Why I've been finding league less FUN to play and watch

Disembark··91 votes·6,194 views

If you've seen me around the boards, you might know that I usually defend Riot and their decisions - because I think they do a good job and don't get enough credit.

However, ever since last mid-season I've been slowly playing less and less, and having less fun watching competitive. I mean I remember first half of last season I'd grind SoloQ in my free-time, and wake up 4 AM on SKT or KT days to watch LCK. Now I'll just watch highlights, and I can digest Bo1s in the background. I barely play ranked anymore (just placements this season)

I think that Riot has made the game less fun over the years. I will not say the game is "less balanced" because I honestly don't think so. Maybe the game has evolved into something different, but I think the game is just a lot less fun. But it wasn't until very recently (mid season 7) and now season 8 where it started going drastically downhill.

It would be REALLY easy for me to jump on the ADC hate train and be like "OP for 7 seezons Rito nerf plz" but I don't think that's the problem - the game was VERY fun for me season 5/6/half of 7 and we still had ADCs there. It'd be easy for me to say "tunk meta rito nerf" let's not kid ourselves, tanks are always gonna be a good pick and LS explained why "tank metas" will never end - but that's not what makes it unfun (tanks should be a good, safe pick - but not top tier). It's something untangible, like I can't put it into words exactly - but I will try.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying it was perfect before, but I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more.


Preface The best series I ever watched? ROX vs SKT worlds 2016. Actually I liked Worlds 2016 a hell of a lot more than Worlds 2017.

Faker smashing other mids and creating pressure to solo-carry games. Smeb or Cuvee insta-deleting teams with their great positioning of Kennen. Peanut rolling over teams with his Olaf. PraY calculating damage/cooldowns and flashing into a 1v3 to secure the ace.

Notice why it was so great? Because individual players shined so much. It's so much fun to see your favorite player making the big game-winning plays. I'd say this was true even before MSI season 7. You still saw Smeb's Fiora taking over games. Huni getting 90K damage on rumble with nutty ults. Faker 1v3ing with his Katarina.

Now? It feels like either a) It's too risky to try to do ANYTHING because it'll get snowballed b) Fuckfest where teams ram their heads at each other in coin-flip teamfights, just taking 5 barons because its gone by the time they can contest.

It just isn't fun to watch... it doesn't feel like the better team is winning - it just feels like whoever won a coinflip even teamfight won the game (not ALL the time - but a lot more than before)


Damage is too high Tanks don't feel tanky anymore. Carries feel EVEN squishier.

I think that this is a root problem for what's to come (I will talk about it later), but in itself it also makes the game less fun to play.

It makes the game a kill or be killed situation - which is fun for no one. Now I'm not a Jax/Darius/Renekton player, but I did play my share of Hecarim/Volibear/Udyr. You can INSTANTLY tell the difference in playstyles from early season 7 to now.

In early season 7 I would go in as Hecarim, chunk someone, try to get a good ulti off, and pump out a few 3-5 man Qs to soften up the enemy team. Or with Udyr, I'd run in with my shield, drop a flame on their team, and go out before they broke my shield (if you played Udyr well, you DIDN'T even need health items because you'd in/out with your shield and be tanky).

Now? If I go in as Hecarim, I try to chunk/1-shot an important carry, and then I have to either ult their carries or more often ULT OUT. Seriously. even with ghost AND E I will not cover enough units before I die, building ALMOST FULL TANK (besides triforce); I SHOULD be able to eat 1 sec CC without dying. Or with Udyr, I NEED to build health because even if I try to drop a flame on their frontline, I will get insta-chunked for half my health - god forbid I get CC'd. So now its just better to build Tiger and try to 1-shot people point & click. Fun & interactive gameplay.

To feel tanky now, you NEED some bullshit % damage reduction OR an item that doubles your god damn health. Seriously.

In terms of competitive - it makes it FAR FAR too risky to siege like you did before. I mean before if you had a 10K gold lead the game was pretty much over. Now? At least in a competitive environment they simply can't siege. 30 seconds into the siege, both teams hit each other for 80% health in like 1 second (even on tanks). Suddenly both teams have to base - but the defending team has base advantage so the siege epicly fails. Creating a 90min fuckfest.

P.S.: Nerfing crit isnt' the solution. Top tier ADCs are still Varus/Kog (rageblade/bork/wits end, if runnans is too expensive they'll skip it too). Jhin/MF and other lethality users will take Trist/Twitch's place.

IMO crit should be removed from the game and ADC itemization reworked - its no fun for anyone. It pigeonholes ADCs into full glass-cannon builds which makes it so team reliant and stressful to play, and to play against. You can't diversify your build without giving up SO much damage - so its not worth it to let's say... build Randuins if you're having a lot of trouble. e.g.: if you take Merc over BT even, thats 15 AD, aka 15 * 2.5 (crit) * 2.5 (atk speed) = 93.75 damage PER SECOND (or 500 DPS if you built randuins intead). Instead if ADCs scaled linearly, it would simply be 15 damage (or 80).


Splitpushing is no longer a viable strategy - in turn makes bruisers/assassins weak

I see a lot of posts talking about why assassins and bruisers are weak. I'm sure they have their itemization problems etc, but honestly triforce has... always been this expensive. Assassin builds are fairly cheap.

There's a reason assassin winrates/play rates as well as bruiser win rates/play rates drop as you get higher elo - because the higher elo you go (as we all know) the less effective split push gets.

Riot has been moving away from splitpush for ages now, but right now its worse than ever. Bruisers/Assassins were NEVER good in teamfights (at least compared to tanks) - and when they were, they were overtuned as shit. But assassins/bruisers biggest strategy was to splitpush and draw valuable teamfight target to a side lane - and potentially 1v1 them (or escape a 1v2). Like at what point was zed considered good at teamfighting? Never. He just sat in a sidelane and maybe? flanked but mostly tried taking turrets. Same with the likes of Jax/Fiora/Renekton.

The problem lies with

a) Damage being too high - as I stated before. Even with TP if your team gets engaged on properly - its often too late for you to make any meaningful difference, they're already dead.

It's not that splitpushing is COMPLETELY gone, you still see it. But often its more of like a "semi-splitpusher" which pretty much gets lane priority but its only useful to get deep vision/pressure around baron - its not like they invest a lot into the splitpush itself (getting tier2 is unlikely, inhib tower is suicide).

a-b) Turrets being weak - I will go over this later, but I will explain that it has nothing to do with turrets being weak, but rather also caused by damage being too high. It makes it too easy to dive your team 4v5/they have to give up the turret. This is more SoloQ than competitive (where waveclear is broken and people are deterred by the fact that teamfights are so coinflippy with the damage and your carries being instagibbed is a possibility).

PS: I do not think bruisers don't need any other help. It's not about them being good/bad - its about their playstyles being stripped from them and making them unfun to play - whether they are good or bad doesn't mater.


Turrets are too weak

This has nothing to do with turrets being too weak - please do not buff turrets!!!

It is caused by damage being too high. Let's be honest, turrets under 2+ man sieges, especially after early game, have ALWAYS fallen pretty quickly. Also turrets have never done that much damage. Seriously. They also still do a fair bit of damage. The problem isn't the turrets tankiness/damage - its HOW EASY it is to dive them/poke you out of them.

So what do I mean here? Well when damage was lower - the enemy would take 3-4 tower shots trying to kill you because they couldn't apply their damage fast enough. Or maybe a late-game 5v5 dive a tank might have to tank an actual 15+ shots which is quite a lot. Now? You get insta-gibbed while the tower only has time to dish out 1, maybe 2 shots. Of course it doesn't "do damage" when its only dishing out 1-2 shots. The solution IS NOT to increase tower damage, it is to lower champion damage.

Let's not even fucking begin to talk about all the tower rest mechanics that have been introduced recently. Just to name a few:

Kled passive, Camille ult, Reksai ult, Eve ult, Kayn ult, Ekko ult, TK eat. Also stopwatch. Fun.

TL;DR: Solo skill expression has been taken out of the game and made into a team reliant game. Sadly Bruisers/Assassins do not fit into this picture properly, and of course ADCs will be the centre of attention because they are the most consistent form of reliable damage (and always have been, but it didn't matter before because you weren't FORCED to teamfight and had different macro strategies).

This is not a post about balance, I won't claim that the game is less balanced now than before - but it is less fun

I might've missed something or maybe even misinformed you, and please feel free to correct me. These are just my thoughts as an invested league player

There is so much more I'd want to talk about, but I don't have the time right now. Thanks for reading.

75 Comments

Salson32 votes

Every season Rito makes changes that make you more dependent on your team to succeed.

Can't say I find it fun, especially as Top 'the lone wolf lane' will obviously struggle in such environment.

Rito just can't seem to get that for a lot of people, relying on others isn't fun.

WolfChases6 votes

Exactly! Look at my last 4 ranked games. There is no way I coul carry.

TPA Jason1233 votes

Bruisers haven't had an update in ages. Most of the Meta Shifts in the top lane is usually depending on items.

Salson2 votes

They changed Jungle a lot though. By making Jungle give more early game pressure, they drastically weakened solo laners, by forcing them to rely more on their Junglers.

On the other side, you had some high Elo Junglers complaining that they 'have' to gank and provide pressure for their teammates, instead of gathering them for themselves. Thus they couldn't solo carry either.

The Drakes are the biggest example/issue. A Jungler who focuses Drakes will be individually weaker than a Jungler for farms camps, but will have a buff for 5 people. He will probably influence the game more, but he still needs his teammates to properly use that power. Likewise, a laner can just lose because the enemy Jungler provided an Infernal buff or two to his opponent.

We are too reliant on each other to succeed, and I for one don't like it.

Happy Ward18 votes

Stopwatch makes league less fun to play [sg-janna]

DNFVixen9 votes

{quoted}

If you've seen me around the boards, you might know that I usually defend Riot and their decisions - because I think they do a good job and don't get enough credit.

However, ever since last mid-season I've been slowly playing less and less, and having less fun watching competitive. I mean I remember first half of last season I'd grind SoloQ in my free-time, and wake up 4 AM on SKT or KT days to watch LCK. Now I'll just watch highlights, and I can digest Bo1s in the background. I barely play ranked anymore (just placements this season)

I think that Riot has made the game less fun over the years. I will not say the game is "less balanced" because I honestly don't think so. Maybe the game has evolved into something different, but I think the game is just a lot less fun. But it wasn't until very recently (mid season 7) and now season 8 where it started going drastically downhill.

It would be REALLY easy for me to jump on the ADC hate train and be like "OP for 7 seezons Rito nerf plz" but I don't think that's the problem - the game was VERY fun for me season 5/6/half of 7 and we still had ADCs there. It'd be easy for me to say "tunk meta rito nerf" let's not kid ourselves, tanks are always gonna be a good pick and LS explained why "tank metas" will never end - but that's not what makes it unfun (tanks should be a good, safe pick - but not top tier). It's something untangible, like I can't put it into words exactly - but I will try.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying it was perfect before, but I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more.

I find that it isn't crit that is the problem when it comes to adcs or even ad champions, the reason why the game went downhill fast is the leathality update, after the introduction of leathality a lot of the strategy about ad early and lategame champions went out the window. Think about it, bruisers started just stacking leathality and going assassin because it made going through armor a lot more easier, ad assassins just shred everything WAY earlier, and ADCs are now stacking leathality themselves for the same reason. There was a huuuge post by a diamond rank toplaner who went into full details about why leathality is ruining the game he even explained how leathaity destroyed the early game late game aspect of AD champions and how they only scale now. Tell me when you go into champion select when picking an AD champion do you even think "this is an early game champion they will scale early but die off late game" or "this is a late game champion they will be weak early and scale hard late game"? No not unless you are playing someone like talon or zed, even then they don't fall off they just have to play safer late game due to grouping.

The main culprit of shit going down since preseason is the new runesystem, it did nothing but give a SHIT TON of free damage, i am not talking about a small amount of free damage I am talking a TON of free damage that only gets worse as you get more kills/assists thus helping the player snowball even harder.

The last 2 years have had TERRIBLE things done to league that have steadily ruined the game for a lot of the playerbase. Last year the ammount of thinking involved with league went downhill, after the runeupdate there is 0 fucking thinking involved with league.

Nipsahoy7 votes

I think it's more of the fact that games get out of hand too quickly. I'm playing bot. Caitlyn(me) and zilean verus Jhin/nami. Zilean gets hit by one nami bubble, gets hit by her bouncing ability, arcane comet, jhin deadly flourish, grenade and 1 auto. He died in that combo at level 3. Seems a bit much to me. Then I get zoned off the farm and get behind. Jhin gets duskblade early. Now if you get hit by any CC you just die immediately. I also can't play Caitlyn the way I used to. I'd harass them using her longer range and use traps to zone out areas and control the wave and push them in. Now they can sustain up so easily with fleet footwork that it feels like that advantage is simply gone.

The new runes imo have been a terrible addition to the game they give some champs too much power to cover up weaknesses that they were design to have as a way for counterplay and to nullify advantages of other champions. Some of them are far too good with certain champs as well that make them damn near broken. You can be winning in cs and kills and still be behind another champ in gold because of their rune choice... the hell? You don't get rewarded for winning lane sometimes.

I'm not a great player by any means but I was platinum last season playing a fair amount of champs. Jinx/Caitlyn/Lux/Syndra/Orianna/Taliyah/Thresh/Braum are the main ones I played and some of those champs just feel incredibly weak now. Why ever pick Syndra or Lux when you can play Vladimir and be way harder to kill, do way more damage (and it's far easier to do damage on Vladimir) have a solid laning phase and scale and heal ridiculously well. It's not that those champs suck it's just that some champs synergize way too well with the new changes so they become oppressively strong.

Lethality is also stupid. Once some champ gets duskblade they become damn near impossible to stop as a squishy character because you die soooooooo fast you can hardly react to anything now.

SweedishGunner6 votes

Tanks are tanky though, I wish people would stop saying this, if they weren't tanky they wouldn't be picked every game.

Edit; I do agree with your general point though.

Disembark7 votes

Not compared to how tanky they used to be.

The only reason they get to be so tanky is cause of stoneplate.

Crystalysk5 votes

I've been around since s3 and really enjoyed the game until the end of s6 and early s7. Howerer after that i started to lose interest in the game and i started to play less and less until i quitted for 2-3 months, came back the day after s7 finished and played the whole pre-season. I found out that too many things have changed and too many champions are not playable at all.

I still remember those days when i could play a lot of different champions, now every lane has its 3-4 champions worth to play and that means there isn't variety anymore. Playing LoL became a stress and wasn't fun anymore so i decided to quit again the day before s8 started.

That said i don't complain anything to Riot, they need to update the game and introduce new things and more champions to attract new players. I just think i'm part of an old generation that is used to play the "old" version of the game and can't adapt to the new one.

Just my 2 cents

Nea1045 votes

Absurd damage, shameful matchmaking.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

I think another problem lies in how shit it feels like to play the moment you stray away from the meta-- even in low elo. Not picking the "optimal" choice has became much more disadvantageous than doing the same in the past.

I know, old example, but if you're picking an non-enchanter during the Ardent meta, you're on your way to a free loss. If that's not enough, picking an enchanter that's supposedly "meta" but if you're not rushing that same item the very first thing and that you're not playing the very same playstyle that you're "supposed to" also grants you a massive disadvantage.

I could bring more examples but I guess this could also fall under the category of "damage being too high". But games are no longer fun because there's no point in trying to figure out your own ways to play and have fun with it, you can only sit and wait for high elo players/pros to come up with something and follow it-- or else you're "trolling". Playing "offmeta" back then used to be not that disadvantageous in low elo, and that's telling us a lot.

BigBellBrute4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Hinbt77N,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-01-28T08:41:55.414+0000)

I think another problem lies in how shit it feels like to play the moment you stray away from the meta-- even in low elo. Not picking the "optimal" choice has became much more disadvantageous than doing the same in the past.

I know, old example, but if you're picking an non-enchanter during the Ardent meta, you're on your way to a free loss. If that's not enough, picking an enchanter that's supposedly "meta" but if you're not rushing that same item the very first thing and that you're not playing the very same playstyle that you're "supposed to" also grants you a massive disadvantage.

I could bring more examples but I guess this could also fall under the category of "damage being too high". But games are no longer fun because there's no point in trying to figure out your own ways to play and have fun with it, you can only sit and wait for high elo players/pros to come up with something and follow it-- or else you're "trolling". Playing "offmeta" back then used to be not that disadvantageous in low elo, and that's telling us a lot.

The ironic thing is all these changes were supposed to give everyone different paths they could take. It had the opposite effect.

Modl Ryden l3 votes

I've been sick of the tank meta for so long now. All you see are wet noodle fights when you could have had carry lanes have 1v1 out plays. There's also that annoyance of early high base damage that tanks have. Tanks are too safe of a playstyle to make it any fun to play or watch.

Sõna3 votes

I miss the old rune and masteries. The new rune reforge system is creative and fun yet not balanced and optional. The passive adaptive stats are so spontaneous where it's less valuable comparing to the old rune. I used to check Mobafire over and over to see what type of rune setup they used for their champion. But the current rune reforge for every role is solid, everyone's runes are pretty much almost the same, no more unique or room discussions. Hence I quit Mobafire guides and use the same rune page for every support except tank support.

Especially Inspiration tree that contains free stopwatch or free boots which are so overrated. While Minion dematerializer (for tank) seem to be such a good rune but I had to give it up for a free boot. I wanted to take celestial body for Soraka, but Cosmic insight is too strong. I honestly hope they will buff up some defensive runes or add some utilities to be available..

Lethality items are strong, low costs yet best stat could be possibly provided. Same as ADC's crit items and support's utility items, low costs yet strong. Tank's item are in fair price but bruiser(which now is the least played role) has the most expensive items price next to mages. As most of the board reader here hates enchanters who could counter play enemy, there is a situation to describe how bruiser do

Case 1: A bruiser be an engager and started to get in the fight but ended up being CC-ed by support or Jungle, they are pretty much dead fish, Case 2: A tank be an engager and started to get in the fight but Aftershock perfectly denied most of the damage yet doing more damage than bruiser with their HP scaling skills. Conclusion: Yes I am a support player(the enchanter support who hate the most), but I want to help and talk about top lane bruiser Solution could be like giving some similar buff like Mikael's Crucible for Mercurial Scimitar "the incoming 3 second or shorter, provide some tenacity depends HP or stuff" it could be a solid buy or overpowered, but that depends on how it works on game when CC is the dominator of this game.

Current meta is way too punishing. Casual players like me, who might not able to dodge skillshot and get killed with one mis-positioning is just too frustrated. If they could add some unique passive for summoner spell, or other additional features to keep a champion balanced. I would be grateful.

Fear the Kayn3 votes

Honestly I think ADCs just need an entire class redesign. I don't think you can make any changes to the game without addressing ADC power first.

MirrorU2 votes

There are so many aspects of this game that they simply never fixed that they have to redo the structure of the game to make it work correctly, and they won't. Here's what they're doing, they're band aiding a gushing wound, so what's happening is the game just keeps breaking further and further every patch and becomes more unstable and you have things like people 1 shotting at early game or 1 team fight snowballing the entire round.

D4M2X02 votes

riot purposely makes bruisers not that strong cause they have assassination power and situational build paths. what can you do vs fiora/jax/irelia/camille etc when they are the ones that shine? they snowball way too hard

Disembark8 votes

What I'm saying is that Riot has pushed the game in a way where fighters can't be good because of how reliant we are on teamfights.

In the current state of the game, for Fiora to be good she'd have to be a 1v5 draintank quasi-assassin monstrosity like she was before. That's because to be good in teamfights as a MELEE CARRY you need to be able to be in RANGE of 5 people to damage/cc you, but STILL SURVIVE. To make that possible, the champion has to be disgustingly overtuned.

What I'm saying is, is that they should shine in splitpush situations and they still do. Problem is, splitpushing has become less and less viable as time goes on, and as you get higher elo.

Like the only reason Camille is even good in competitive right now, is that she wins the 1v1 with W procing comet. Also she has a 100% pick potential with her ult. However when KZ Khan counterpicked it with Fiora, he smashed - so we can see that Fiora is STILL GOOD if she's put in a situation where she has to win the 1v1 or the 1v2 - but NOT GOOD when the enemy team just forces teamfights on you.

I'm not saying fighters/bruisers/assassins are bad - just that they're not as fun to play because of the reliance on teamfights. They have different playstyles than before and less agency on the game - but that's true with EVERYONE. It feels like each individual player has less agency.

Maybe that's what Riot wants.

LemurMonster2 votes

I hate being forced to get any health items just to not get burst so easily.

OP Garen Support2 votes

You summed it up pretty good. ADC deals way too much damage, no solo skill expression on midlane you are worthless if you are camped by the enemy jungler. Most problems would be fixed if ADC items were hit with the nerf hammer hard.

DPS > Tankiness >Burst >DPS this structure has to come back if we want to have fun games again.

LaytonApprentice2 votes

I found the juggernaut patch to be more fun than season 8... and I'm an adc main. Give me back those days where skarner had 70% winrate.

DiG JJ1 votes

You clearly haven't fucking played Dota if you're complaining about instantly deleting someone. But sure, the game has fuck-all mechanics now to make any sort of plays. I don't think its about the damage however.

DNFVixen10 votes

[{quoted}](name=DiG JJ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Hinbt77N,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-27T15:38:54.115+0000)

You clearly haven't fucking played Dota if you're complaining about instantly deleting someone

Yet dota is more balanced then here, and their turrets matter. (been playing it)

ArfBarkBoof5 votes

[{quoted}](name=DiG JJ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Hinbt77N,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-27T15:38:54.115+0000)

You clearly haven't fucking played Dota if you're complaining about instantly deleting someone. But sure, the game has fuck-all mechanics now to make any sort of plays. I don't think its about the damage however.

There is literally no hero in Dota who can instantly delete somebody. While there are characters with high base damage on their ultimates like Lina and Lion, they come at a pretty taxing mana cost and have high cooldowns of it.

JarodDempsey1 votes

instantly? probably not, but effectively instantly? hell yeah, so many burst characters aka like 30% of the roster at least, literally just use an item to appear behind you and then cc you and half your hp is gone before youre turned a quarter around, by the time you get turned far enough to use any skills to defend yourself youre basically guaranteed dead. The very often lack of counterplay in dota2 effects deletion by numerous heros even if their damage isnt super instant. Primarily it's the turning mechanics, vision mechanics, and blink dagger.

LordOShade1 votes

What exactly are you considering burst? Yes there are burst characters in DotA but that comes at a price, which usually means they have horrible wave clear due to how the Mana system works in DotA and horrible disengage.

Even then, in DotA your expected to build defense items. You go a full build offense build on a carry like Phantom Assassin or Juggernaut, you're going to be in for a rough time, unless your opponents are idiots and pick heroes without hard cc.

JarodDempsey1 votes

Basically anything that allows for little to no counterplay before doing major damage to a target. In dota2 burst tends to be a lot longer than in lol due to lack of counterplay. Also i'm not super familiar with juggernaut but phantom assasin can go full offense and roll people even if they have cc simply because of the turning mechanics. They literally just blink directly behind their target and its like a free stun because of turning rate.

ArfBarkBoof1 votes

{quoted}

instantly? probably not, but effectively instantly? hell yeah, so many burst characters aka like 30% of the roster at least, literally just use an item to appear behind you and then cc you and half your hp is gone before you're turned a quarter around, by the time you get turned far enough to use any skills to defend yourself you're basically guaranteed dead. The very often lacking counterplay in dota2 effects deletion by numerous heroes even if their damage isn't super instant. Primarily it's the turning mechanics, vision mechanics, and blink dagger.

Virtually everything in Dota 2 has a counter to it. If you're being crowd controlled to near death by enemy abilities and not items like Basher or Monkey King Bar's proc effects buy a Black King Bar. It gives you extra beefiness and an initial ten-second immunity to all magic damage, leaving only physical attacks and pure damage able to affect you. If you're dying that much due to vision then you need to buy wards as part of the game, just like this one, is vision control.

You can argue that Dota 2 is more imbalanced than League because of fed Agility carries deleting people end game like Phantom Assassin but it's no real different than somebody like Zed jumping on you from out of nowhere with Youmuu's, Duskblade, Electrocute and a combo to murder pretty much any squishy character in League.

JarodDempsey1 votes

Bkb is expensive af and offers nothing else of value to most squishies aside form that single effect which btw as you mentioned does absolutely nothing to protect you against physical damage which is still a huge number of bursty champs in dota 2, that along with it doing nothing to prevent the effective cc caused by turning rate plus the fact that spell immunity works against allied and self spells also make it rather useless in most situations.

Vision doesnt mean anything when you can lay down 1 truesight ward which will give you like a negligible warning against someone with a blink dagger while costing you significant gold and also youre rarely in one place long enough in dota 2 for it to be of much use since it's stationary. I mean yeah there are dusts and that vision orb item but dusts are really inneficient and the orb item not only has only 900 range but also can be taken by enemies if when you die.

And it's completely different than zed because stasis provided by hourglass gives way more counterplay against people like him. Additionally the item provides respectable bonuses aside from the active and has a cost competitive with many 3rd teir ap items. Alternatively theres also qss and ga. Bkb would be useless against someone like zed, i mean sure you could dispell his ult but that doesnt stop all of his other damage, the only other defensive utility squishies have in dota 2 is like glimmer cape which wastes an entire slot for a delayed invisibility effect.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

I will not say the game is "less balanced" because I honestly don't think so. (...) Proceeds to explain why the game isn't balanced. (...) This is not a post about balance, I won't claim that the game is less balanced now than before - but it is less fun

Cool thread, OP.

Disembark5 votes

How am I explaining how the game isn’t balanced? I’m talking about how the game hass CHANGED/evolved and why I find it not fun.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s “unbalanced“. Seems like people on boards have no idea what balance means.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

How am I explaining how the game isn’t balanced? I’m talking about how the game hass CHANGED/evolved and why I find it not fun.

You are arguing that a candle doesn't shine, but removes the darkness.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s “unbalanced“. Seems like people on boards have no idea what balance means.

Now tell me that Kog'Maw having 57% winrate at 15th minute it's not about balance.

Actually I know what "balance" means, a state of equilibrium, I just haven't seen any in LoL for at least 2 years.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Consider why he has that winrate though.

Every single marksman who was ever considered a lanebully was nerfed to kingdom come, gold generation was increased and frontline tanks and defensive supports like lulu were also buffed.

What does kog need to succeed?

He needs peel, he needs a lot of peel, and he needs gold and levels.

Tanks offer great peel, supports like lulu do not only peel, they give him free damage, and laning is so safe that kog´s don't have to worry about getting run outa lane.

And here we are today, with kog being the boss of all the marksmen, if this is any indication then we are in fact moving backwards to the style we had under the ardent censer meta.

Where everyone just farms their first 1-2 items then goes to teamcomp the other side to death, or if that fails, rotate like mad in hope something happens.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

Does he really need peel if he can 4-shot a fed assassin or a mage before they get in range to damage him?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Kog doesnt have that much range, and certainly does not have that much damage unless he has rageblade fully stacked from the start.

And if said mage or assassin has ninja tabi then he needs 5-8 shots.

Only time kog stands any chance at winning 1v1 is with rageblade fully stacked, full health and enemy being kiteable while lacking high burst or some kind of fatal rotation like Vi´s.

So he beats mainly other marksmen and slow melee who cant reach him.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

I'd be willing to believe you if I - as a Syndra of higher level and with two items - wasn't literally 4-shot by a Kog Maw with only BotRK before I even got QE off.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha D Reptile,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Hinbt77N,comment-id=000c0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-28T15:06:46.931+0000)

I'd be willing to believe you if I - as a Syndra of higher level and with two items - wasn't literally 4-shot by a Kog Maw with only BotRK before I even got QE off.

Dude, your amount of bullshit is staggering.

Only botrk, 4 shot from full health as Syndra before you could even Q-E, an animation that takes less than 1,5 seconds to do if skillfully done.

If kog got botrk early he´d have it at 13-16 minutes, at which time you´d be around level 8-11.

Basic auto damage at level eight, 79, botrk gives 40, for a total of 119.

Then 8% of your current health per shot, and 28% of your max health over the 4 shots from his W.

Syndra health at 10, 1219.

kog base AD damage 119x4 =476. AD

1219 x 0,28 =341' Magic damage

The botrk damage, starts off with 97 per shot but is reduced as you lose health to a minimum of 15 damage, which he´d be about on the third shot if you are to be belied.

So i´ll just hapzardly write 97+73+48+20 =238.

714 AD damage and 341 magic damage, before resistances, syndra base armor at level 10 is 50 and base mr is 34, now 50 armor = 35% AD damage reduction and 34 MR is about 22% AP reduction.

714 x 0,65 =464

341 x 0,78 =265

Total damage =729.

At that level with only botrk for an item he´d have around 1,1 attackspeed.

So not only did kog miraculously do 490 bonus damage of something, he even got 4 auto attacks of in the span of 1,5 seconds despite his approximate 1,1 attackspeed, a feat not even faker could pull off.

I am quite sorry to say that the conclusion here is that you either played against a hacker, which is honestly a frustrating and sad thing, or you are greatly exaggerating events or just lying right up.

Please do not insult me with this kind of biased and ridiculous nonsense that anyone who´s ever done basic math could easily prove wrong.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

[Math]

Account for the fact he did the first attack before I realized he was in range to do so.

Dude, your amount of bullshit is staggering.

Please do not insult me with this kind of biased and ridiculous nonsense that anyone who´s ever done basic math could easily prove wrong.

Reality doesn't care about your feelings. I know what I've seen and I couldn't believe it either, but then he did that a second time.

I regret not downloading that replay, I truly do, but I can't do anything about it now, because it was two weeks ago.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Account for the fact he did the first attack before I realized he was in range to do so.

He still needs 4 full seconds, your stun takes 1,5.

That leaves 3 seconds to react, and a lot of health unaccounted for.

Reality doesn't care about your feelings. I know what I've seen and I couldn't believe it either, but then he did that a second time.

League damage is fundamentally a numbers game, and the numbers prove that beyond any doubt it´s impossible for kog to not only kill you with 4 auto attacks, he needs more than 4 seconds from start to finish.

You can claim as much as you want that it happened, but math proves that there is no way for your claim to be possible, botrk only kog 2 levels under a Syndra cannot kill said Syndra in less than 4 seconds, nor can he do it with only 4 auto attacks.

I regret not downloading that replay, I truly do, but I can't do anything about it now, because it was two weeks ago.

If i had to guess, then you either had taken a significant amount of damage before, around 490, or kog maw got at least 2-3 auto attacks off on you before you even started to Q at him.

There is no other explanation that exists, you can claim it as much as you want otherwise but facts will remain.

Just the same as if a mage with a ability that deals 500 damage will always deal 250 damage with said ability against a target with 100 MR unless something acts to boost his damage, like a kayle having hit the target with her passive and wits end, or some rune.

But before you clamor off about runes, there is no rune that does that much damage so early, 490 health is simply a far too large amount.

And it's utterly impossible that he got 3 auto attacks off in 1,5 seconds with only 1,1 attackspeed, that does not happen, it can't even happen unless he was literally hacking.

You sure you haven't forgotten something? Like a support, or minions or enemy poke?

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

You can claim as much as you want that it happened, but math proves that there is no way for your claim to be possible, botrk only kog 2 levels under a Syndra cannot kill said Syndra in less than 4 seconds, nor can he do it with only 4 auto attacks.

I really need to save all highlights for non-believers like you.

If i had to guess, then you either had taken a significant amount of damage before, around 490,

Last time I checked you respawn with full HP.

or kog maw got at least 2-3 auto attacks off on you before you even started to Q at him.

The moment the first attack hit I realized I can't simply ignore him. The moment the second attack hit I was almost done throwing QE. The moment the third attack hit (and my QE hit him) I realized it's impossible for me to kill him so I Flashed. The moment the fourth attack hit I realized I wasted Flash and dropped dead.

And it's utterly impossible that he got 3 auto attacks off in 1,5 seconds with only 1,1 attackspeed, that does not happen, it can't even happen unless he was literally hacking.

But it did happen TWICE and you're not going to persuade me that what I've seen with my own eyes is a lie.

You sure you haven't forgotten something? Like a support, or minions or enemy poke?

There are two things that could take place:

  1. He most likely haven't sold the Doran's Blade.
  2. He most likely hit me with Ooze at the start, but since I wasn't in range to ult him, he had maxed W thus only one point in E which would deal maybe 40 damage.
Thefrostyviking2 votes

I really need to save all highlights for non-believers like you.

Argue as you wish but you have absolutely no evidence to prove basic math wrong, no matter how you spin your tales the end result of 1+1 will always be 2.

Last time I checked you respawn with full HP.

You can still get poked if you walk far enough out, you can tank minions or jungle camps and take damage.

Just respawning doesn't mean that by the time you run into kog you´ll have full health unless you intentionally run straight into him.

The moment the first attack hit I realized I can't simply ignore him. The moment the second attack hit I was almost done throwing QE. The moment the third attack hit (and my QE hit him) I realized it's impossible for me to kill him so I Flashed. The moment the fourth attack hit I realized I wasted Flash and dropped dead.

Except this is fundamentally impossible given what you told me, kog with only 1,1 attackspeed simply cannot get 3 auto attacks off in the time it takes for a syndra to Q-E.

The animation is 1,5 seconds, 3 auto attacks take 2,7.

And not to mention, math proves that he with 4 autos alone just can't kill a Syndra given your conditions.

There is no way around that.

But it did happen TWICE and you're not going to persuade me that what I've seen with my own eyes is a lie.

I am questioning exactly what you saw, given that evidently you somehow wasn't looking at the kog when he first started auto attacking, and now you claim it happened twice....and he had 1 item both times.

There are two things that could take place:

  1. He most likely haven't sold the Doran's Blade.

So 26 extra damage from Dorans, 40 from E, which has a considerable cast time which would delay his auto attacks, 130 from Q which would also delay his attackspeed due to its animation.

While Q would indeed reduce your resistances it causes the issue of there simply not being enough time, and quite frankly, with the low base resistance of a mage his Q would really not have much effect either.

  1. He most likely hit me with Ooze at the start, but since I wasn't in range to ult him, he had maxed W thus only one point in E which would deal maybe 40 damage.

So, he not only used 4 auto attacks in the span of 3 seconds, he also found the time to Q-E and get 2 auto attacks off before you even started to Q-E.

Now we have some realistic info of what went down, and you have quite clearly painted out what actually happened.

You sent your champ wandering off somewhere looking at another place, enemy kog was at this place your champ, syndra passed and he started attacking.

He got Q-E and 1-2 autos off before you even realized he was there, then most likely another auto attack and his ultimate but by the time you had the presence of mind to flash out you were already near dead and still barely inside his W range.

.....Good sir.....Quite frankly this isn't kog being OP, this is you being caught outside in a blizzard, naked, and apparently twice even.

It's almost painful to read this.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

Argue as you wish but you have absolutely no evidence to prove basic math wrong, no matter how you spin your tales the end result of 1+1 will always be 2.

1+1=3 for large values of 1. The magic of rounding.

You can still get poked if you walk far enough out, you can tank minions or jungle camps and take damage.

Just respawning doesn't mean that by the time you run into kog you´ll have full health unless you intentionally run straight into him.

I intentionally ran straight into him, because he was attacking my team's inhibitor bot lane tower. Also you can't get minions to change aggro if you don't get to attack anything.

I am questioning exactly what you saw, given that evidently you somehow wasn't looking at the kog when he first started auto attacking,

Funny, because I never said I wasn't looking at him.

and now you claim it happened twice....and he had 1 item both times.

Those two situations were one minute apart. Once on the inner tower, then on the inhibitor tower.

So 26 extra damage from Dorans, 40 from E, which has a considerable cast time which would delay his auto attacks, 130 from Q which would also delay his attackspeed due to its animation.

While Q would indeed reduce your resistances it causes the issue of there simply not being enough time, and quite frankly, with the low base resistance of a mage his Q would really not have much effect either.

I said "Ooze" and it's under E. Why are you talking about Q?

So, he not only used 4 auto attacks in the span of 3 seconds, he also found the time to Q-E and get 2 auto attacks off before you even started to Q-E.

You are like a shitty journalist. I never even MENTIONED Kog used Q.

Now we have some realistic info of what went down, and you have quite clearly painted out what actually happened.

No, now we have you fabricating what I said, which may would've worked if it wasn't for the fact my previous comments are STILL there.

You sent your champ wandering off somewhere looking at another place, enemy kog was at this place your champ, syndra passed and he started attacking.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/430/877/271.gif

Have you ever considered writing a book? Oh, right, you'd need to be creative to do that.

He got Q-E and 1-2 autos off before you even realized he was there, then most likely another auto attack and his ultimate but by the time you had the presence of mind to flash out you were already near dead and still barely inside his W range.

I gave you a step by step guide to what happened and you COMPLETELY ignored EVERYTHING I said, and CREATED something YOU WOULD WANT ME TO SAY.

.....Good sir.....Quite frankly this isn't kog being OP, this is you being caught outside in a blizzard, naked, and apparently twice even.

Good sir, I'm astonished you managed to live this long not having any reading comprehension skills.

It's almost painful to read this.

Indeed, I've seen many faux-intellectuals in my life, but you take the cake.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

1+1=3 for large values of 1.

Which doesn't change the fact that 1+1=2 unless something else is stated, just the number 1 alone with no additions multiplied by the similar standalone number 2 will result in 2.

I intentionally ran straight into him, because he was attacking my team's inhibitor bot lane tower.

So how in all the blazing heavens did you manage to get auto attacked 4 times in a row before even finishing Q-E cast........you somehow needed 4 seconds for a combo that needs less than 1,5 if done well,

Despite the fact that you at all times had more range than him, Syndra´s Q is 800, maxed kog W gives him 710.

And if sacrificing Q damage to just stun someone then the of her sphere pushed by E is 1100.

And yet, somehow you played it so that he got 4 auto attacks and E of before even casting Q-E,,,,,

Funny, because I never said I wasn't looking at him.

Given above reasons of range i just can't see him getting near you otherwise, it's just unrealistic if assuming that you aren't goofing off.

Those two situations were one minute apart. Once on the inner tower, then on the inhibitor tower.

Which makes the situation even more bewildering.

I said "Ooze" and it's under E. Why are you talking about Q?

This one was on me actually, got the name of his Q and E mixed up as i don't check the ability names and simply assumed you meant the most damaging one.

You are like a shitty journalist. I never even MENTIONED Kog used Q.

You haven't really given any kind of plausible explaination for how in the worlds you got yourself boned by a kog with less range than yourself before you could even manage to fire back either <.<

But, true, my bad on the Q.

No, now we have you fabricating what I said, which may would've worked if it wasn't for the fact my previous comments are STILL there.

Again, i raise the question, how in all the heavens did you manage to somehow get yourself shot 4 times by the kog despite having superior range to him?

Animation time aside, the fact that you didn't even react to his presence until he was in range to auto attack quite clearly suggests that you weren't aware of him ._.

And if you were aware then that suggests that something was awfully wrong with your priorities.

Have you ever considered writing a book? Oh, right, you'd need to be creative to do that.

I gave you a step by step guide to what happened and you COMPLETELY ignored EVERYTHING I said, and CREATED something YOU WOULD WANT ME TO SAY.

You gave a step by step that was extremely vague as how it went down, but i must say the clarified version leaves me with more questions than answers.

Somehow, kog got inside your vision range, and you did not react much more than noting that he was there.

Somehow, he got inside your range and you did not react this time either.

Not until he walks close enough for him to shot, do you react, after he has started to shot, and according to yourself he stated off with E, before walking towards you which would normally indicate his hostile intent.

And somehow, you still did not mange to Q-E him until his final auto attack went through, despite having been able to before he even got his first auto attack off unless everything was on cooldown.

Good sir, I'm astonished you managed to live this long not having any reading comprehension skills.

Because the clarified scenario is so incredibly unlikely that no one could have guess it happening, just think about it for a second.

A kog maw, walks up in E range towards a syndra, uses the ability, pops W, and walks into said syndra´s range in order to reach her.

Then he manages to fire off an auto attack before you even recognize him as a problem, then another before you can even start to Q-E.

And then, over the span of his 4 auto attacks and E you don't even fire back once until the last moment before dying, supposedly to a kog with 1 item, 2 levels under you from 4 auto attacks and 1 E.

And he somehow got inside your base, alone, and this all happened twice.

Indeed, I've seen many faux-intellectuals in my life, but you take the cake.

Now with the above in mind, do you really consider my assumption that you got caught unaware in jungle so unreasonable? Rather, my assumption was by far more reasonable if anything.

The chain of events as you present them leaves one questioning not only your decision making but your reaction time and skills as well.

Are you quite sure you didn't tank some minions at least? Perhaps a super one?

What you have described sounds like a forest burning down in the middle of a tropical downpour that had been ongoing for hours before the fire even started, it should not be possible unless someone poured oil all over the entire forest.

It sounds so unbelievable that one in fact just can't believe it.

Disembark1 votes

“Last two years” Try the “last 7 years”

Riot doesn’t WANT every champ to be at a 50% win rate - not even including how it’d be virtually impossible.

Hell, I’d say the game has transformed into something where each player had a certain role in a team composition, and they all need to be together for something to happen.

But it takes away solo carrying and solo skill expression FOR EVERY ROLE, yes, that includes jungle/mid/adc too.

Does that mean it’s unbalanced? Not necessarily, at least not any MORE unbalanced than it was before. Just takes away from individual agency and for some people, the amount of fun they have.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

Riot doesn’t WANT every champ to be at a 50% win rate - not even including how it’d be virtually impossible.

Not tell me where I said everybody should have a 50% winrate.

Disembark1 votes

So do you know what equilibrium means?

MirrorU1 votes

Thank you! Finally someone who sees this season the way it really is. BTW I've been saying that crit should be removed for years, or at the very least capped at 40%. I mean honestly crit is a stat that's designed to have a massive attack once in a while, if you have 100% crit on champions like they do now it takes the game from fun to retarded. In my opinion the other thing they should completely remove is true damage, it's designed purely to make the game unbalanced. I mean honestly why have armor and MR at all if you're gonna put bullshit like true damage in the game where it goes through it all?

And they REFUSE to fix the turrets, because god forbid you make them % of life based rather than flat damage based which is only viable for like the first 10 levels of the game. Why make a good safe zone when you can make irrelevant clumps of stone that do nothing mid to endgame.

BigBellBrute2 votes

{quoted}

Thank you! Finally someone who sees this season the way it really is. BTW I've been saying that crit should be removed for years, or at the very least capped at 40%. I mean honestly crit is a stat that's designed to have a massive attack once in a while, if you have 100% crit on champions like they do now it takes the game from fun to retarded. In my opinion the other thing they should completely remove is true damage, it's designed purely to make the game unbalanced. I mean honestly why have armor and MR at all if you're gonna put bullshit like true damage in the game where it goes through it all?

And they REFUSE to fix the turrets, because god forbid you make them % of life based rather than flat damage based which is only viable for like the first 10 levels of the game. Why make a good safe zone when you can make irrelevant clumps of stone that do nothing mid to endgame.

In the pro game, we're seeing a lot of winner of next team fight wins it games. Too many.

MirrorU1 votes

I agree. They can't just keep telling people this game is balanced when literally everyone who plays this game is saying it's bullshit.

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