Just a reminder, since Riot seems to have forgotten..

Shinjusuke··16 votes·1,223 views

Summoner's code rule number 4: "Enjoy yourself, but not at anyone else's expense".

What's your guy's excuse for allowing LeeSin to be an infuriating, overbearing, overloaded, never-heavily-influenced by jungle changes monster again?

Oh right: "He's played a boatload more than any other jungler 'because he's more fun' than them"

So let's see: Lee Sin players get to have fun having a stupid amount of perks that can completely eradicate the fun of the other jungler (and probably that jungler's team) if the Lee is any good at his oppressive champion, but he's fine.

So basically, Lee Sin is immune to changes because you don't want to ruin the fun of Lee Sin mains, at the expense of everyone else? Nice consistency guys :)

P.S. Totally called the "Riot nerfs Jarvan and Vi and then moves on to 'larger systematic jungle changes' conveniently when it'd be Lee Sin's turn" thing like a month ago lol. One thing I'll say, you guys might not be consistent with following your own rulesets for balance and design, but at least you're consistently inconsistent :P

27 Comments

Jamaree5 votes

Couldn't this exact same argument be used by Lee Sin mains if they nerfed Lee Sin?

SEKAI4 votes

Well they enjoyed it for like 4 years already, tis about time they pay something back.

4 more years should be enough time to find a perfect place for him in-game, at no cost of anybody's fun.

Jamaree2 votes

Except for the fun of the Lee Sin mains, but they magically don't count in this situation for some reason.

SEKAI3 votes

Pay back time babe, you enjoyed it for years then it's time for you to suffer a little bit.

Given Riot's attention on this guy if he is just so happened to be nerfed for whatever reason, he would immediately get found another place the next patch anyway.

I can't see playing a champion in an average or even slightly below average state after 4 years of completely dominance is being unreasonable at all. What about the Veigar players who get to shine for like 3 days before an immediate change/nerf or any lower pick rate champs that make up 80% of the roster?

Why can't Lee players be put in a bad position, even just for a little bit? Even though 80% of the roster has either received nothing in particular or getting raped over and over.

Jamaree7 votes

Whatever, he isn't even that bad honestly, but whatever.

Remlap12232 votes

ERROR. DIFFERING OPINION DETECTED. NOT ENOUGH LEE SIN HATE. YOU MUST HAVE A HIGHER THRESHOLD OF LEE SIN HATE IN ORDER TO POST ON THE BOARDS.

LordDarkshayde3 votes

Amen I'm tired of all these Lee Sin QQ threads. Sure he is a mobile little bitch, but guess what if you beat him hard enough and send him running away don't complain that you can't chase him down. Be happy you beat his ass and sent him packing in the first place. Lee is easily beaten because all you do is let him hit you with his Q when you want him to come in and lock him down with cc while your team shreds him. I play alot of Lux and I laugh when Lee Q's me cause I just snare him as he flies in on me and blow him up.

Shinjusuke5 votes

The reason there's so many Lee Sin QQ threads is because apparently out of all the 120+ champions in League he's the only one that can have an atrociously high amount of people who think he's a serious problem, have Riot state several times over several years that he's a problem, and be a top (if not outright dominant) pick in a role for 3+ years without so much as a lovetap to his power.

Riot has outright said (as in, "you can google that shit and read it for yourself") Lee Sin has too much crap and versatility in his kit, as well as saying that, regardless of what larger-scale jungle changes they make, Lee Sin is always at-or-near the top of jungler list in levels of power. They have said these same things several times over a 3+ year long period, and yet still refuse to change the champion, purely because of his disgustingly high play rate and the fact that his flashy kit looks like "outplaying" to idiots who don't know what his kit does.

There's a shitload of Lee Sin QQ threads, because JUNGLERS ARE TIRED OF HIM GETTING A FREE RIDE IN THIS GAME. We're tired of him being obviously having a kit that's way too overloaded, obviously being a major issue for the jungle state, and obviously crowding out jungle picks, yet never seeing any real work while every other champion in the role has to sit through both painful jungle nerfs and equally painful specific champion nerfs.

Sure, you can say "he's not that bad". But frankly, unless you're a jungle main who isn't a Lee Sin main, I'm sorry but there's no other way to say it besides "you don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about". It's a jungler problem, it's long been a jungler problem, and it's a problem Riot ignores purely out of favoritism for a horrendous champion design.

If you're playing a lot of Lux, I'll throw out of a random guess and say you're a mid laner, so consider this: Lee Sin is to junglers what Kassadin was (pre-rework) to mid laners. He's an incredibly outdated kit design, with a downright stupid amount of options, that can stomp you in your role simply because the other guy can find his QWER keys, who Riot refuses to acknowledge simply because they like how he looks. The difference is, Riot's opinion on Kassadin was that "he probably shouldn't be an assassin, his ult's too strong", and they eventually did some work on him. Riot's opinion on Lee Sin however is "we know and will publicly state he's too strong and definitely way too overloaded, but frankly we don't give enough of a fuck about jungle players to do anything about it".

That's why there's an assload of "Lee Sin QQ threads": Because jungle mains are sick of this bullshit, and having more and more terrible global jungle changes happen to "add diversity" while they completely ignore the single largest stranglehold in the game on "jungler diversity", who we've been saying for years needs to get changed, is a slap in the face.

Arkna3 votes

{quoted} Sure, you can say "he's not that bad". But frankly, unless you're a jungle main who isn't a Lee Sin main, I'm sorry but there's no other way to say it besides "you don't have a goddamn clue what you're talking about". It's a jungler problem, it's long been a jungler problem, and it's a problem Riot ignores purely out of favoritism for a horrendous champion design.

Stats since S2 Vi: 88 Games Lee: 76 Games Xin: 65 Games Kha: 61 Games Elise: 59 Games Sejuani: 58 Games

It's ok though, you can dismiss my opinions because I'm a biased Lee Sin main ;^).

LordDarkshayde1 votes

Actually I play alot of jungle as well and I use champions such as Nautlius, Rammus, Amumu, etc. who in my opinion are far better suited for team fighting and ganking than some squishy little bitch like Lee Sin. Sure he has an overloaded kit, but it takes alot of fucking work and just the right circumstances for him to fully utilize it. Stop crying so much about a champ that can be easily outplayed with a little bit of teamwork just like all the other "OP" champions out there.

BakedLotion2 votes

{quoted}

Except for the fun of the Lee Sin mains, but they magically don't count in this situation for some reason.

Lee Sin main detected.

And it's not breaking the code because it's a justified nerf. You can still play him, he just wont be blatantly op

Jamaree1 votes

I have never played Lee Sin in my life, look at my lolking. I'm just affront to champions getting nerfed to oblivion.

Shinjusuke5 votes

ONE champion's players (a SINGLE champion out of like 30 competitively possible junglers), who've had an oppressive dominance in a role, for 3+ years now, can't handle their champion getting nerfed for once while every other jungle main has to deal with repeated nerfs if they set a toe beyond being balanced?

Yeah, I think Lee Sin mains can deal. He's a problem, he's always been a problem, and frankly the favoritism has long since gotten old. I'm not saying he needs dumpstered or anything like that, I'm saying his core kit design is flawed, he's an outright affront to what Riot claims their design policies are, and he needed reworked ages ago.

Lee Sin mains can suck it up, like every other jungle main has had to suck it up while Lee Sin gets to be a problem year after year without reproach as every other jungler has to deal with nerfs.

So no, they can't use this same argument. One champion's mains are ruining the fun for every single other person who mains a different champion, that should've changed ages ago, like it has changed for every other jungler who was oppressive in the role before.

Arkna2 votes

{quoted}

ONE champion's players (a SINGLE champion out of like 30 competitively possible junglers), who've had an oppressive dominance in a role, for 3+ years now, can't handle their champion getting nerfed for once while every other jungle main has to deal with repeated nerfs if they set a toe beyond being balanced?

Yeah, I think Lee Sin mains can deal. He's a problem, he's always been a problem, and frankly the favoritism has long since gotten old. I'm not saying he needs dumpstered or anything like that, I'm saying his core kit design is flawed, he's an outright affront to what Riot claims their design policies are, and he needed reworked ages ago.

Lee Sin mains can suck it up, like every other jungle main has had to suck it up while Lee Sin gets to be a problem year after year without reproach as every other jungler has to deal with nerfs.

So no, they can't use this same argument. One champion's mains are ruining the fun for every single other person who mains a different champion, that should've changed ages ago, like it has changed for every other jungler who was oppressive in the role before.

Lee isn't a very strong pick this season, and it was arguable last season. His scaling is awful, he can't afford damage if he didn't snowball, and as a tank/utility jungler, he's very poor. Last season introduced a revamped vision system that made early ganks harder. Given his bonus AD ratios, his damage plummets without offensive items. But his base stats in general are pretty bad, so he also needs defensive items. If he doesn't get supplementary gold from kills, he can't afford to do both. This season brought a revamped jungle that made the early gank window even smaller, while also making failed ganks more punishing than they've been in a while. If you gank a lane, take damage, and don't net anything, your clear really suffers. This means the other jungler will probably hit 6 first, and odds are they have an ult that contributes much more to a successful gank than Lee.

Rinky Dinky4 votes

His actual scaling is really fucking high.

In practice however, full ad lee dong goes in and gets blown up with hard cc.

Arkna2 votes

{quoted}

His actual scaling is really fucking high.

In practice however, full ad lee dong goes in and gets blown up with hard cc.

Scaling isn't solely ratios, it's how they factor into the champion's kit throughout the game. You can't ignore context when talking about balancing, because that's really all balancing is.

Rinky Dinky2 votes

tru

Learnding1 votes

{quoted}

Couldn't this exact same argument be used by Lee Sin mains if they nerfed Lee Sin?

No? If you no longer play Lee-Sin because he's nerfed, you're not a main, and you don't like Lee-Sin. You abuse his power factor, not play him to get good at him.

Eedat5 votes

Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently.

Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game.

There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game

Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.

His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions scale better with their flat scaling. Add this to the fact that Lee Sin's Season 4 Trifecta (jungle item, sight stone, mobis) takes far too long to complete now to abuse his early game strengths and mobility.

There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.

So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. Junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up. He's already behind enough as it is

DJ Di01 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently.

Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game.

There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game

Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.

His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions scale better with their flat scaling. Add this to the fact that Lee Sin's Season 4 Trifecta (jungle item, sight stone, mobis) takes far too long to complete now to abuse his early game strengths and mobility.

There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.

So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. Junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up. He's already behind enough as it is

I swear I've seen this exact reply before.

Deja vu, or do you have it clipboarded on something? . ___.

Eedat1 votes

It is written by me. I use it in every Lee Sin QQ thread I come across. It's the truth so I just keep using it

DJ Di01 votes

{quoted}

It is written by me. I use it in every Lee Sin QQ thread I come across. It's the truth so I just keep using it

Smart.

Spacefight0r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=viTET0ww,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-07T19:28:04.901+0000)

I swear I've seen this exact reply before.

Deja vu, or do you have it clipboarded on something? . ___.

Does not discredit what he said. Lee Sin isn't that strong. He isn't crowding anyone out of the jungle. I can't fathom why players would want even less jungle diversity than there already is.

Arkna2 votes

I love how arguments in favor of nerfing Lee conveniently ignore the arguments against it, and resort to ad hominems, no true scotsman fallacies, bandwagoning, and ignore the burden of proof.

I should make a logical fallacy bingo board.

SEKAI1 votes

What are there to be against Lee hate besides "His late falls off" or "He has to land a skill shot"?

SmknWdl1 votes

nice bullshit buddy... i find your lack of skill and brains to counter a lee sin amusing. Go back to dota and stop wasting our time with this "OP NERF NOW" trash.

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