As AD now has many ways to build penetration, different ways of killing tanks, lots of CDR and wide variety of passives.
This is ok, but mages should have more options to stir away of a sole build, specially ways to get CDR when they don't need mana regen, because they end up paying for regen they may not need.
Big Lincoln9 votesthey.. do?
You have utility items, offensive items, mana regen, health burning, % pen that factors base resistances, health items, mana items, the list goes on
AP champions have had the best itemization by far for years.
Nekusen11 votes[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmtQvXZo,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-12-18T03:04:39.857+0000)
they.. do?
You have utility items, offensive items, mana regen, health burning, % pen that factors base resistances, health items, mana items, the list goes on
AP champions have had the best itemization by far for years.
im talking about diversity, with AD, if you need to kill a tank 
, that's it, you have no choice. With AD, you can 
, etc. just to give a fast example.
you want cdr as a mage and you need mana? get 
, getting pounded by a mage, get 
.
you need cdr as a mage and you don't need mana regen? too bad, get .
want cdr as AD? 
this without counting supports.
Sightless663 votesSome of this is being a little too generous for the choices AD champions actually have, and too strict with the AP choices. I mean, if I"m playing an AD champion, there is no way I'm getting to actually choose between those 5 items. Realistically, I can probably choose about 2 of those at most on any given champion. Maaaaaybe 3 for some assassiny types, but even that is pushing it.
I mean, if we're really holding up Death's Dance and Ghostblade as CDR options for all AD champions, then I'm bringing out Lichbane and Wota as options for AP champions. After all, even Wota is better than Death's Dance right now.
Seriously man, you're really underselling the choices AP champions have right now, or at the very least you're not comparing them fairly to what the AD choices actually are.
Daedalus8711 votesI've been getting 
on some mages. Mainly Veigar/Utility mages.
forist3 votesim talking about diversity, with AD, if you need to kill a tank
you want cdr as a mage and you need mana? get
AP items for tank busting: ,
,, 
,
.
AD items for tank busting: ,
, , ,
.
I don't see a problem here.
CDR items for ap champs: , , 
, 
, 
,
, .
CDR items for ad champs: , , , , .
Still don't see how its unfair to ap champs.
Reposer8 votesNow, I'm not too sure we need much more for mages atm, a little in-between the two sides. However, your item choices are a ways off:
The AP tank-buster items you chose are generally fine, though is only good against healing tanks AND only works when they get under 40%, unlike the AD always-procced counterpart. Also, there are two items, 
, not just the one, so: 4 AP Pen items, and 6 AD items. Not too bad in general but those are my thoughts on that part.
However, CDR items need a look at. is the one that almost anyone can build, that's ok. in general is fine too, built on most anyone not touching . and are limited at best, only working on certain champions, and not generally an option for casters. is only good on Vlad and...yeah. is not an option on basically anyone outisde of supports, or maybe utility casters. And is a good item, though it's largely taken through necessity, because mages unable to take anything but / need to have a way to get CDR cap, and even then they'd need to get 
or take it in runes. In exchange, all of the AD items for CDR can be built on most of the champs that take AD items, be it a bruiser taking //, Assassin's Taking //, or Carries being able to get 30% CDR from and being able to build to cap it.
Anywho these are just my thoughts from reading through and seeing your post, maybe I got some things wrong, but this is what I've found. If nothing else, we need a more reliable way for mages to reach 40% CDR, or even 30% with an item not meant for supports, something more appealing to those wanting damage. One last thing is outside of the penetration/CDR stats, mages lack active items in the same sense as the AD champs. is useful because it gives an active, and outside of that there's really not much else other than things needed in specific cases, 
and 
, and they aren't mainbuild items in most cases, usually there for certain champs or countering, in case.
forist2 votesNow, I'm not too sure we need much more for mages atm, a little in-between the two sides. However, your item choices are a ways off:
The AP tank-buster items you chose are generally fine, though
However, CDR items need a look at.
Anywho these are just my thoughts from reading through and seeing your post, maybe I got some things wrong, but this is what I've found. If nothing else, we need a more reliable way for mages to reach 40% CDR, or even 30% with an item not meant for supports, something more appealing to those wanting damage. One last thing is outside of the penetration/CDR stats, mages lack active items in the same sense as the AD champs.
The reason is only listed once is because it has a unique passive. It wouldn't make sense for a champ to buy both versions. This is more or less balanced by the amount of true damage many ap champs have in their kits anyways.
As for cdr, the examples you are giving apply to ad champs as well. Many ad casters will not be building optimally, and for most marksmen it is not optimal to build . You have to look at it from both sides, yes the ad items can work on many different champs but they aren't optimal on all champs and the same applies for the ap cdr items listed, they work on many different champs but aren't the optimal choices. Also, as a side note is an absolutely terrible item on marksmen and assassins, bruisers its ok.
As for , you are well underestimating its potential. Mages can take it for the cdr, but the active is literally one of the strongest in the game atm. A 40% slow for 4 full seconds and invalidating stealth while revealing champs with a massive range, is pretty overloaded. Yes, it can be used for cdr cap, but mages are mostly abusing how strong it is at the moment. It gives cdr, extra gold generation, a decent amount of ap, mana regen, and an active that invalidates the biggest counter to mages: assassins. Thus the deserved nerfs its receiving this patch.
SpecterVonBaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=white demon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmtQvXZo,comment-id=00040000000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-18T18:56:26.827+0000)
The reason
Whut? Aside from Cho'Gath, Ahri, and Vel'Koz, what other AP champions are you seeing that deal true damage?
forist1 votesWhut? Aside from Cho'Gath, Ahri, and Vel'Koz, what other AP champions are you seeing that deal true damage?
Should have clarified, I meant percent health/true damage. Both of which are very effective against tanks: ex: 
, 
,
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
,
to name a a few.
NineTailedMystic2 votesFlat True Damage is countered by health. What do tanks build? Health, along with their resistances. The only true tank melters on your list is Vel Koz, Malz, Brand can with some effort, Fizz deletes indiscriminately, Elise has % current and % missing damage, kogmaw is bad right now, lol eve, and Ekko doesn't have True damage and his % missing health only procs as an execute.
forist1 votesFlat True Damage is countered by health. What do tanks build? Health, along with their resistances. The only true tank melters on your list is Vel Koz, Malz, Brand can with some effort, Fizz deletes indiscriminately, Elise has % current and % missing damage, kogmaw is bad right now, lol eve, and Ekko doesn't have True damage and his % missing health only procs as an execute.
Thus the term percentage health damage. But seriously, not all tanks build health. The reason I brought up true damage is because it ignores armor/magic resist making building magic/armor pen less necessary on some champs to still do good damage to tanks who build resistances, because the context of the conversation was magic penetration options for mages.
Agilsan8 votesI'm going to make this quick.
For roughly 90% of all ADCs it used to be: IE, BT, PD, Zerker, LW, GA.
I'm pretty sure every mage has a build that is specialized to them and also a unique build order. If anything ADCs were the one who needed the diversity that mages had. That's what they did, now of course since Tanks got the diversity last season, now the mages want even more stuff than the huge pool of items they can choose from already.
I understand that you want new things, but mages already have the diversity they need. The only staple item all mages get is Deathcap and very rarely Zhonyas.
Earl Eulrich1 votesgive it some pro-games and you´ll see that 90%of the time it´ll be IE->Shiv/RF/Hurricane->Shiv/RF/Hurricane->Lifesteal(maybe LW if the opponent runs tanks and has a lead). There´s even less diversity now, as ER and Trinity-builds now also focus on crit, ultimatly stramlining ADCs more than before.
Zorae422 votesExcept now individual ADCs have different builds depending on the opposing team/what their team needs. The same way tanks can choose between MR, Health, and Armor items depending on the situation.
Yes there are many different mage builds across all the mages. But each one never really varies from their specific build except for minor changes in build order.
It's just irritating that they said they were doing a rework of AP items earlier this year, and all they did was standardize item build paths and distributed AP values a bit more evenly. They did a marksman update and introduced new items to give them variety in their individual build paths. Now that ADC and Tanks can vary their individual builds from game to game, Mages (and even Assassins) should have the same ability.
7ha7guy7777 votesAs long as death cap exists and mages are required to get a mana sustain item, build diversity will be pretty low Deathcap is a must buy for most mages As is Voidstaff And either RoA, Nomicon, Athene's or Archangel's (+ RoA) Boots are usually going to be sorc or lucidity That leaves 2 item slots
If you lack cc in your kit you may want Rylai's If you have a DoT or just kill people with sustained damage you might get Liandry's If you're against a AD heavy team or you're someone who actually remembers to use the active you'll want Zhonya's If you auto often, Lich Bane and/or Nashor's Need MR and you happen to be a close range mage, get Abyssal Burst + mobility, Luden's
While mages have had great itemization for a long time, builds aren't really able to deviate much due to a large number of "required" items.
doombotMECHA1 votesnote that many ap champs (
and 
buy rylais/liandrys together for the best bonuses.
Jiharu7 votes
: Situational, good on some champs that have high mana costs 
etc
: Good if you have high mana costs but takes too long to build up(roa often better choice to go) 
: Must build on most mids that are burst mages that need an early lead with low mana costs
: Situational item that only some support build that have mr reduction in their kit 
: Also better for support over pure mage. Situational at best
: Must build early on most mages that have extended poke. 
: Situalional and requires builtin cc or a rylai
: Too risky to build on most mages.
: Core on most if not all mages
: Solid item on mages without great gap closers or slows in their kit 
: Any one can build
: Good 4/5 item on most mages
: over shadowed by
: only select number of champions use it 
The problem isn't the amount of items for mages, since they have a variety of situational items that cover every option. It's that selection is invalidated by nerfs to core items like or items being shifted out of existance by the game changing and few champions use it .
Just adding items can solve the issue, but they'd just shove another item into the void(rip )
YumaS2Astral1 votes
The problem isn't the amount of items for mages, since they have a variety of situational items that cover every option. It's that selection is invalidated by nerfs to core items like
Just adding items can solve the issue, but they'd just shove another item into the void(rip
I don't see how Athene is overshadowed by Morellonomicon. It is pretty good on mages that have such high mana costs and are spamming their spells a lot, and Morellonomicon by itself can't cover them. In addition, it seems that everyone forgets the second passive of this item, that recovers a big portion of your mana whenever you get a kill or assist.
This makes Athene's Unholy Grail a pretty good option over Morellonomicon on supportive mages like Lulu or Lux.
Jiharu1 votesI don't see how Athene is overshadowed by Morellonomicon. It is pretty good on mages that have such high mana costs and are spamming their spells a lot, and Morellonomicon by itself can't cover them. In addition, it seems that everyone forgets the second passive of this item, that recovers a big portion of your mana whenever you get a kill or assist.
This makes Athene's Unholy Grail a pretty good option over Morellonomicon on supportive mages like Lulu or Lux.
That's the problem, it's a support item that support rarely use. Double was considered better by most midlaners than athens. raw stats alone make it better and MR is a wasted stat unless the enemy is stacking 3 or 4 AP champs. With all the mana regen on support items, you don't even need the passive of athens in lane. So yeah, it's situational at best with all the new items for support and mid laners will get raw stats over conditional mana regen.
YumaS2Astral1 votesThat's the problem, it's a support item that support rarely use. Double
I didn't meant supports, I meant to say mages that have a lot of utility and essentially work as secondary supports. Lulu, Lux, and Orianna. I also use it on poke/siege mages like Xerath and Ziggs because they tend to spam their abilities and Morellonomicon is just not sufficient as a means of mana regeneration.
Jiharu1 votesI didn't meant supports, I meant to say mages that have a lot of utility and essentially work as secondary supports. Lulu, Lux, and Orianna. I also use it on poke/siege mages like Xerath and Ziggs because they tend to spam their abilities and Morellonomicon is just not sufficient as a means of mana regeneration.
I know what you mean and the mana regen on athens scales with mana which in the current meta takes to long to output the same regen as two . I'm saying the nerf to athens and item changes to support items and meta changes shoved athens into a niche role that almost no one benefits besides a select amount champs post the lane phase.
That's p much the issue with the majority items with ap on them. They have variety but lack stats to push them in viablity: such as cdr, ap, and passives.
Bonipherus5 votesChalice, Morellos, and other mana regen items need the marksman item treatment. Crit items are all supposed to fill a unique role and these items should too. The only differences between morellos and atheses are pretty much grievous wounds vs mr and regen on kill.
Craft Zeppelin4 votesWe dont have much active items that adds fun to a mage playstyle. I BET one of the reason why frostqueen is popular now is because of that
Earl Eulrich20 votesfrostqueen had been a nice little niche-item called "twin shadows" only a few patches back...yet nobody built it. But now that Frostqueen had been used in proplay suddenly the active is broken and we need more of that.
i hate humanity.
Nekusen4 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmtQvXZo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-18T03:00:27.869+0000)
frostqueen had been a nice little niche-item called "twin shadows" only a few patches back...yet nobody built it. But now that Frostqueen had been used in proplay suddenly the active is broken and we need more of that.
i hate humanity.
actually, Twin Shadows was my favorite item as it provided a little of most things a support needed: Movement Speed, CDR, nice AP (for a support item), and a nice active.
people just started to use FQC more because during s5 the item was terrible, bad active, gave little gold, and longstory short, upgrading Spellthief was not worth it
iHerring10 votesTwin Shadows was part of my standard mid lane AP builds and featured heavily on my supports. It had everything I wanted, CDR, movespeed, decent AP, handy active.
Then Rito deleted it, put the active onto an item I don't want (with a massive buff), made it a must buy for mid lane and now can't decide exactly how they want to gut it.
i cri
Nekusen5 votesTwin Shadows was part of my standard mid lane AP builds and featured heavily on my supports. It had everything I wanted, CDR, movespeed, decent AP, handy active.
Then Rito deleted it, put the active onto an item I don't want (with a massive buff), made it a must buy for mid lane and now can't decide exactly how they want to gut it.
i cri
they should re add Twin Shadows and have and it have the same unique active
Or at least add an item that gives CDR, movement speed and AP
iHerring5 votesPatch notes 6.1 Extra spooOOOoooky : Twin Shadows item will be reinstated, with the same stats and active that it had when we deleted it for some reason. But actually less spook : FQC will now, I don't know, launch a couple of short range slowing blasts. Like the old FQC but self targeting to champions and make it only like 400 range.
Can always dream.
SrKillaIot1 votesYou people are actually overestimating how good that item really is. Its not a bad item the slow is great to help you catch people but its not a most buy most have item for mid lane mages. Its mana regen is subpar at best for mid lane. And there is honestly better items that will help you will killing people in mid lane as a mage. I never get this item all it does is suck up a slot from my build that i would rather have something else and i still almost never lose to people building this. If i do lose to a mid laner with this item in the overall game its only because the other players on my team are equal to people just afking in the base the whole game. So i would of lost that match up no matter what that person built including all mob boots.
ShatoSummoner1 votesYep. Twin Shadows was a staple choice in mid if I needed the move speed and active for immobile casters or assassins (Le Blanc, Ahri, Orianna, Annie, etc.). While I also took it on utility mage supports (lulu, nami, etc.)
Vanillite1 votesLeBlanc is definitely mobile with her W and ult-W, Ahri as well with her ult Vel'Koz, Zyra, Cassio, Lux, and Viktor are way more immobile casters
IS1E531E3F9641931 votesdidn't every mage build it because it gave good stats, good mana regen and wasn't obscenely expensive like all AP items?
Old Man Teeto1 votesIt lacked mana regen, didn't generate gold, and was overpriced.
No one complained about the active being weak.
Sirsir1 votesTwin shadows was a support active on an ap item, now its a support active on a support item.
Pros do things (or DON'T do things) for a reason. Personally I never built FQC as a final item before cuz the active was meh compared to talisman. Now its competitive and maybe better.
falldown0102 votes[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmtQvXZo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-18T02:52:21.895+0000)
We dont have much active items that adds fun to a mage playstyle. I BET one of the reason why frostqueen is popular now is because of that
and its getting nerfed because of that Rip best support item for ap supports :(
SnugglePuggle941 votesAnd most of my sups are ap. Fml. They are nerfing that and buffing ad items again (recent patch has one item's armor pen buffed and i forget what else).
0.0
Lady Hammerlock1 votes[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmtQvXZo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-18T02:52:21.895+0000)
We dont have much active items that adds fun to a mage playstyle. I BET one of the reason why frostqueen is popular now is because of that
I HAVE A GREAT IDEA LETS BRING BACK DFG
YuGiHo3 votesrun 10%cdr from runes, get morello/athenes and get a void staff. it sucks but its our current reality till riot gives us more cdr options not tied to mana regen
Erockandroll2 votesWarning, Smartass incoming.
Do mages have as much build diversity as ADs do?
Completed items with an AD ratio: 
Completed items with an AP ratio: 
Nekusen3 votesWarning, Smartass incoming.
Do mages have as much build diversity as ADs do?
Completed items with an AD ratio:
Completed items with an AP ratio:
i just removed the support items from your list, also, if you remove devourer for ad ill remove runeglaive for mages.
rageblade is not a mage item, hextech gunblade is not a mage item.
im leaving them there, but most mages don't get anything from
also, you seem to be confusing ad-ap ratio with an item being for mages or not, for example, these are items used by AD champs 
and i was talking about specific diversity, having options in the mentioned scenarios.
Nekusen2 votesAnd now Riot said they are releasing a New AD assassin item instead, thank you Riot.... you are really listening.....
Dengeden1 votesAP items offer too much utility. If Rylai's, Liandry's, Mejai's, Gunblade, Lichbane aren't enough for you, there's nothing to be done.
Nekusen1 votesAP items offer too much utility. If Rylai's, Liandry's, Mejai's, Gunblade, Lichbane aren't enough for you, there's nothing to be done.
so many things to correct...
Rylais --> ( also can do it)
Liandry --> (note that in most cases Liandry's requires Rylais )
Mejai's is the absolute opposite of what utility means, it offers nothing more than raw power.
Gunblade, (this will be fun) offers little to none utility, it's NOT a mage item in any way, and also:
Same with Lichbane, it seems you don't know what utility means, also it's an item for AP champs that rely on auto attacks, NOT a mage item. IF you think that CDR + MS is utility, then:
Dengeden1 votesFine, in conjunction with most mage kits that generally offer a ton of scaling, CC and/or AoE, they offer too much utility.
Mallet and BoRK are ducking terrible right now, and so is the non-grievous LW. If you're really gonna use those examples, you're being incredibly ad hoc. ADs might have more options but those options are weak as all get out.
Nekusen1 votesI surely do miss twin shadows
?