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Can we talk about how bad the Q mana nerfs have made Sona feel?

RedCyclone··9 votes·637 views

If I could sum up Sona's pre 20 minute gameplay i would sum it up like this - Kill me

You don't get to do anything now early as Sona, specially against hard matchups (oh that's basically 3/4th of anyone who can go botlane now) As soon as you take even just a small trade, your mana bar is gone and you literally becomes a minion that saps XP until you go to base, countless times I have witnessed my adc go a little too far out to get one minion then get dived on by the enemy support and adc only for me to sit by idly and watch them get murdered because I am so exhausted just from managing small interactions in lane that other supports pay 1/4th of the mana for

This is the type of limited early to late scaling that I would expect after 30 mins I should be 1 shotting tanks for, but no Sona performs a bit over average lategame and many supports are still better in a 40+ minute condition

Sona's earlygame hasn't been that good for a long time, maybe the illusion that she comes in to smash a banger of a Q-Passive every once in a while makes her seem good, but catch her with any CC and she is a free pot of gold, it really didn't need the hard nerf to playing more aggressively because she is at her weakest when she is actively trading, it also causes a knock on effect with her gold generation due to not being able to proc your spellthieve as often because your Q kills your mana bar, and it also forces you to rush a Tear to address your god awful mana situation, pushing back her item queue for 750g

Even if Sona needed nerfing (honestly did it really need to happen, all her runes got nerfed, she was sitting at 52% w/r before the patch what is pretty normal for Sona) they should have hit her lategame rather then early, most games don't even last long enough for Sona to consider "early" to be over and I just feel like I have wasted my time when I get in games that snowball so hard

Can I play the game again please?

22 Comments

Red Wreckage3 votes

I actually feel wonderful

Without having to see this champ every 2nd game in enemy team....I'm having an overall better ingame experience :)

RedCyclone4 votes

Oh look a Sona thread, let me add nothing because I don't like this champ and they should stay bad

If only that logic worked

Red Wreckage1 votes

dat works really well in keeping Yasuo in trash. :^)

D357R0Y3R3 votes

so the personal experience of one player should rule the entire design and balance talk

:thinking:

:^)

Red Wreckage1 votes

applies to OP and all who support sona buffs as well

"personal experience of OP and a small group of sona players should rule the entire design and balance talk"

prioritize 1 sona player and completely forget 5 other who are on opposing team :^)

D357R0Y3R1 votes

Not at all...

OP was talking about how Sona feels in general as any Sona player, you can argue with him that it's false and some players do not feel like that but you didn't you just randomly pointed out your own experience as a player against Sona which is irrelevant! because anecdotes are not rules, and morever you didn't even point out an anecdote just your feelings that is purely subjective

see the difference? well if you don't it doesn't matter anyway because like i said design is not ruled by a single personal experience

also if your experience is better when Sona is not there you should question about yourself because Sona is the easier support to kill.... number wise and design wise!

Miku Hime sama3 votes

Pretty much summed it up exactly.

It's also worth noting that the purpose of the support class is to be strong in lane. By nature, a late-game support is an inherently flawed concept and like you said, nerfing her early game in favor of the nonexistent "late game fantasy" is the completely opposite direction of what Sona needs.

However, until the passive on her R key gets deleted from the game, she'll never be allowed to be in a competitively-viable state.

TheWizardM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYfYAcmk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-20T10:12:16.657+0000)

Pretty much summed it up exactly.

It's also worth noting that the purpose of the support class is to be strong in lane. By nature, a late-game support is an inherently flawed concept and like you said, nerfing her early game in favor of the nonexistent "late game fantasy" is the completely opposite direction of what Sona needs.

However, until the passive on her R key gets deleted from the game, she'll never be allowed to be in a competitively-viable state.

Taric

Miku Hime sama1 votes

Taric has Sona's ult on a pre-level 6 basic ability. Albeit with a delayed cast-time. Then he has an actual ult on top of this.

Taric doesn't sacrifice his lane to be strong-ish in the late game. As a matter-of-fact, I was literally saying yesterday that Taric is exactly what Sona would look like, if she were a melee-tank with a successful design. Rather than her current design of being the squishiest character in the game, but still with 3 melee-range basic abilities.

TheWizardM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYfYAcmk,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-20T10:17:36.620+0000)

Taric has Sona's ult on a pre-level 6 basic ability. Albeit with a delayed cast-time. Then he has an actual ult on top of this.

Taric doesn't sacrifice his lane to be strong-ish in the late game. As a matter-of-fact, I was literally saying yesterday that Taric is exactly what Sona would look like, if she were a melee-tank with a successful design. Rather than her current design of being the squishiest character in the game, but still with 3 melee-range basic abilities.

Taric has a way worse earlygame than sona, as he can cast about 3-4 spells before running out of mana, about half of what sona can. Not to mention sona has about twice his range, meaning sona has to take absolutely no risk using her poke combos.

Miku Hime sama3 votes

This is just blatantly untrue. Sona has higher-costing spells, roughly the same base mana and DOESN'T HAVE HARD FUCKING CC PRE-FUCKING 6.

Sona goes out of mana after only about 3-4 spells. She's no better than Taric in that regard. However, she also starts with 100 less HP and 12 less armor. Not to mention her range is roughly the same as Taric's STUN. Which Sona does not have a pre-6 stun. Or any hard cc pre-6. Furthermore, Sona's singular damage spell has less than HALF the base damage of Taric's STUN. Also, Sona's heal has the same base as just ONE of Taric's heal charges. Of which he can stack 3 of. Then, Taric gets even more free armor just for leveling up W and gives his ally free armor too. Also, assuming Taric has +0 bonus health, his shield is almost twice as strong as Sona's AND has a longer duration. Of course, Taric will almost guaranteed have bonus health, making that shield even stronger.

This is all public information:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Taric

TheWizardM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vYfYAcmk,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-20T11:00:14.120+0000)

This is just blatantly untrue. Sona has higher-costing spells, roughly the same base mana and DOESN'T HAVE HARD FUCKING CC PRE-FUCKING 6.

Sona goes out of mana after only about 3-4 spells. She's no better than Taric in that regard. However, she also starts with 100 less HP and 12 less armor. Not to mention her range is roughly the same as Taric's STUN. Which Sona does not have a pre-6 stun. Or any hard cc pre-6. Furthermore, Sona's singular damage spell has less than HALF the base damage of Taric's STUN. Also, Sona's heal has the same base as just ONE of Taric's heal charges. Of which he can stack 3 of. Then, Taric gets even more free armor just for leveling up W and gives his ally free armor too. Also, assuming Taric has +0 bonus health, his shield is almost twice as strong as Sona's AND has a longer duration. Of course, Taric will almost guaranteed have bonus health, making that shield even stronger.

This is all public information:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Taric

Taric relies on spamming his spells with his passive, sona doesn't. Sona is also more flexible, her q has ~200 more range than taric stun, and she has no skillshots except for her ult, which is quite easy to hit due to its massive size. Taric on the other hand has 3 abilities that can be considered skillshots, and is only able to consistently do stuff in an all-in fight, due to his passive. Even if you count sona's aa range as her range, taric stun has a delay and is a skillshot, making sona combo still less risky and more reliable to land. Sona has a higher base mana and base mana regen, as well as a higher base magic resist, making her able to stay in lane for much longer than taric. Once out of mana, sona can cast a spell every 6 seconds, whereas taric can cast one every 8 seconds. Both have the same base heal, and sona's has a shorter cd. Taric shield does not scale with his health, but rather his target's health. As ad carries don't buy health, his shield will be about 40 in the early game, which is indeed more than sona's shield, but is also way less mana-efficient. Both champions have about equal cost spells, meaning Sona can cast 2-3 more spells before having to level up or back. The difference in health is to be expected as taric is melee and thus takes more dmg from minions and other sources during trades. Both champions have a relatively weak early game and strong lategame, but sona most definetely has a better early game.

Darkeus4 votes

Then again, Taric is the Top Winrate Support and Sona is below 50%. So.... Hmmm.

Who is more powerful right now?

Miku Hime sama1 votes

{quoted}

Taric relies on spamming his spells with his passive, sona doesn't.

Power Chord: After Sona casts 3 spells, she can use her passive. Sona is actually MORE reliant on spamming spells for her passive, than Taric his.

Sona is also more flexible, her q has ~200 more range than taric stun, and she has no skillshots except for her ult, which is quite easy to hit due to its massive size.

This is a common misconception. The max range of Sona's Q (which is only 40 damage) is only 700 range, the values on the wiki are incorrect. Furthermore, it only prioritizes champions that are within 600 range of Sona and then she MUST follow-up with a 550-range basic attack to fully utilize its effect. Taric's STUN is 575 range from both himself AND his tagged ally. His range is essentially the same as Sona's, except he's a tank, with hard CC, that makes his ally tankier too. So Taric's STUN is a skillshot... Technically two skillshots, making it twice as hard to dodge. Its base damage is still more than double the optimal damage from Sona's Q. Also, it's a STUN.

Taric on the other hand has 3 abilities that can be considered skillshots, and is only able to consistently do stuff in an all-in fight, due to his passive. Even if you count sona's aa range as her range, taric stun has a delay and is a skillshot, making sona combo still less risky and more reliable to land.

If you're allowed to call Taric's spells that AUTO-TARGET the ally he's tethered to "skillshots," then I'm allowed to call Sona's entire kit "skillshots" since all 3 basic abilities are lingering actives that she has to be in melee-range of an ally to utilize. You know, since she doesn't tether to an ally that gets auto-targeted. Also, Sona is not a tank, despite all 3 of her spells being melee-range.

Sona has a higher base magic resist

Sona's magic resistance: 30 - 38.5 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona Taric's magic resistance: 32.1 – 53.4 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Taric

I'm done here. There's no point in my trying to reason with somebody who's just intentionally creating selective disinformation. Even after I spoonfed you both of their wiki pages to see for yourself.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Taric has a way worse earlygame than sona, as he can cast about 3-4 spells before running out of mana, about half of what sona can. Not to mention sona has about twice his range, meaning sona has to take absolutely no risk using her poke combos.

No, Taric has a worse 1-5 than Sona before now. Once he hits 6 and gets ult, Taric's value sky rockets...similar to Rakan, but more defensive.

Those are scaling champions done right. Sona's is done fucking horribly.

GinoSoldier3 votes

Not to mention how impossible Sona Mid has become to play. She already barely did enough damage before, now that's been nerfed along with whatever little waveclear she had. As full AP-scaled Sona i still get to feel like a god, but it takes extreme caution and care to get there, and i almost never powerspike before 30 minutes anymore. Something needs to change.

TheWizardM1 votes

{quoted}

Not to mention how impossible Sona Mid has become to play. She already barely did enough damage before, now that's been nerfed along with whatever little waveclear she had. As full AP-scaled Sona i still get to feel like a god, but it takes extreme caution and care to get there, and i almost never powerspike before 30 minutes anymore. Something needs to change.

If you can't buy lich bane before 30 you seriously need to work on your farm.

GinoSoldier3 votes

Problem is; Lich's Bane isn't enough anymore. Other AP champions still largely outburst her, and it's much worse now with her base AD reduced (getting there is harder because of sheen being weaker), and her Q on-hit base damage nerfed by half. Lich's Bane also doesn't provide actual mana sustain contrarily to people rushing Morello, or survivability compared to people who can afford to rush Zhonyas, RoA or Abyssal, any of which pretty much make it impossible for her to nab kills, even with Lich's Bane.

TheWizardM2 votes

Sona's scaling, utility, and low cooldowns more than make up for early mana issues. Comare her to taric for instance; he is harder to play, takes more risks, and has even worse mana issues (he has mana issues up untill the late midgame). Even so, he's still viable, as his laning phase is good enough, and his teamfight potential, just like sona, is through the roof.

RedCyclone3 votes

Taric has way more earlygame influence then Sona though, he atleast has tools, Sona got her early tool taken away

Rexxiee1 votes

Sona is trash atm, 45% win rate in korea plat +.

She needs those last few nerfs reverted.

RedCyclone1 votes

43% in diamond

This was a champion who sat at 52% average for 5+ years, no one complains about her outside of ripples (Rework, Runes, Item changes, ARAM i guess) This is pretty suck, she doesn't work at high elo now because of how counterable she is

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