Why is "fun had" not part of balancing the game?

Disembark·4/7/2019, 2:40:56 PM·98 votes·19,271 views

Riot spews statistics about how "Riven isn't the most OP" or "Vayne isn't the most OP" and I'll admit that. Maybe there are champions like "more OP" statistically like Sona and Jinx.

But there's a reason you almost see no one bitching about Sona or Jinx - because you don't want to rip your hair out every time you play against them. Yeah, it's annoying when Jinx is strong and her W does so much damage: but the game is still enjoyable.

So why is Riot @ing us with these stats trying to prove to us that "Riven isn't OP". Guess what? Riven even being slightly OP is way more toxic for our enjoyment of the game than Jinx being busted as fuck. This is a game, not a stats class. Balance the game to be fun.

And I love that Riot is acting like "stats" are the only thing that matters when balancing champions. Yeah? Then why are Ryze and Ornn left to rot? Oh, pro play. So if we can dumpster some champions like Zac for being toxic in pro play, why can't we dumpster other champions for being toxic in SoloQ? I'd like that explanation.

Also I don't understand why they're so hesitant to nerf Riven or Vayne. So if being 52% win rate isn't enough to nerf them, then why were you so eager to buff Vayne 2 times in a row when she wasn't even bad (one of the only ADCs that survived crit changes due to bork+rageblade). Why not just revert the buffs you LITERALLY JUST GAVE HER. And Riven has ONLY seen buffs to her kit for 2+ years when she has never been that bad, ever. (believe it: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Riven/History )

Any random person could just blindly look at stats and nerf things based on them (uhh, this is 52%, nerf, this is 48%, buff). You are game designers. You should understand things at a deeper level. Balance to make the game as fun as possible. People meme about Rioters not playing the game, but they do play the game. Except they're so concerned about "personal biases" that they completely detach actual gameplay experience from their balance decisions and blindly follow stats. Obviously consult the stats. But also consult pro players/high elo streamers. Even take a hint from Reddit/boards. Also maybe even let personal biases shine through - be confident in your ability to balance the game. I see someone like @Riot Jatt who is clearly super intelligent about the game, but he's also someone thats very tied up in stats (Jatts Stats), that I can't even feel his impact on the balance team. Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. Everyone knows this.

I really felt this when the Rioter posted the stats with champion nameplates off asking the community for balance choices. It'd be very sad day if that's actually how they think the game should be balanced. Champion nameplates should be on. Some champions are inherently more problematic and require more immediate attention, even with lower win rates.

I know I'm going off about Riven/Vayne, but I don't have some personal vendetta against those 2. Just good examples of egregious balance choices Riot makes very recently. Stop trying to "argue" with the community. You know the stats and game better than us. If doing what you're currently doing is making the game better (increasing # of players). Then go right ahead. Ignore the boards/reddit/streamers. But if it's actually hurting the game - then maybe try and change something up?

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Obviously "fun had" is not an objective metric. However, subjective measures can still be used to balance the game. You can gather opinions from high elo players, pro players, and even poll the general populous to get information about it. Use all that data + the fact that you're professional game designers to try and fix things.

98 Comments

iTaLenTZ4/7/2019, 10:03:58 PM18 votes

Morello was the guy always looking after our fun. Ever since he left the game has progressively got worse.

ModWulf Helhammer4/7/2019, 3:40:18 PM16 votes

Because “fun had” is a subjective measure.

For every person that doesn’t have fun playing against x champion, there’s another that does. Likewise, for every matchup that isn’t fun for one champion, there’s another that goes the exact opposite way for another.

While this is a game, which are supposed to be fun, this is also a competition. You can’t put too much stake in balancing for subjectivity, as that won’t actually balance anything. All it does is enforce bias.

The fact that you believe this:

I really felt this when the Rioter posted the stats with champion nameplates off asking the community for balance choices. It'd be very sad day if that's actually how they think the game should be balanced. Champion nameplates should be on. Some champions are inherently more problematic and require more immediate attention, even with lower win rates.

Demonstrates that you don’t have the right mindset to be balancing anything. Balance is just that: balance. You don’t use personal bias to nerf something just because you don’t like it.

Stop trying to "argue" with the community. You know the stats and game better than us. If doing what you're currently doing is making the game better (increasing # of players). Then go right ahead. Ignore the boards/reddit/streamers. But if it's actually hurting the game - then maybe try and change something up?

And that’s precisly what they’re doing: trying to improve the game. The point of showing those blind statistics is to educate the player base, not to argue with them. It’s to help them understand in some aspect what balancing a game as complex as league actually entails.

You are game designers. You should understand things at a deeper level. Balance to make the game as fun as possible.

Are you not doing the same thing, except this time without the knowledge and skills of a game designer? All you are looking at is superficial aspects of “ban rates” or “fun”, ignoring if things are actually strong or weak.

Balance is to make things balanced. Sure, in some cases that may be what’s most fun. Other times it won’t be. If I’m playing Nautilus or Ashe against an Olaf, it feels like shit. But I know Olaf is designed like that in order to make those champs feel like shit. It’s what countering means. If I pick a carry top or an ADC like Kalista or Lucian, Olaf becomes much less of a pain point.

Kaisha4/7/2019, 7:03:07 PM12 votes

Cause RIOT doesn't care. Those 'excuses' are just that, excuses to shut you up. They have no merit, no relation to reality. All their decisions seem ridiculous until you realize THEY DON'T CARE; and then they all make perfect sense. They just make whatever random changes they want to, spew whatever random sht they hope will appease the masses and that's it. They aren't trying to fix, or break, or do anything, they're just fcking around.

Jennifer4204/7/2019, 8:03:15 PM10 votes

a champ being "fun" would require the balance team to play the game themselfes.

Wayward Fish4/7/2019, 7:18:27 PM9 votes

Because the word fun and its concept is subjective.

Abibyama II4/7/2019, 3:06:03 PM4 votes

These "pro play champs" also happened to be extremely overpowered in solo q in the past. Most of the time any thing that's good in pro play is probably busted in regular play too.

But I blame this more on the champion design team because any one not named CertainlyT gets away far too many time imo

I mean, sure the balance team been inconsistent and they even admit it themselves. But I get your point

Btw I think the game should be balanced in a more competitive way because "fun" is subjective.

Warpes4/7/2019, 5:06:45 PM4 votes

because fun doesn't matter once the game has a high enough population of addicted players throwing money at riot for skins

once it reaches that point, it's what keeps people frustrated but coming back for more punches in the face that matters most.

Crescent Dusk4/7/2019, 11:06:06 PM3 votes

Because "I didn't have fun" is not actionable feedback. Anyone on the losing side can claim they're not having fun. An ADC will always say that getting killed by an assassin or jungler without being able to 1v1 them is not fun. A tank will say fighting bruisers is not fun. Bruisers will say getting kited to death in teamfights is not fun. Assassins will say getting CC'd to death in teamfights is not fun.

Sir Saltarin4/7/2019, 3:49:38 PM3 votes

Because the "fun had" isn't a objective thing

I have fun playing MF and bullying lane, but I bet that the Vayne players dont have fun playing against MF.

While the Vayne players have fun going against Ezreal because she has a free lane, but the Ezreal players probably dont have fun playing against her.

And that with all champs and roles, etc etc.

Tin Obliterates4/7/2019, 7:22:42 PM3 votes

Oh, pro play. So if we can dumpster some champions like for being toxic in pro play, why can't we dumpster other champions for being toxic in SoloQ? I'd like that explanation.

Aatrox item 3070

Lolipoppers4/9/2019, 7:30:14 PM3 votes

Stats are definitely important. Quantitative information is necessary for balancing a game, especially for one as complex as LoL. But Riot seems to forget that for the gamer, the primary objective is to have FUN. Aside from good friends and champions whose stories/personalites/abilities we enjoy, improving our skills and outplaying our opponents is how we have fun. In order for this to work, we have to feel like our decisions and skill matters.

I think the reason champs like Zoe Yasuo Leblanc Irelia Riven Vayne and pre shroud nerf Akali are so universally hated is because they lack (or feel like they lack) counterplay. When LB pops you in 1 second then disappears, Yasuo dashes 6 times in 2 seconds and Vayne's % max hp true dmg is impossible to itemize against, it feels helpless. These mechanics feel infuriating even if you are highly skilled and comfortable on your own champion. Even if these champions were nerfed to 50% winrate, I doubt many players would consider these mechanics fun to play against.

I've been playing alot of Nunu lately and I think he is an example of amazing champion design. Whenever I fight against him, I feel that everything he does is not overbearingly oppressive and has counterplay to it, despite him being considered an S-Tier pick right now.

Q --> Healing cut/ range W --> Dodging/ Hard CC/ Creating or standing behind terrain E ---> Range/ requires skillshot with minimal damage to be landed first R ---> Interruptable by hard CC

When I don't dodge and get hit by a massive snowball I feel like I deserve it. On the other hand, interrupting his ult to save your team feels great. Steering his giant snowball through tricky paths can have skill expression at times, without being an overloaded or complex ability

I don't understand the growing trend of deluded game companies arguing with consumers, trying to tell the consumer what they really want. No, Riot should not cave to everything we say. The number of times Riot and other game companies continue to not only ignore avid fans, but to view obvious majority discontent as inconsequential. You would think that by maximizing "fun" Riot would retain loyal fans that continue to spend money on their game instead of competitors.

14daysuspensionk4/7/2019, 9:35:12 PM1 votes

I know that Riot can be biased with their decision making on balancing, but personally, probably because I'm in low elo, I find it very easy to play champions that are super low pickrate. Infact I have managed to get Mastery 7 on champions like Elise and Kindred, my current midlaners are AurelionSol and Anivia , 2 low pickrate midlaners. and even though ASol was gutted completely, I find no trouble at all to have a decent game with him.

Floupi4/8/2019, 11:57:47 AM1 votes

I stopped reading at "Sona OP"

This champ has not been playable for 2 years anywhere outside of very low elo. Only case you can pick her is :

  • when enemy picks a zero pressure lane and you get totally free scaling ( = autowin on sona, because that's how braindead riot made her over the years). This happens like 1/50 games. -When your premade plays Taric support and you go frostmancy Sona carry bot

Sorry i'm salty riot ruined my champ with some random hypercarry powercurve that doesn't fit at all to the support role (even more absurd that her power is locked behind LEVELS )

I also disagree that you don't want to rip your hair off when playing against Sona who somehow didn't lose at 15 . This is a stupid design and no matter how hard she feeds early, she autowins the game after a certain level (11 / 16 ) with ZERO counter play, this is kayle level's of braindead point and click hypercarry, no one can win a fight versus (5x300 aoe shield + 200 heal + 500 damage + movespeed halo) per 3 seconds, and there is absolutely no counter because you can't even assassinate her anymore with the ult + shield+ built-in exhaust passive + summoner spells + move speed + teammates cover + high burst from everyone. If you don't find her frustrating you are probably just bad at league of legends and don't see her impact

TL;DR : Sona Garbage unplayable champ ruined by failed reworks. But the few games where she is strong, she creates one of the highest frustration in the game. Revert/Rework please.

RANT

Kadexe4/8/2019, 3:55:33 PM1 votes
  1. Fun is very subjective. I don't tilt when I play against Master Yi, Yasuo, etc. because I know how to play against them. In fact I find matchups like Yasuo vs Riven to be a lot of fun when the players are even in skill.

  2. You're not considering the fact that those "frustrating" champions are really fun to play and the frustration caused to the enemy team is not that high. It's simply natural that people tilt a bit when they get outplayed.