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How the fuck can anyone on the balance team think this is healthy?

Yenn··90 votes·19,691 views

My team doesn't even have time to react to the 8-9-5 Nocturne instantly killing me. There is no way for me to outplay or prevent this. The player himself was playing very poorly all game, but could entirely shut me down just by pressing R.

I really don't understand how anyone can look at this and think 'Yep, totally fine.'

https://media.giphy.com/media/28GF6sRqdsqS1qamV4/giphy.gif

EDIT: To be clear, this is about damage in general. This isn't specific to Nocturne, many champions can do this. My complaint is that these players can basically just kamikaze into me all game, and do it faster with each successive kill, even if they themselves are dying in the process.

154 Comments

LegitBusinessman63 votes

I'm not sure people are understanding his point. He's not asking if that should happen in the current state of the game with those items and those two champions (It should).

He's asking if game state should have ever come to that point in the first place, ever. (It shouldn't).

Ayzev45 votes

To those saying "But he had Duskblade and Stormrazor, while you had no defensive items":

An explanation isn't a justification.

hi ìm groot13 votes

{quoted}

To those saying "But he had Duskblade and Stormrazor, while you had no defensive items":

An explanation isn't a justification.

This is the perfectly worded. Tired of every time a discussion is brought up about the ridiculousness of damage right now, people start saying stupid shit like "Well he's an assassin, he's suppose to do that".

Nevrankroaton2 votes

It is also more of an issue coming from many assassin.

Aka leblanc, nocturne, khazyx and rengar notably (we had others like Fizz, akali or diana).

They can perfectly kill you in very short windows span. But let me remind you the moment riot tried to rework that, people yelled.

The Iceborn42 votes

If it doesnt happen in the lcs riot wont nerf it*[zombie-brand-clap]*

CppL6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Iceborn,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-01T22:42:18.179+0000)

If it doesnt happen in the lcs riot wont nerf it*[zombie-brand-clap]*

Of course they wont.Riot would be like "look at that flashy play guys,fuck yea.Totally outplayed"

Schenix5 votes

They actually literally said in LCS: there is almost no outplaying a Shen Nocturne no matter how good you are.

Followed by doublelift explaining the same thing in an lcs interview on a game, Nocturne ult will probably kill someone regardless of skill.

BLIGHTBRINGER35 votes

That's nothing compared to the fact that Master Yi is still shreading through anyone (tank or not). Yet he hasn't been nerfed, even when he began seeing play in LCS.

Nocturne is really limited to a one target, once he engages onto someone, he is an open target.

ChaosThief1 votes

I think the problem is that the Nocturne can just pick someone and basically tell them they can't play the game anymore for the death timer. Yes, he will probably die after doing this, but it's incredibly irritating to have the only way to survive being a stopwatch-variant item.

Not only that, but this will happen every time Nocturne decides to ult any squishy target, unless they have god-like reflex allies with hard CC, like alistar or thresh, and this is assuming that nocturne doesn't spellshield at all, which I believe he can cast mid ultimate?

The game isn't just about trading kills, and that's effectively what's happening with stuff like Nocturne or Rengar. They jump a single target and invalidate them, regardless of what they wanted to do. You can kill them afterwards, and yes technically that is fair for both teams, but the person who got jumped will still feel frustrated that they were completely powerless.

Altiverse22 votes

##He'S aN aSsAasIn It'S tHeIr JoB ##He HaD 8 kIlLs ThAt'S sUpEr FeD

BeNiceToOthers2 votes

{quoted}

##He'S aN aSsAasIn It'S tHeIr JoB ##He HaD 8 kIlLs ThAt'S sUpEr FeD

That's exactly what's wrong with the game right now. Too much damage!! Nerf the damage part and make teamfights longer, make it so people can actually DO SOMETHING.

LugiaPaladin15 votes

I like how instead of trying to shield you the Rakan attempted to knock up an ulting Nocturne

BestPudgeNA8 votes

{quoted}

I like how instead of trying to shield you the Rakan attempted to knock up an ulting Nocturne

He was going after the Morg but yeah...

Elohaven3 votes

Shield wouldn't have let him survive

Akali is SO HOT9 votes

Good guy Nocturne making sure Yenn is kept in his place.

TempName548469 votes

if full ad noc can't delete shit noc is useless, there's no in between right now.

Great Ozymandius3 votes

If full ad noc can't delete shit noc is useless, there's no in between right now.

Its a major problem with a lot of bruisers and assassins right now.

One issue is that RIOT has been adding a ton of "counterplay" to adc's, which means that champions with one gap closer can dive an enemy adc and then need to kill the adc before the adc can use his "counterplay". If not, the adc gets away, you die, and your team loses the teamfight.

This is what schaco is like right now. In S5/S6 you could go with a tankier shaco build; you could win the teamfight without one-shoting someone. Now you need to one-shot.

It's something that riot simply did not understand. When you give adc's more protection, either from mobility skills, cc, untargetability, or from supports, then the only way you can have viable ADC targeting champs is if these targeting champs have absurd damage. So RIOT buffs damage and everything dies super fast.

IkBenShteen9 votes

The thing that pisses me off the most is that assassins will say "muh this is balanced". How is it balanced for one class to completely obliterate the other class without any form of skill or counterplay? Press R + auto = your class outclassed.

The current assassin meta and damage creep is just out of proportion and completetly ruins the fun. Not to mention the jungle changes that also became aids and made me quit playing jungle altogether.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

Except for the fact Rakan could've easily prevented the death.

Granted, this is the worst meta that has ever existed. Sure there have been some where one class was preferable to another because of those awful class reworks, but to have the items of a class change so much that the class actually stops being picked altogether has never happened before.

IkBenShteen6 votes

Wrong. Rakan would've done nothing but literally made him surive 0.2 seconds longer. Still had Q E and W so easily would've survived that and still killed the adc in what? 1.2 seconds. Ok insane counterplay gap. Back in season 5 you'd get killed in 1.2s if at least 3 people blasted you. Nowadays you wander around, and an invisible twitch or rengar jumps out and poof instagibbed. Not to mention zed who just obliterates any adc with R and an auto (so speaking).

The Ecdysiast3 votes

You're literally blind if you can't see that he used every single ability. You can SEE the path of his Q, and his W pop from Jhin's grenade. What's with all the liars in this thread whining about assassins?

Even then, nocturne was not doing well enough that he would've been able to either kill Jhin with Rakan helping him or survive Jhin's attacks. You're just lying and whining.

It's people like you who blatantly lie and whine about non-issues with made-up information who make Riot not take the boards seriously.

Mast3rShake7 votes

its 36 to 23 and he probably is at or close to full build, so yeah, he should delete you

Yenn33 votes

{quoted}

its 36 to 23 and he probably is at or close to full build, so yeah, he should delete you

???

He has Warrior, Duskblade, and Stormrazor. My team has more kills. Why did you even post this?

TakaDama12 votes

You just answered why he killed you: Duskblade and Stormrazor. Nocturne is pretty meh for an assassin as he has no way to escape reliably, but that itemization alone makes him lethal.

Edit: The R itself did negligible damage but the following auto that procced both items did the most damage, based on the gif

Yenn28 votes

{quoted}

You just answered why he killed you: Duskblade and Stormrazor. Nocturne is pretty meh for an assassin as he has no way to escape reliably, but that itemization alone makes him lethal.

I didn't ask how he killed me, I'm asking how the balance team can possibly think that being instantly deleted with no counterplay by a monkey pressing R at any point in the late game is healthy.

If I had the majority of my team's gold and were carrying, this would have completely ended the game, regardless of how well I was playing or how badly Nocturne was playing.

TakaDama6 votes

My point was that it's the itemization, not the champion that killed you. Hell, I imagine Wukong could have done the same thing with W into E into Auto and save his ult for the rest of the team at base.

Not saying it is balanced at all (I agree that damage is disgusting) but one of those two items needs to be looked at extensively or just removed, not Nocturne.

Stephenizgod27 votes

Nah man we got your point, you are still missing OP's point. Its not about the items, the champions, the gold, etc. it is about the action itself. Player A was instantly killed by Player B and there was no counterplay, nothing was done wrong by Player A and nothing was done right by Player B other than hitting a single button. Nothing could be done about what happened, there was no outplay, no relying on teammates.... nothing.

The point is, why is something like this acceptable? Why should one player be able to do this to another player without actually earning it through strategic gameplay or outplay. Its about how busted the current state of the game is where this shit happens non-stop. You are either the one doing it or it is being done to you. Its not fun and its not fair for a player on a losing team who hasn't been playing very well to instantly erase a better player simply with the push of a button with absolutely no counterplay.

TakaDama2 votes

I'm not saying it is acceptable (of course it isn't; this isn't an FPS where headshots instantly kill; it is supposed to be a action-strategy game), but in response to the OP condemning Nocturne's R Auto combo, I stated what was the root problem causing that much damage was the itemization, not Nocturne himself. Just think, when was the last time you saw a Shaco or Nocturne delete someone that quickly without Stormrazor?

Anyhow, I addressed this so that the proper measures could be taken to fix whatever allows that item combo to one-shot almost anyone (whether a bug or just some poorly designed synergy) instead of unnecessary nerfs to assassins who, until fairly recently, suffered because of their lack of macro compared to mages. Especially if it is a bug, then nerfing individual champions won't solve anything.

And I stated that simply because, based on the OP's own GIF, Noct's R did only 10% damage and the auto after that did the rest.

EDIT: just realized I already said this in my last post, so I'll TL;DR here: I agree that isn't balanced or fun at all, however I'm pointing out the problem for clarity so any potential nerfs/bugfixes can be made in the right places.

Cosnirak7 votes

Just think, when was the last time you saw a Shaco or Nocturne delete someone that quickly without Stormrazor?

Literally every game I've played that included a Nocturne and/or AD Shaco in seasons 7 & 8...

Yes Stormrazer is a problem, but it is not the problem.

Serika Zero6 votes

{quoted}

My team doesn't even have time to react to the 8-9-5 Nocturne instantly killing me. There is no way for me to outplay or prevent this. The player himself was playing very poorly all game, but could entirely shut me down just by pressing R.

I really don't understand how anyone can look at this and think 'Yep, totally fine.'

https://media.giphy.com/media/28GF6sRqdsqS1qamV4/giphy.gif

do you honestly want to know why "this is fine" ? or this is just a upvote farming post with a bait in it?

Radiant Wukong6 votes

This is just a bait post. He doesn't take builds, roles or anything into consideration.

Everybody knows that damage is too high right now, but when I pointed out the same thing would have happened to him back in S2 by an Annie Leblanc Talon Kassadin Nidalee Veigar Kennen Akali Fizz Shaco and the seasons when Rengar Katarina Velkoz were released.

Marksmen = lowest resistances Assassins = high burst damage

Again, agreed with him that damage in the game is too high, higher than it's ever been due to new rune/keystones system and dammed near all items having a damage passive on them now to increase bursts and guarantee a critical strike (though an item back in S2 a pure damage item used to give 100% crit chance for like 3 seconds, I forgot what it was called).

But even you side with him, if you say anything about why the fuck he got blown enough

Squishy marksmen with 0 resistances vs assassin with electrocute, duskblade, stormrazor (maybe a triforce), you get downvoted by these circle jerkers.

EasternBladeStar6 votes

Assassins don't even have to be ahead. Once they hit a certain item "powerspike" (LUL), this is nearly always the result. I have seen a 0/5 Rengar one-shotting the ADC in a similar fashion after merely completing his FIRST item.

Assassins, especially the AD ones, are just blatant easy-mode right now. The players who had mastered the kits of the high skill cap ones have no way of showcasing their superior mechanics in the current season. They have neither the time nor need to.

Nocturne's always had a badly designed kit. Parts of his kit are intended for sustained DPS, yet his ult screams BURRSSSST.

Just delete Duskblade from the game. It should've never been an item in the first place. In general the access to free non--interactive packets of quick damage is too high.

goodiesohhi6 votes

To be fair that's kind of all he does..

NekoniClaws5 votes

Stay in fountai--- ... nm the healing wouldn't save you.

Yeah assassins are balanced around basically suicide-bombing the best target. Kind of annoying to be the best target. MAYBE Rakan's shield-heal could have saved you. Maybe.

BLACK REALM GOD5 votes

you had 66 armor and 1600hp... whatd you think was going to happen?

yangus Beef2 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-07-02T05:48:30.248+0000)

you had 66 armor and 1600hp... whatd you think was going to happen?

So about 2k damage in one auto. Isn't that level of burst damage with auto attacks the biggest reason adc got hard nerfed?

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

[{quoted}](name=yangus Beef,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2018-07-02T13:39:05.778+0000)

So about 2k damage in one auto. Isn't that level of burst damage with auto attacks the biggest reason adc got hard nerfed?

nope. they got nerfed because they were too versatile. marksmen were (and likely still are) taking spots that were meant for assassins, fighters, and mages by simply just being better all-arounders. the concept of a marksmen seems simple, but when you combine damage with range and a random modifier that grants both attack speed and added damage you get some pretty crazy combos that breaks the game or prevents fluid change.

the counter to a good marksman used to be pick a better marksman or hope your support is hyper meta. and that's an issue. then there's the whole issue with yasuo and kindred making the items hard to balance among other champs.

so it wasnt that marksmen dealt 2000 damage per auto attack, but that marksmen dealt 2000 damage (assassin) from auto attacks from range (marksmen) and could also hit you with an ability (mage) that did the same thing while sustaining (tank) through the fight with on-hit effects (fighter).

that's why marksmen were nerfed.

yangus Beef4 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2018-07-02T13:54:02.003+0000)

nope. they got nerfed because they were too versatile. marksmen were (and likely still are) taking spots that were meant for assassins, fighters, and mages by simply just being better all-arounders. the concept of a marksmen seems simple, but when you combine damage with range and a random modifier that grants both attack speed and added damage you get some pretty crazy combos that breaks the game or prevents fluid change.

the counter to a good marksman used to be pick a better marksman or hope your support is hyper meta. and that's an issue. then there's the whole issue with yasuo and kindred making the items hard to balance among other champs.

so it wasnt that marksmen dealt 2000 damage per auto attack, but that marksmen dealt 2000 damage (assassin) from auto attacks from range (marksmen) and could also hit you with an ability (mage) that did the same thing while sustaining (tank) through the fight with on-hit effects (fighter).

that's why marksmen were nerfed.

You say no, but they you basically say yes....

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

[{quoted}](name=yangus Beef,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T14:16:06.391+0000)

You say no, but they you basically say yes....

let me post your quote so you can read what the question was since you've obviously forgotten your own question.

[{quoted}](name=yangus Beef,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2018-07-02T13:39:05.778+0000) > > So about 2k damage in one auto. Isn't that level of burst damage with auto attacks the biggest reason adc got hard nerfed?

ill shorten my answer for you.

nope. they got nerfed because they were too versatile. damage, range, abilities, sustain, on-hit all in one package.

now they're just range.

an assassin getting nerfed for damage would be like a support getting nerfed for heals.

a marksman getting nerfed for damage is like a mage getting nerfed for heals.

yangus Beef4 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=000b0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T14:43:16.617+0000)

let me post your quote so you can read what the question was since you've obviously forgotten your own question.

ill shorten my answer for you.

now they're just range.

an assassin getting nerfed for damage would be like a support getting nerfed for heals.

a marksman getting nerfed for damage is like a mage getting nerfed for heals.

That doesn't make sense. The main function of an adc is to deal damage.

Daddy Ants4 votes

66 armor 1600 HP.

Wonder's why he got 1 shot.

Ecks dee.

Lol at Rakan trying to W the dash.

Nocturne is unstoppable during the dash.

Darkone70016 votes

That was not his point, his point was there was no counterplay to his ult. he is very aware and stated that he had no defenses, his point was Nocturne R'ed to him and had no way to counter it. he would be dead all the same even with armor.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

The counterplay is stay near an ally and have them deal with noc, or have any armor item. He doesn’t overkill well, if you have a defensive item or a shield/healing ally there’s a good chance you’ll survive.

Modl Ryden l3 votes

I get that people say that damage is so high, but if damage is high, then you should be doing just as much damage as them? Right?

BUT DON'T TELL ME!

"Their damage is high-ER!"

And as far as I can tell from your 6 pixel by 2 pixel .gif, you're a Jhin who's in Nocturne's vision. That's basically asking to get one shot, c'mon dude, you're Diamond Ex-Diamond, this is what Nocturne does, you should know that.

Nipsahoy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vhdgT42g,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2018-07-03T00:59:47.899+0000)

I get that people say that damage is so high, but if damage is high, then you should be doing just as much damage as them? Right?

BUT DON'T TELL ME!

"There damage is high-ER!"

And as far as I can tell from your 6 pixel by 2 pixel .gif, you're a Jhin who's in Nocturne's vision. That's basically asking to get one shot, c'mon dude, you're Diamond Ex-Diamond, this is what Nocturne does, you should know that.

The point he's making is no champ should do that. I don't understand what people don't get about that. How is it okay for him to die with 0 counterplay. Like to me that's the problem with this game entirely. They claim ok we have to nerf marksmen because they do too much damage and it's unfair. So they nerf them and now most of them suck unless they get 3-4 items yet some champs just take their place deleting you in 1 seconds with minimal counterplay yet the champs doing it now have more mobility and more gap closers and more survivability. I mean if champs that can engage from 1 screen away can do it then there's 0 reason that marksmen shouldn't be able to still.

Anags1 votes

Burst has existed in this game similar to this for quite some time.

And even when it wasnt burst it was being killed with no recourse.

At a certain point you are bitching about league being league. And That probably means you should take a break.

Especially when the OP is complaining about a win.

Amoc1 votes

{quoted}

Burst has existed in this game similar to this for quite some time.

And even when it wasnt burst it was being killed with no recourse.

At a certain point you are bitching about league being league. And That probably means you should take a break.

Especially when the OP is complaining about a win.

It's crappy gameplay. Period. There's no counterplay to that. It's not fun. It's not interactive. It's just lousy balance math and needs to be changed.

Mr Killalot1 votes

Again. The counterplay is GA. If you're around your team and you have GA, the assassin basically used his tools to proc your GA and die. This thread isn't about "there's no counterplay to this"; this thread ultimitely boils down to "I should be able to pick a squishy, build them full glass cannon, and not be one-shot by champions whose sole purpose is to one-shot me". People want to be able to pick marksmen, build full glass cannon, and be able to 1v1 any champion in the game, which in fact would be unhealthy gameplay. If you don't want to be destroyed by assassins, either build GA and stick with your team (if you die then, it's because your team's bad, not "unhealthy gameplay") or play a different class of champions. So you guys can keep complaining that assassins diving marksmen and one-shotting them when the marksmen are building full glass cannon and are caught out is "unhealthy gameplay", but if a marksman could 1v1 an assassin without building resistances, the class would be beyond broken.

Amoc1 votes

{quoted}

Again. The counterplay is GA. If you're around your team and you have GA, the assassin basically used his tools to proc your GA and die. This thread isn't about "there's no counterplay to this"; this thread ultimitely boils down to "I should be able to pick a squishy, build them full glass cannon, and not be one-shot by champions whose sole purpose is to one-shot me". People want to be able to pick marksmen, build full glass cannon, and be able to 1v1 any champion in the game, which in fact would be unhealthy gameplay. If you don't want to be destroyed by assassins, either build GA and stick with your team (if you die then, it's because your team's bad, not "unhealthy gameplay") or play a different class of champions. So you guys can keep complaining that assassins diving marksmen and one-shotting them when the marksmen are building full glass cannon and are caught out is "unhealthy gameplay", but if a marksman could 1v1 an assassin without building resistances, the class would be beyond broken.

GA isn't counterplay. The cooldown on it is far longer than Nocturne's combo. Realistically all it does is let you revive once every 5 minutes when you get deleted. By the time you generally build it, the game has progressed far enough that this usually means that it's ready 1/3 (or at best) 1/2 the time you need it. Even then, it's not really counterplay either. For a one-shot combo like the OP demonstrates, you're knocked out of combat and your team is left fighting a 4v5 for 4 seconds. By then it might be decided and you as likely as not are just going to revive to die again.

As for glass cannon champions, a lot of the time they don't really have any other options. Their kits bring no utility and they rely on scaling their damage. GA and Zhonya's are the only defensive items most ADC or mages can really afford to build.

Even more ridiculous, however, is how even tanks aren't really building defensive effectively anymore. With the absurd amount of damage flying around these days, even a full-build tank is getting melted within seconds.

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