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A revisit on AP Shyvana

Illabethe··8 votes·4,686 views

[img]https://i.imgur.com/wOBS6JC.png[/img]

Yeah. I brought this up a week ago.

AP Shyvana is broken, and her win rates/damage ratios support this thesis.

I wanted to post this game specifically because

  1. Xerath is arguably the highest dps artillery mage in the game per game outside of Karthus.
  2. Ezreal is arguably the highest dps adc (even if their damage doesn't always translate into a kill)
  3. Draven is arguably the highest damage/carry adc in the game when on a streak/win.

I did more than double all their damage.

You want to know how?

I just Shyvana Dragon formed on "Nothing" (Didn't even use it on a target except in one or two fights), and then slung an E at a group of champions.

Just how much damage did one E do?

Well..... at 606 AP, I was reducing their entire team to 1/3 HP, and the Burn actually killed several of them after it landed.

They actually attempted 2 Drakes, and a Baron. Each time, I just E'd into them and they were forced to abandon the take, even though my team wasn't there. At baron a single E killed 2, and then I killed the other three as they tried to retreat through their jungle. I didn't even have vision on them; I just threw an E into the bush they were running to, and saw them take the initial damage...... and 3 seconds later...... TRIPLE KILL.

Yeah.

And yeah. the build didn't hinder my On hit capability at all. I still had 40% CDR, and my attack speed was 1.72, and the very first Q after I attacked someone would kill them.

22 Comments

lavieesdrôle10 votes

Stop trying to call for nerfs on something that doesn't deserve it. You carried a Silver game against a bunch of animals and consider yourself worth nerfing? Please shut up and play the game

Illabethe2 votes

Keep logging on all your alternate accounts to protect a cheese you like.

For the record: I just had a Morgana top stalemate me in top. but STILL outdamage both teams. My Team's Yasuo was using a Team starvation tactic too, where he would int to the other team 1v5, and on the ress, they would be offensively engaged with the other 4 of us. He would ress, last hit all our targets, and then int again to feed the bounties.

I STILL outdamaged everyone. Every single E did over half their HP.

Iota Theta7 votes

Cool. You ran a more AoE AP cheese build against Silvers that built 0 defense against it outside Sion and Thresh.

Floupi4 votes

Lol most of the time she is useless it is just a cheesy snowball build (still a funny offmeta build, riot should add more )

Illabethe2 votes

Literally just had a game where I didn't snowball, had 9900 G and did 35k Champ damage, while my team was inting.

Düff McWhalen2 votes

{quoted}

Lol most of the time she is useless it is just a cheesy snowball build (still a funny offmeta build, riot should add more )

It's a fantastic build. It just either does REALLY good, or REALLY bad depending on what you're fighting.

Düff McWhalen3 votes

Don't touch my dragon waifu! >:( [sg-shisa]

Saevum1 votes

Sadly, i cannot open your profile to check the rest of the statistics. Do you have the graphics of your gold and items power spike at a certain time during the match? There is so much missing info. Need to see if your dear opponents lost to a fed shyvana or if they just got murdered for not buying MR.

Illabethe2 votes

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2992791384/243999882?tab=overview

And does it matter? I basically passively farmed and waited for each drake. I only entered Top lane once, because Sion was a juicy target.

I went bot around 12:00 and Ulted through their turret behind them, nuked Thresh to death, and then team mopped up Ez.

That was the entire premise of whatever "feed" I got. The rest was all Drake contest/Baron Contest + Pyke/Shyvana duo near top lane, where Pyke stole 3 of my kills with his ult (gave me the gold, but they were actually my kills)

I wasn't even playing aggressively.

Sion had Mag Resist, and I killed him like 6 times. In fact, everyone but Ezreal/Xerath had resist.

I had Echo done by 10:22 I had Nashors done by 17:55 Death Cap 24:37 Guinsoo's 28:30

Something I want to emphasize: Vayne was pretty much int feeding their Xerath mid, so it's not like he didn't have an early snowball.

Saevum1 votes

Only The Sion had a Spectre's Cowl before you got your Nashor but he didn't went mercs, probably cause you had a Draven and a Vayne, Thresh had 2 null mantles but no extra health, basically you killed bot lane with your jungle Luden's and a Amp Tome + Codex. No wait, actually, you killed thresh at like 11:40 and then he bought his second null mantle. So you killed him with only your jungle item complete. Ok. He was underleveled, He went mobies instead of mercs, which was part of the downfall.

LuL, botlane killed you at 6:20~ went for some payback i see.

In regards of Xerath,which is the one that had more agency on gold due to kills, never bought a single anything of MR. There is no Banshee's Veil on sight. Master Yi. No Wits end, no Hexdrinker at least no nothing. Would be nice if we could check if your opponents went for at least some MR with the Runes they had. That would bring some light into the Equation.

But, overall: My veredict is inflated Damage ratios due to poor itemization against it.

i'll move out now.

Iota Theta2 votes

Poor itemization and AoEs. AoE’s always inflate damage numbers, like how tanks can have high numbers just from hitting their AoE spells, even iF they didn’t get any kills. Ezreal also never hit his second tear item, which is when his damage really kicks in.

Illabethe1 votes

Aoe doesn't always inflate numbers. Zyra has to play perfectly to get high numbers, and Xerath was FED. If you look at team score, it was all ME.

I just had another game where I had an inting Yas down mid entire game and a sluggish top lane vs a Morgana. I was behind and STILL outdamaged both teams.

In 9900G I did 36,000 champ damage.

(Didn't mean crap though since my team was running down mid fight after fight)

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Aoe doesn't always inflate numbers. Zyra has to play perfectly to get high numbers, and Xerath was FED. If you look at team score, it was all ME.

I just had another game where I had an inting Yas down mid entire game and a sluggish top lane vs a Morgana. I was behind and STILL outdamaged both teams.

In 9900G I did 36,000 champ damage.

(Didn't mean crap though since my team was running down mid fight after fight)

AoE absolutely inflates damage numbers. Deal 300 damage to one target compared to 5, or 1500 to one target in a burst compared to multiple AoE in a drawn out fight.

With a single E, you’re dealing about 600 damage. Hit three champs, and you’ve suddenly dealt 1800 damage. Hit all 5 and you’re damage spikes to 3k. It does not always give the best reading of damage output, especially against 0 bonus MR targets.

It’s effectively a cheese build, against Silvers and Bronze in this instance, like AP Malphite, Lethality Garen, and the like. Show it working against diamond+, who know how Shyvana plays and paths, how to track her, and then how often it works, and then we’ll see.

Illabethe2 votes

Okay. Here's the deal:

  1. Single target champs do increased per hit damage to compensate for aoe damage. Ez CONSISTENTLY has been one of the top dpsers per game, even though he's a single target. Vayne often outdps's aoe champs.

  2. I was hitting over 1400. 600 is basically some tone down talk based on people trying to defend it.

  3. Stats at high elo say otherwise. This IS the prevalent high elo build, and it's pulliing over a 60% win rate.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Okay. Here's the deal:

  1. Single target champs do increased per hit damage to compensate for aoe damage. Ez CONSISTENTLY has been one of the top dpsers per game, even though he's a single target. Vayne often outdps's aoe champs.

Perhaps per hit. But total? AoE in fights racks up a lot though for total damage. In the case of Shyvana’s dragon E, it’s AoE, which adds up over time.

  1. I was hitting over 1400. 600 is basically some tone down talk based on people trying to defend it.

Bullcrap. I did the math. There is no way you were hitting 1400 on E. It’s a 70% AP ratio, 220 base at max rank. You said you had 606 AP, so that translates to 424.2 damage from AP, so 642 damage. Are you saying you had more AP? are you counting The scorched ground ticks that they somehow stood in for the full 4 seconds?

  1. Stats at high elo say otherwise. This IS the prevalent high elo build, and it's pulliing over a 60% win rate.

Shyvana has a 52% win rate with 4% pick rate at plat+. Half of that time, she’s building AP items. According to lolalytics, runic into nashor is happening 30% of her games at a 53 winrate of those matches. Runic echoes itself is a first buy in 47.39% of her matches, carrying then a winrate in those matches bought of 51.93%. Runic into nashor into morello is 9.19 of her games, carrying a 56.95 winrate of that 9.19%. Listed as only 2,790 matches. In the long run, that isn’t a lot of matches.

High elo? Let’s check with the top Shyvana players. strikerthebeast, #1 Shyvana, never buys AP. Catttt #2, no AP firstquality, #4c no AP. 3rd best Shyvana, Goophed, does. 6 does. 8, 9, and 12 does. Some of those though have less than 10 games played recently.

Not enough proof for me. It’s still cheese sounding.

Edit: formatting

Illabethe

Her friggin E on Dragon form is NOT 70% AP (Stop using the wiki; it doesn't itemize the additional damage from being in Dragon form on E)

The real Dragon form E:

60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+70%)

Active: Shyvana unleashes a fireball that stops after hitting a champion. All enemies hit take magic damage and are marked for 5 seconds. Shyvana's basic attack against marked targets deal [+3.25% their maximum] as magic damage on hit.

Dragon Form: Flame Breath explodes on impact or at the target location, dealing bonus magic damage and scorching the earth for 4 seconds. Enemies on scorched earth take magic damage per second.

Bonus Damage:

Bonus Damage: 100 - 200 (+30% AP)

Burn Damage: Damage per second: 60 - 120 (+20% AP)(10% AD)

If you have 900 AP, this boils down to:

220 + (.7900) + 100-200 + (.3900) for the initial hit. = 1220-1320 damage on the initial hit. The Burn will hit each target at least once as well, so the immediate damage adds at least 232.9-332.9 damage to that, resulting in at least

1452.9 - 1679 damage per use.

If the target is CC'd on your burn pile, it will hit 3 more times.

You can also use this skill 4 times per R without even attacking anything to gain rage.

At 606 AP, I was doing about 1100 per hit. With a Echo, it hits more, DH hits, and the burns keep ticking away.

I really suggest you go try it in Practice mode or something before you use fallacious math. (Dummies have 100 Mag Resist, or about 50% reduction. With just 3 items you will hit 660 to them)

  1. You're ignoring non jungle builds, Nashor first builds, and Death Cap after builds.
Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Her friggin E on Dragon form is NOT 70% AP (Stop using the wiki; it doesn't itemize the additional damage from being in Dragon form on E)

I really suggest you go try it in Practice mode or something before you use fallacious math. (Dummies have 100 Mag Resist, or about 50% reduction. With just 3 items you will hit 660 to them)

Dude, first off, calm down. You could’ve stated that normally instead of suddenly going off with an attitude like you did. I did find it after you said it, poor formatting on the wiki page.

My math in itself was not wrong. It was damage she would be doing normally.

I won’t be going to check it on practice mode. Why? Cause I don’t own Shyvana, nor do I really care to own her.

As for the actual build, so what you’re telling me is you did most of this in dragon form. Cool, Malphite can dish out a ton of damage if built AP. This is just a deviant build, not used nearly as much or has as high of a winrate as you’ve been claiming, and most of the top Shyvana players don’t even touch it.

  1. You're ignoring non jungle builds, Nashor first builds, and Death Cap after builds.

What? Why would I consider those when they are not relevant data?

Non-jungle: Shyvana, total pick rate of 3.76. Jungle pick rate of 3.52. So she is picked outside of the jungle in .25% of all games. Statisical outlier, not worth looking at.

Nashor first: just Nashor as her one item is 7% of her games. Nashor into Runic is 3-4%. Third item from those is less han 2%. Maybe the 7% Nashor first item, but based on further data, it’s not that relevant.

Deathcap after: at three items, the two paths that show Rabadon’s are 3.56% and .57% pickup rate. Four item and full build get statistically smaller and smaller pickup rates, as people deviate for situational items or they just never get there.

The only AP item worth noting is Runic in just under half her games, but even Gragas built it when he was still more tanky. The data’s showing beyond Runic this isn’t the most built.

Illabethe3 votes

IT IS USED 55% of the TIME, HAS A HIGHER WIN RATE THAN ANY OTHER BUILD, AND 80% of the DAMAGE IS FROM A SINGLE ABILITY.

And no. Your math IS wrong, because it's not including Dragon form Bonus damage.

The fact you want to cite an opinion when you say you don't even OWN Shyvana is nothing short of ludicrous. (I have ALL champions unlocked on 5 different accounts! And Shyvana is a cheap one).

Malphite does NOTHING compared to this build; his only damage in AP form is a 1 shot use of ult. Not REPEATING skills, that aoe and burn everyone.

Why would you include them? WTF?

item 1402 item 3115 item 3089 item 3115 item 1402 item 3089 item 1402 item 3089 item 3115 item 1402 item 3165 item 3115 item 3115 item 1402 item 3165 item 1402 item 3165 item 3089

ALL have different pick rates, but are essentially THE SAME BUILD.

The reason Death Cap has a low pick rate after 3 items IS BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY BOUGHT.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

The fact you want to cite an opinion when you say you don't even OWN Shyvana is nothing short of ludicrous. (I have ALL champions unlocked on 5 different accounts! And Shyvana is a cheap one).

Well, it has not been fun. right here is where I leave you, cause I tire of your condescension.

This is a public forum for the game. I play the game. I am allowed to comment on things within the game whether I own or play a champion or not. Just because I don’t play the champ does not mean I never interact. I addressed statistics, never seeing this “55% of the time”, and high elo. And you just shout me down. Bye. Good luck on your crusade.

Kazekiba1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vQeFwFkY,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-07T00:34:17.093+0000)

AoE absolutely inflates damage numbers. Deal 300 damage to one target compared to 5, or 1500 to one target in a burst compared to multiple AoE in a drawn out fight.

With a single E, you’re dealing about 600 damage. Hit three champs, and you’ve suddenly dealt 1800 damage. Hit all 5 and you’re damage spikes to 3k. It does not always give the best reading of damage output, especially against 0 bonus MR targets.

It’s effectively a cheese build, against Silvers and Bronze in this instance, like AP Malphite, Lethality Garen, and the like. Show it working against diamond+, who know how Shyvana plays and paths, how to track her, and then how often it works, and then we’ll see.

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=goophed I heard about it from watching streamers, and while theyre pushing ~50% WRs it's still disgustingly efficient. Doesn't need nerfs - it's part of the champion's kit on purpose and it isn't resulting in massive win rates or making her suddenly appearing in games she shouldn't, but hooooooo boy is it stronger than you expect her to be.

Cojak1 votes

I feel like I'm the only one who agrees with this guy. AP Shyv is broken and onejust ran a mid lane on me doing very well for herself. I'd need to see more games to get a full feel of it, but its really powerful, and begs the question of is it right. I think Riot should look into to it at least imo, because this can't be healthy, or what was intended.

Illabethe1 votes

My opinion? It's because although her E is extremely strong, it can't generally solo-carry. It can put whole teams at 40% HP and possibly kill a couple, but if your team is nonexistent, you're basically just throwing up a lot of damage in a 1v5.

ie..... the lower the elo, the less of a win impact it has.

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