal the buff unless he actually fights for it. He could still steal the gold bounty by Smite-stealing, but not the buff; he'd have to team-fight for it.

Would this be healthier gameplay? Or is it an apples-and-oranges thing?

Electro5229 votes

I'd say it's an apples and oranges thing. The thing is......HOTS doesn't have Smite.

Being able to steal a Baron technically should never happen because of how powerful Smite is. If your jungler is competent enough, they will smite the Dragon/Baron exactly when it comes into range of their Smite, as well as use something else that will help them (such as Nunu consume).

Stealing the Dragon/Baron is not a sign of significance from the player who stole it, it is a sign of a screw up from the team trying to secure it. Get what I'm saying?

darkdill1 votes

HotS kinda does have Smite, but it's restricted to certain heroes who can bribe Mercenaries like Murky and Nova. However, in terms of bosses, yes, there is no "Smite" in HotS.

Still, I think that a circle-secure system would help more since a steal should not be due to a player screwup. It should be due to the opposing team staging a good team fight.

Electro5222 votes

I disagree. Look at every Baron steal ever made. They are made when the team trying to secure it does something wrong: the enemy jungler is able to jump into the pit and smite it; the jungler trying to secure it mis-judges the damage his smite would do, allowing a long range champ from outside the pit to take it (like your Ezreal example), etc., etc.

Your example of a team staging a good fight does not result in a steal, it results in the other team securing Baron, and several kills along the way. A steal is when one team does the majority of the damage to Baron, they screw up somehow, and it goes over to the other team. A secure is when one team completely forfeits the Baron/Dragon either due to lack of vision, lack of gold, or the fact that they just can't be there because they're dead.

Like I said "stealing" should technically be impossible. The only time Baron/Dragon is stolen is due to mistakes made by the team trying to secure it. This is why pro teams really like champs like Kalista or Cho'gath, becuase they provide an extra layer of security for the team. Hell, with new runes, one player could go Spell Book, switch over to smite, and provide even more security (though, this likely won't happen due to the support generally taking Spell Book, and them needing either exhaust, ignite, cleanse, or teleport).

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Giving it something like decaying defenses where it spawns at 20 very tanky but as it survives without taking damage it becomes slowly squishier could be an option.

Something like 200 base armor and magic resist decaying by 10/min so that a baron spawn rush can be better punished but letting the baron tick down it's defenses becomes a heavier risk reward. You can let it get low so you can sneak it, but this gives time for your enemy to get more gold, items, and pore really do their own sneak.

On respawn baron gains back it's base 200 stats and starts decaying again.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vlTAZjds,comment-id=00160001,timestamp=2018-03-24T19:53:52.785+0000)

Giving it something like decaying defenses where it spawns at 20 very tanky but as it survives without taking damage it becomes slowly squishier could be an option.

Something like 200 base armor and magic resist decaying by 10/min so that a baron spawn rush can be better punished but letting the baron tick down it's defenses becomes a heavier risk reward. You can let it get low so you can sneak it, but this gives time for your enemy to get more gold, items, and pore really do their own sneak.

On respawn baron gains back it's base 200 stats and starts decaying again.

I think he meant in-fight decaying defenses : aka Baron starts very tanky and progressively his armor/mr values get lowered, so that you can't melt it in a few seconds, you kind of need to be in combat with baron for long enough to deal decent damage to him.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I know. Mine is An alternative

Electro5223 votes

If I could suggest something from another game......Warframe to be exact.

Warframe has these enemies called "Sentients". These little suckers are SUPER annoying when you have to face them, because when you do, they gain a crap ton of resistances to whatever damage you deal to them, and really quickly. You can go from dealing well over 1000 damage per shot to them one second, to well under 10 damage the next. The only way to remove their resistances is to switch to a special character you can control that deals a special type of damage that is particularly useful against the Sentients. Once their resistances are removed, you can then switch back to your normal Warframe, and blow them up.

Perhaps Baron specifically (not dragon) could have something similar? Now, obviously, I don't mean for Baron to be as insane as the Sentients are, but what I mean is that Baron takes less damage the more you damage it. It'll gain either Armor or MR over time, eventually to a cap, depending on what is damaging it (so...basically, adaptive resistances). However, you would be able to reset the resistances by using Smite.

It would give a very interesting decision to teams. Burn down Baron quickly by smiting early? Or save Smite in order to secure it just in case?

If this change is to go through, however, I would also suggest to change Cho'gath's ult to deal magic damage to Baron/Dragon........because he would become mandatory in every pro game.

Kanzler4 votes

logged in just to say that idea is awful. having to use smite midway through just to be able to do damage?

LVL99 Helper TK2 votes

{quoted}

Generally agree for pro play specifically. They're so coordinated that frequently when they decide to do it, it's because they know they can melt it quickly. We've talked about adding some decaying up front defenses to Baron or increasing its mid game defenses or something of the sort, but we haven't committed to any direction.

If we do anything about this soon, we really need to be sensitive to the realities of normal play, where the differences in coordination on a team make this feel like less of an issue (not a non issue, just less).

joke response from a joke, charity case employee

Death by Glamour2 votes

Love how you say this now after you brute forced the changes through while ignoring us asking you not to do it

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Spoofghoul2 votes

I think the over abundance of % damage and penetration isn't helping baron not to forget about cheap crit items

And isn't helping tanks/juggernauts/fighters either, baron is like way more tanky then a tank will ever be and it get's nearly oneshot all the time not just pro play. Like everyone can do it pro players are just more decisive in doing so that is why it happens a lot more in pro play

I think this is more a damage issue then baron being to squishy imho

WarWork2 votes

have you guys tried to make barons attacks more impactful so taking Baron is less auto pilot? Basically with Baron all you need to think about is can you kill it before it kills you, where as with rift herald at least you have to dodge it's attacks

DarkKatalyst2 votes

I'm glad you guys know your game and understand the distinction between pro play and normal play. I don't watch or care for the pro play scene, I just want to play League and have fun.

Thefrostyviking20 votes

Would indeed be nice if it took a bit longer, it really feels bad to see enemy team go there then 10-15 seconds later while your own team is still moving in the jungle they are done and 1 second away from finishing their recalls.

And the buff is soo strong too, like Baron falls over like a house of cards then you have to deal with a proverbial hell for the next few minutes because of it.

Sasogwa16 votes

Maybe Baron should get like increased resistances for how many enemy champions are nearby. Would make the solo or duo barons (which are still quite long and very hard to do, require certain champions and builds) possible, but the 5 man barons less easy af

TotalJerk1 votes

Baron already decreases the resistances of the people it is fighting. If your team is caught doing it, the opposing team is SUPPOSED to be able to engage with a massive advantage and shred you. Doesn't really work out that way since it only reduces the resistences of the person it is actively auto attacking, though.

Stacona8 votes

What if Dragon and Baron pits were shifted over to the middle of the river and had two openings? This be a massive change and needs to remake the art work for the map to do so it would take awhile to do, but could be a solution to equalizing the map between blue and red sides.

MorgManBasher5 votes

They just need to lower the % damage baron can take, tbh

Certain champs just murder it too hard where it just disappears in seconds.

Professor Ward2 votes

{quoted}

They just need to lower the % damage baron can take, tbh

Certain champs just murder it too hard where it just disappears in seconds.

doesnt every % health ability in the game have a cap on monsters?

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Yes, generally at 400 which is still more than most % abilities will ever do to baron.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

The PVE should not be difficult, just like how towers fall easily. You need to stop PVE with PVP. If you don't actively defend Baron then Baron should fall.

Maybe that seems like it makes games uninteresting at top level, but top level games SHOULD be a steamroll. If I'm one of the best players in the world and I get a small lead, I should be able to snowball that into a few more kills and then the game.

Disembark4 votes

PvE should be enabled by PvP.

Right now people will legit just keep starting baron in 5v5s often times IN VISION without a gold lead because they know their Alistar/w.e. can knock the enemy jungler away, or they have better secure options (olaf/cho/kalista). Also they're already in 5v5 formation and EVEN IF the enemy has all 5 people there it'll take them a few seconds to get teamfight ready which is enough to rush down baron (or sacrifice your support or w.e. which'll take enough time to kill that you can rush down baron). That's what makes it so annoying.

I understand being forced to be in the top side of the map with baron... but constantly jacking off near baron literally not able to even deviate 2-3 seconds from the pit makes watching pro play so fucking stupid. I understand if Baron goes down quick at 35min+, but at 20minutes? Teams should have some leeway besides having to sit near baron pit 24/7.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

If four people can't take baron in ten seconds, then one person will never be able to solo baron. Soloing baron is a big power fantasy for jungle players.

There is a lot more communication being used in high level games, but how tough do you want baron to be, exactly? Should it take thirty seconds for a team to take it down? A minute? That's a bit insane, you would never get people risking it in solo queue then.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Also, about the only times a 20 min Baron dies in 15 seconds or less is if the taking team has 2 super barontakers, got a full 5 man on it, or got 2 Mountain Dragons.

In any of which cases, the non-taking team screwed up majorly by not accounting for that possibility.

Disembark3 votes

Riot has made it especially difficult to solo baron on purpose. But SIGNIFICANTLY EASIER to duo/kill as a team.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

That's not a problem. Baron should fall when it is challenged. It's very easy to defend baron as a team.

SweedishGunner1 votes

If a team is trying to baron at 20 minutes without blowing summoner spells and ults (Janna ult etc) that thing should be getting penta kills.

catastrophicSkil3 votes

This is true but it's a difficult thing to balance because baron is already a big risk to go for if its being contested and if it becomes too hard to kill then all of a sudden you have 50-60 minute games again because throw potential becomes too high and that is way more boring to watch and play

And in Solo Q you can forget about it I can't even get players to do baron at 30 minutes of the game we've killed 4 of the enemy players and we're ahead by like 10k gold.

Speeedy9 votes

tell me about it we killed the top and jungle yesterday had all 5 alive on top side (by blue buff), enemy adc was bot and instead of going for baron my team wanted to run it down mid i like beat my head against the desk trying to get people to listen to calls in solo Q its so frustrating because in silver people think kills > objectives

Yara03 votes

Yup basically every game i have to ping baron at 20 mins wether we are behind or ahead because its so fucking easy to take. Then i basically spend the rest of the game fighting the other support for vision control over it.

At this rate it so easy to take Duo lane is gonna have to move to top so we can control it the only reason we dont know is because towers die so fast we can just lane swap at 10+ mins.

SEKAI3 votes

The infrequent reminder that Elder Dragon is actually tougher than Baron.

And we all thought Baron is supposed to be THE raid boss of Rift. Guess not.

Poske2 votes

How easy baron is to take isnt even a problem

How coinflipy taht shit is unless you have nunu/Kalista is a problem

Disembark3 votes

Its only coinflippy if you let the enemy jg in the pit.

It shouldn't be coinflippy - it should be enabled after a teamfight win. However the reason it feels coinflippy is because teams will just insta-start baron in 5v5 without any advantages because it's a play that works 80% of the time even though it shouldn't.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

SKT literally just walk to Baron and take it in a 4v5 before MVP can even get there (23:48 started, 23:58 finished - LITERALLY 10 SECONDS TO DO BARON). It honestly just felt like some cheese bullshit.

Imagine this in soloQ, you would never be able to pull this off fast enough and people would refuse to follow the call anyway and then half of your team would directly run into 2 v 5 and you just waste the baron buff and lose a few more towers. LUL

I've had situation with baron and dragon up, enemy team clearly going for dragon and I tried to do a sneaky baron call, well no, your team would rather die in a desperate attempt to get dragon which they can't anyway. xD

Proxiee2 votes

Just make Baron into the epic fight that is Vilemaw. It should be hard to get and have a buff worth fight for. It is currently neither. You can just wait out baron and it only feels strong if you have a banner of command right now. On top of that, champions like mord, aatrox, yi, and jax can all healthfully solo the baron, some even with just two items.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Well, then there would be no point in having it spawn at 20 minutes, if teams weren't supposed to take it that early. Even if you do claim baron at 20 minutes, you probably don't have the ability to hard push afterwards, except if you are super far ahead, which again is the reason you probably got Baron in the first place.

Honestly, you compare the best teams in the world (in LCK) to how this probably affects soloQ. In soloQ, 20 minute baron, or early barons, will happen like 1% of the games, maybe even less, because it requires a lot of things falling into place. You probably need at least 4 people there, maybe at least one champion that has significantly high ability to take it down fast (Nunu, Azir, Kalista), a tank that people usually don't play, correct vision to do it safely and so many more things, that can happen in pro play, but in soloQ, it's way harder.

Therefore, I don't think Baron taking is any issue right now. If anything, it's probably one of the most balanced things from a risk/reward standpoint.

Ripikou1 votes

"Baron is a joke to kill and makes pro play very unexciting"

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