Why do people think that DFT is good on DoT?

Nekusen·Feb 22, 2016·4 votes·1,664 views

Not a balance complain or anything, just wondering about this.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/71/Deathfire_Touch_mastery_2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20151103094525 Deals four times less damage for damage over time effects.

Damage over time: 1 second for a total of 2 (+ 6.25% AP) (+ 15% bonus AD) magic damage.

So considering the effect renews with each tick, unless you have a DoT that lasts 5 seconds or more, i don't see why people say this mastery is better for DoT champs over the rest of champs, it would seem like the other way around, like it's worst for them.

Am i missing something ? By the raw numbers it seems they would be better of by building Thunderlords.

18 Comments

Skia AsteriFeb 22, 20165 votes

The damage is the same, it is just a difference of how often it needs to be reapplied. Dot's reapply with each tick.

SettDownShutUpFeb 22, 20163 votes

Depends on the number of ticks.

A dot mage requires a skill that produces 4 ticks of 'DoT DFT" to break even with a champ who simply hits a single time using DFT.

As Brand, you actually obtain 6-8 ticks of your DFT DoT. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

What occurs with champions like brand is, you deal your base damage of your Q, Activating DFT at it's full duration. After this, every second for the next 4 seconds you don't deal new damage (as it doesn't stack) but refreshes the duration, resetting your Q's DFT.

Once Brand's passive expires, only then will the DFT deal it's 4 seconds of dots.

So in short, his Q is 8 DFTs DoTs, his W is 6 DFT DoTs, and his E is 8 DFT DoTs, 6 if you're a secondary target.

CasriFeb 22, 20162 votes

I can only speak for Cassiopeia , played a ton of games with her on my smurf lately. I've tried both keystones, but Cass' fights are improved a lot more by Deathfire than Thunderlord. Thunderlord enhancees short trades nicely in lane, but once you're out of lane it sucks compared to DfT.

The main problem with TLD is the cooldown. Thunderlord procs from just QEE, so when you go for a super extended trade or full-combo, once TLD has procced you aren't getting any more damage compared to DfT. This is especially pertinent in the mid/late-game where TLD will often proc on the first target you're able to safely attack (usually a tank) and is thus wasted; whereas DfT will deal considerably more damage throughout an extended mid-late game fight.

Also, bear in mind Twin Fang is single-target, so it applies Deathfire fully.

Furthermore, when you're poking with your Q and the enemy is out of range of E/you can't commit, Thunderlord does nothing, Deathfire amplifies the damage a little bit.

Finally, Cass' propensity to accumulate a huge amount of AP lends itself to Deathfire a lot more than Thunderlord's (DfT 25% AP ratio vs TLD 10% AP ratio).

NekusenFeb 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, i know, but why people think that DoT champs can use this mastery while the rest don't? more having in mind most DoTs last less than 4 seconds, making the total damage inferior.

Meep ManFeb 22, 20164 votes

A DoT is usually 3 seconds, making this last 4 seconds since the last tick of damage will make it last 1 second longer than the DoT. This makes the damage dealt equivalent. Then there are the champions who have DoTs that last longer than 3 seconds that can make it MORE than a single target spell, such as Urgot, Swain, Fizz, Mordekaiser, and Brand.

Others certainly can, but USUALLY there is a better Mastery for them.

Dessim8Feb 22, 20161 votes

Maybe it's just me, but the damage feels tiny. Is it supposed to be?

JefftiffyFeb 22, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Maybe it's just me, but the damage feels tiny. Is it supposed to be?

It is supposed to outscale thunderlord's and even out after just about about 150ish AP because it has a 100% uptime. From a DPS standpoint it can do much higher than thunderlord's but that doesn't make it better.

RebonackFeb 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It is supposed to outscale thunderlord's and even out after just about about 150ish AP because it has a 100% uptime. From a DPS standpoint it can do much higher than thunderlord's but that doesn't make it better.

It doesn't

Over 16 seconds, compare the power of 4 full applications of DFT versus two applications of Thunderlord's. The damage comes out being pretty similar.

NekusenFeb 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't

Over 16 seconds, compare the power of 4 full applications of DFT versus two applications of Thunderlord's. The damage comes out being pretty similar.

Actually, with my example:

Lets assume a lvl 10 champ with 100 AP. 4 Ticks of DFT = 33 dmg Thunderlords = 110 dmg

In lvl 10 you will have more or less 20 seconds CD on thunderlords, 4 full applications of DFT (16 ticks) will deal 132 dmg, while 2 applications of thunderlords will deal 220 dmg.

That means that if you perfectly time 4 duels in that period, you will still be doing no more than half the damage of thunderlords.

RebonackFeb 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Actually, with my example:

In lvl 10 you will have more or less 20 seconds CD on thunderlords, 4 full applications of DFT (16 ticks) will deal 132 dmg, while 2 applications of thunderlords will deal 220 dmg.

That means that if you perfectly time 4 duels in that period, you will still be doing no more than half the damage of thunderlords.

Yup.

Deathfire is better at level 1.

It's awful mid game compared to Thunderlord's, and by late game the DPS ends up being similar with comparable levels of AP/AD.

Terrible design.

Just the worst.

DisulfiramFeb 22, 20161 votes

DFT should be better on AoE and poke champions who build lots of AD and/or AP: Lux, for example, can get more from those constant DFT procs than from the occasional Thunderlord's if she's playing safe (that is to say, when she's saving her Q for peeling).

Dessim8Feb 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It is supposed to outscale thunderlord's and even out after just about about 150ish AP because it has a 100% uptime. From a DPS standpoint it can do much higher than thunderlord's but that doesn't make it better.

But 2 (+ 6.25% AP) (+ 15% bonus AD) isn't a ton of damage.

NekusenFeb 22, 20161 votes

So at most the damage is equivalent, (with the exception of brand) to single target mages.

Now the question is, is there a case in which the damage of DFT outdoes the one of Thunderlords?

Because doing the math, lets assume a lvl 10 champ with 100 AP. 4 Ticks of DFT = 33 dmg Thunderlords = 110 dmg

So at lvl 10 you would have to proc DFT 16 times to start doing more damage than Thunderlords. That means you require at least 4 engagements as DFT doesn't stack.

JefftiffyFeb 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So at most the damage is equivalent, (with the exception of brand) to single target mages.

Now the question is, is there a case in which the damage of DFT outdoes the one of Thunderlords?

Because doing the math, lets assume a lvl 10 champ with 100 AP. 4 Ticks of DFT = 33 dmg Thunderlords = 110 dmg

So at lvl 10 you would have to proc DFT 16 times to start doing more damage than Thunderlords.

That's why DFT does well on poke mages that really on steadily dropping hp. If you apply DFT for 16s you do more damage than thunderlord's and if you go to 20s it's even better. Basically the problem right now is: Thunderlord's is really good in general, but DFT is really good in specific cases. On top of it all AP favors DFT but AD favors thunderlord's yet both do magic damage (something I don't quite understand). They should theoretically match the damage type of whatever you have more of for balance reasons.

Crowe StalkerFeb 22, 20162 votes

Or, or, OR... If you, oh, I dunno, played someone that didn't rely on staying in combat for five seconds to keep damage going (like Swain or ) you will outdamage your opponent just by throwing a single spell (Swain's Torment actually amplifies damage he does) instead of going for a full trade? Plus Thunderlords has, at base, 25 second cooldown.

So you did about like 24 damage with Thunderlords level 2? Okay, Torment lasts about 4 seconds so I'm throwing an additional 10 (assuming no items/ap) to 14 damage (Doran's Ring, ignoring possible AP runes which would bump that up to possibly 22.5) on all of my spells. A Torment and Decrepify would outdamage your Thunderlords proc in nearly half the cooldown time.

This is of course, ignoring cases like Chogath who can literally just farm minions and just angle themselves so E hits you in the face and constantly refreshes, Karthus or Cassiopeia who literally have a spammable effect to keep it going, or who was the other abuse case.

The fact is your Thunderlords is good for trades and fights where you have an Orianna or Viktor (because there's no way in hell they'll stay close enough together for your Thunderlords to proc on more than two people at best) but Deathfire Touch exists for Harassment, and on champions who can press a button for harass, that's actually more efficient.

NekusenFeb 22, 20161 votes

Yeah i get it, i brought up the subject because im specifically building a Singed , i found out that he deals more damage if he engages in short battles and get thunderlords, but no one seem to use it on him in favor of graps or dft.

NavyDiveaFeb 22, 20161 votes

Its surprisingly good on Jhin, late game of course, due to his insane AD scaling.

spirit cookingFeb 22, 20161 votes

With thunderlords the enemy resistances apply once, with deathfire their resistances apply each tick, their health regen takes away from it, and health potion effect takes away from it.