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Apparently, some people can't do math

Azeranth··15 votes·1,144 views

So I'll help you understand this.

ADC gold efficiency is absolutely absurd. First of all, the itemization cost of zeal items is among the lowest in the game. It's similar in cost to some support items. Truly absurd. Add into that the absolutely overloaded effects of shiv and RFC, or the stupid quantity of durability PD gives. And get this, there is a stacking movement speed bonus for every zeal item. Yeah, bet you didn't know that one. The "unique passive" on zeal, stops being unique upon upgrade.

Now, the accurate and well intentioned response to this is "Well what about BT, Maw, Deaths Dance that are among the worst expensive items in the game" and they're right. For the most part, ADCs require some AD to make full use of their attack speed and crit. But, enter here a concept called "Synergistic efficiency"

So, I'm sure as you all know, the effective health of a Target is dependent upon their health and resistance stats. More health makes resistance more efficient and vice versa. It give late game tanks a scaling advantage over bruisers and assassins. But, that's two stats that work together. What if, we could imagine a set of stats that work together in a group of three. Like, idk, Crit, Attack Speed, and Attack Damage?

So, here is a fun concept, the more attack speed and crit you have, the more efficient AD is, BUT unlike in health and resistance, the efficiency increase is itself exponentially growing because AS and Crit synergize as well.

So, no, ADCs do not have expensive paths, because the cheapness of items that give both Attack Speed AND Crit makes the expensive point for AD items so irrelevant because of how overwhelmingly efficient it becomes. I mean laughably irrelevant. Like Aatrox 0/23 with at 15 minutes kind of irrelevant.

Oh also, DING DING bonus round. Let's talk about distributive efficiency. Notice how for tanks, an item gives primarily health or resistance. Thorn mail is armor weighted, Visage is Mr weighted, omen is armor weighted, Sunfire is health weighted, Warmogs is all health, omen is armor weighted. As a result of this, you can not rely on several types of similar items. I have to mix it up, and take trade off at times, and sometimes can't even consider certain tank build because the armor/MR distribution in relation to when I get my health makes my build very innefficient until certain power spikes. Those spikes are often based on full items.

Now consider the distribution of crit and AS in the real items. It's nearly identical in them all. There is no relative pacing efficiency for each item, because they're all the same. Which btw, is the MOST EFFICIENT BASE COMBINATION OF AS AND CRIT. Yeah, imagine that, it stacks in perfect proportion to be efficient without power spike relveance between items to maximize each other's usefullness. The order in which Zeal items are built is not important compared to the importance in order of tank and bruiser items. I keep mentioning tanks, but only because I can't stomach the sickening feeling I get looking at the disparity to bruiser build limits and efficiencies.

FIX YOUR GAME RIOT, YOU MAKE ENOUGH MONEY IN SKINS, MAYBE ASK A FEW ACCOUNTANTS TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOUR BALANCE TEAM.

In conclusion, AP champs scale mostly linearly. Along with bruisers and assassins.

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Tanks benefit from resist health synergy and scale quadratically, but they have numerous handicaps like uneven proportionality, spike dependence, and low damage.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512

ADCs get Cubic scaling, because they have three stats working in their favor, all multiplicative, and those stats are hand fed to braindead ADCs who never need to consider build path because of perfect proportions. That looks like this

1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683

But don't worry, despite all this disparity, absurd efficiency, uncapped stacking (unlike CDR), and perfectly spoon fed proportionality of stats, ADC items aren't 100% busted beyond belief. Trust Riot, buy your illaoi skin.

42 Comments

xelaker6 votes

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzln2vsRZo1qzlvmi.gif

Siyther5 votes

downvoted not because your points btu because you say adc = braindead and never itemizes builds lol Thats just not true

Azeranth3 votes

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Azeranth4 votes

I meant there is no trade off except in the passive to the order in which you build zeal items. For example if Shiv gave significantly more attack speed than RFC, I'd build RFC after bork instead of Shiv, because that's the more efficient path. ADC itemization doesn't require you to take those things into account. The role is not braindead, which is why I have a healthy respect for the players, especially their microplay, but the reason bot lane is so cancer with the over heal stuff, is because ADCs have such cheap items that farm it out works without making them irrelevant midgame. And ADC has to get fed to be relevant mid game, when the Meta is healthy, but when it's not healthy, these boring farm it out 4 man diving bot lanes happen.

ADC isn't braindead. There is simply a disconnect between the design and complexity of the ADC role and the corresponding itemizations, which do not place upon the player the same kind of risky buy order decisions present in other roles.

Thanks for feedbacks though, can I have my upvote back?

Siyther2 votes

sure why not lol

AirKingNeo1 votes

You're saying a bunch of numbers without attaching it to the game. How much impact is 1% AS? How much impact is 1 AD? How much is 1 AP worth and how does CDR change it?

Azeranth1 votes

The numbers are all available in the documentation for the game, with the explanation of their standards and such. The point is in understanding where ADCs derive their scaling potential from, then understanding how that should inform the relative cost related stats such as AD, AS, and crit. Also, percent AS is relevant to the base AS of the champion, which is what is effected. Enjoy that read.

But for demonstration purposes, lets assume I have 200 AD and 1 AS. I deal 200 DPS before resistances. Now, if I have 400 AD and .5 AS, I also do 200 DPS.

As is shown, AD and AS are multiplicatively linked. Their product is the DPS.

In the second situation, gaining an additional 75 AD from an item such as Bloodthirster gives me only an additional 37.5 DPS, where as in the second case it gives me 75 DPS. This is because of diminishing returns. So, after buying a bunch of attack speed, to get my 1 AS, the relative efficiency of the AD item increases when compared to my DPS in the .5 case.

Because I previously bought AS, the AD was more efficient than if I had previously bought a bunch of AD items. However, for burst purposes AD is more valuable hence why it's run on bruisers despite being inefficient.

So, if you can imagine, let's say that from the base stats of most Marksmen, AS is more efficient as a first item than an AD item such as lethality (this is why they changed it a while back, because lethality AD was more efficient) buying a bunch of really cheap AS increases the efficiency of a later AD purchase. I'm getting far more bang for my buck when I do finally buy my Bork, IE, ER, or BT. As a result, the value of AD items in ADC builds is irrelevant because AS can be stacked and remain efficient enough in the mid game (because it's so cheap) then still scale into late game because AD items are so efficient after stacking AS.

Crit, which increases DPS by (1+ .01*crt chance)*current DPS, inly compounds this issue. Stacking AS isn't punished by more smooth scaling builds because the AS is so cheap, the game is over before the proper build can scale.

The solution is to normalize the values of crit AD, and AS items such that it is reasonable to build them in a distributed manner, and make stacking unreasonable due to the lack of impact it is able to have. Shrinking the window where stacking AS is better than a scaling build.

zoliking1 votes

Ok, doubling down on your nonsense, interesting choice.

{quoted}

The way in which the diminishing returns is acheived is such that it is bound in efficiency by health. It's a concept called "effective helath"

Diminishing returns is achieved by scaling damage reduction on a hyperbolic scale with armor and mr. If you don't know the meaning of a term look it up or don't use it. Quote from the wiki: "Effective burst health, commonly referred to just as effective health, describes the amount of raw burst damage a champion can receive before dying in such a short time span that he remains unaffected by any form of health restoration (even if the actual considered damage is of sustained form)."

AS let's you deal your AD worth of damage more times per second, an increase in either will create an increase in overall DPS. However, these also experience diminishing returns. 1 AS with 50 AD is equal DPS to 100 AS .5 AD. So it's about obtaining balance. It also means that the more AD you have the, more efficient buying AS becomes, because it's a multiplier, not a sum component. Crit is yet another multiplier. Because there are 3 multiplicative factors at play, ADC can scale more. It's why they can carry. It's not magic, it's math.

Look, your idea seems to be that having more factors in the dps formula gives some amazing advantage to adcs over tanks whose primary stats come down to damage reduction and hp. The number of factors is irrelevant. Which number is greater: 21000000 or 55*5? If you want to argue that the DR being on a hyperbolic curve gives adc-s an advantage over tanks at certain stages of the game, then do the math and I'm willing to listen. But repeating nonsense ad nauseam will not do anything other than to communicate indignation and confusion.

The issue is that the gold price points for ADC items are too low in the crit department, which means that the relative cost of AD is irrelevant, because the ability to buy a ton of crit negates the cost of AS because of Synergistic efficiency. If you don't believe me, go read the documentation from Riot themselves about efficiency, independent efficiency, stat synergy, diminishing returns, gold values, and effective DPS/Health. Go, go on. Read it.

If you want to argue that crit items are too cheap in comparison to other items in terms of raw dps, you only have to do some easy math. (And this is be the most sensible claim you made so far). Calculate the dps increase from each item and divide by gold. Of course this will not do much to actually evaluate the item's worth, because this does not take into account all the various active and passive abilities and other stat bonuses on the items that are also included in the price.

But for demonstration purposes, lets assume I have 200 AD and 1 AS. I deal 200 DPS before resistances. Now, if I have 400 AD and .5 AS, I also do 200 DPS.

So far so good.

As is shown, AD and AS are multiplicatively linked. Their product is the DPS.

Not factoring in crit, but basically yes.

In the second situation, gaining an additional 75 AD from an item such as Bloodthirster gives me only an additional 37.5 DPS, where as in the second case it gives me 75 DPS. This is because of diminishing returns. So, after buying a bunch of attack speed, to get my 1 AS, the relative efficiency of the AD item increases when compared to my DPS in the .5 case.

No, diminishing returns means that the more you invest the less you get back over time. In the example above if you keep buying Bloodthirsters, each will increase your DPS with the same amount, no diminishing returns. What you are saying here is complete nonsense, if any meaning were to be pressed out of it, it would boil down to stating the simplified dps formula you gave earlier.

Because I previously bought AS, the AD was more efficient than if I had previously bought a bunch of AD items. However, for burst purposes AD is more valuable hence why it's run on bruisers despite being inefficient.

The order you buy stuff is not very relevant in terms of simply calculating the dps. What you said works in the exact reverse order too: If you buy AD fist then get AS then that AS will amount to more dps than if you didn't buy AD in the first place. Again, pure nonsense.

So, if you can imagine, let's say that from the base stats of most Marksmen, AS is more efficient as a first item than an AD item such as lethality (this is why they changed it a while back, because lethality AD was more efficient) buying a bunch of really cheap AS increases the efficiency of a later AD purchase. I'm getting far more bang for my buck when I do finally buy my Bork, IE, ER, or BT. As a result, the value of AD items in ADC builds is irrelevant because AS can be stacked and remain efficient enough in the mid game (because it's so cheap) then still scale into late game because AD items are so efficient after stacking AS.

You are pretty much just repeating yourself at this point. You can calulate stat for stat which item will yield more dps at which stage of the game, but your simplistic approach above is just saying words.

Crit, which increases DPS by (1+ .01*crt chance)*current DPS, inly compounds this issue. Stacking AS isn't punished by more smooth scaling builds because the AS is so cheap, the game is over before the proper build can scale.

No, crit doesn't compund the issue. I have to make a correction to my dps formula in my previous post: dps = AD × AS + AD × AS × CRIT * C. Sorry about the mistake. But even in here, there is just one extra term which scales linearly with crit.

The solution is to normalize the values of crit AD, and AS items such that it is reasonable to build them in a distributed manner, and make stacking unreasonable due to the lack of impact it is able to have. Shrinking the window where stacking AS is better than a scaling build.

There is no need for a solution, because you failed to establish a problem.

Azeranth1 votes

If you buy AD fist then get AS then that AS will amount to more dps than if you didn't buy AD in the first place. Again, pure nonsense.

Ah yes, you can get the same late game boons regardless of the order in which they're built. Correct. Here's the catch. I can get my RFC faster than my IE. RFC frontloads my power, like an assassin, but because of how DPS works, I suffer no penalties to my effectiveness in late game. Because AS requires synergy to be as effective, there is a window of time where I am less effective than someone with equal gold who has purchased the same gold's worth of stats split between an AS and a commensurate amount of AD. A very small window, which is erased the moment I buy an AD item, like Deaths Dance.

However, leading up to that narrow window, I've front loaded a heavy advantage in raw stats because I'm not relying on scaling quite yet. I'm still winning the linear arms race. I will eventually turn exponential, and scale form late game, but the period of time where the risky drawback of frontloads my effectiveness occurs is far to small. Simply because the resources needed to invest in double attack speed first are so low that no major punishment can be made. It's high reward for midgame power, no trade off to late game power, and only a very tiny window of vulnerability to be punished in. This window must be expanded for midgame

zoliking1 votes

{quoted}

Ah yes, you can get the same late game boons regardless of the order in which they're built. Correct. Here's the catch. I can get my RFC faster than my IE. RFC frontloads my power, like an assassin, but because of how DPS works, I suffer no penalties to my effectiveness in late game. Because AS requires synergy to be as effective, there is a window of time where I am less effective than someone with equal gold who has purchased the same gold's worth of stats split between an AS and a commensurate amount of AD. A very small window, which is erased the moment I buy an AD item, like Deaths Dance.

However, leading up to that narrow window, I've front loaded a heavy advantage in raw stats because I'm not relying on scaling quite yet. I'm still winning the linear arms race. I will eventually turn exponential, and scale form late game, but the period of time where the risky drawback of frontloads my effectiveness occurs is far to small. Simply because the resources needed to invest in double attack speed first are so low that no major punishment can be made. It's high reward for midgame power, no trade off to late game power, and only a very tiny window of vulnerability to be punished in. This window must be expanded for midgame

You do realize that in the early game overall dps doesn't even matter, right? You're in lane, trading, usually 1 shot at a time. If you build AS instad of AD, you will lose every trade and eventually the lane itself.

You have gotten this vague idea about AS being cheaper and therefore more powerful into your head and try to draw conclusions from it about the overall balance of the game. That without calculating the actual cost/value analysis of any specific items, without looking at specific gameplay situations. You demonstrated that you don't understand the basic math necessary to even do that math. Please stop. But if you want to keep pushing your point then start doing the math: go through the different builds and calculate cost vs dps gains.

Azeranth2 votes

Jesus dude, are you having selective illiteracy about the word "mid game" as in shortly after leaving lanes and begining to make rotation plays and skirmishes across the map?

DPS is extremely relevant in fights over objectives like dragon, first tower, and rift, as well as skirmishes from defending invades or in setting up a dive.

If I can get my hands on two complete items, Zeal items, I'm so much more potent in those fights because I have two items, it doesn't matter how comparatively weak stat stacking makes me, because the resources invested are so insanely low. It allows me to take over the game instantly.

zoliking1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus dude, are you having selective illiteracy about the word "mid game" as in shortly after leaving lanes and begining to make rotation plays and skirmishes across the map?

DPS is extremely relevant in fights over objectives like dragon, first tower, and rift, as well as skirmishes from defending invades or in setting up a dive.

If I can get my hands on two complete items, Zeal items, I'm so much more potent in those fights because I have two items, it doesn't matter how comparatively weak stat stacking makes me, because the resources invested are so insanely low. It allows me to take over the game instantly.

Azeranth, honeypoodle, sugarkitten, sweetiepie, you started the thread with the contention that "some people don't know math", but you'll show everybody. You are yet to present a single calculation with any actualy values. Stop wasting words and show us the numbers.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus dude, are you having selective illiteracy about the word "mid game" as in shortly after leaving lanes and begining to make rotation plays and skirmishes across the map?

DPS is extremely relevant in fights over objectives like dragon, first tower, and rift, as well as skirmishes from defending invades or in setting up a dive.

If I can get my hands on two complete items, Zeal items, I'm so much more potent in those fights because I have two items, it doesn't matter how comparatively weak stat stacking makes me, because the resources invested are so insanely low. It allows me to take over the game instantly.

It's called a troll. Explain how he is wrong and if he keeps coming, ignore. No point wasting too much energy.

zoliking1 votes

{quoted}

It's called a troll. Explain how he is wrong and if he keeps coming, ignore. No point wasting too much energy.

Are you suggesting that I am the troll in this thread?

Let's examine the history of what happened here for a bit: Azeranth opened with these two lines:

Apparently, some people can't do math

So I'll help you understand this.

He then followed up with:

So, here is a fun concept, the more attack speed and crit you have, the more efficient AD is, BUT unlike in health and resistance, the efficiency increase is itself exponentially growing because AS and Crit synergize as well.

Tanks benefit from resist health synergy and scale quadratically, but they have numerous handicaps like uneven proportionality, spike dependence, and low damage.

1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512

ADCs get Cubic scaling, because they have three stats working in their favor, all multiplicative, and those stats are hand fed to braindead ADCs who never need to consider build path because of perfect proportions. That looks like this

1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683

Also, yes they're both exponential. I did misspeak and I'm to lazy to go back and correct it. The difference is that one is quadratic and one is cubic.

In the second situation, gaining an additional 75 AD from an item such as Bloodthirster gives me only an additional 37.5 DPS, where as in the second case it gives me 75 DPS. This is because of diminishing returns.

But what he didn't do is put his math where his mouth was and actually dish out calculations with actual numbers. All I did was point out the arrogance of the initial statements and the woeful obviousness of this guy's mathematical ineptitude that is in such sharp contrast with those. That's not trolling, that's having a barely less than friendly conversation.

Now, if I said that "you are a judgmental moron who couldn't tell a troll apart from their mother, quit the internet forever", that would have been a troll comment. But apparently you can't tell that level of enmity apart from a disagreement.

zoliking1 votes

{quoted} So, here is a fun concept, the more attack speed and crit you have, the more efficient AD is, BUT unlike in health and resistance, the efficiency increase is itself exponentially growing because AS and Crit synergize as well.

Your overall dps is damage × attack speed × crit × a constant. (In most cases, obviously there are champions with variations on how as or crit work) No exponents there, it scales linearly with each component. The challenge in balancing an adc build is to look at the game state as you build and decide to go for a more sustainy (life steal, damage reduction from PD) route or an agressive armor piercing route and how much wave clear you want to add with Shiv and/or Ruunan's Hurricane.

The armor and mr damage modifiers scale hyperbolically with armor and mr, so stacking these stats gives you diminishing returns. So ideally you want to reach a relatively high value with as few items as possible but not invest overly in either, focusing on health and other stats. The challange in balancing a tank build is in choosing the items so that your armor/mr ratio is good enough to match the damage output of the other team and to achieve this with items that give the best other effects in the given comp.

Saying that adcs have an easier job itemizing because their damage is the function of more stats than damage resistance is, is nonsensical to use a polite understatement.

BTW, Mr. The One Who Knows Them Mathematics, the "quadratic" and "cubic" series you gave are both exponential. If you don't know middle school level functions you might want to refrain from implying that your knowledge supercedes and overshadows the collective mathematical understanding of a complete group of people who do this shit for a living.

For a cheap price I'm willing to provide tutoring in this area of mathematics at this level if you want to avoid making a fool of yourself in the future.

Azeranth1 votes

The way in which the diminishing returns is acheived is such that it is bound in efficiency by health. It's a concept called "effective helath"

AS let's you deal your AD worth of damage more times per second, an increase in either will create an increase in overall DPS. However, these also experience diminishing returns. 1 AS with 50 AD is equal DPS to 100 AS .5 AD. So it's about obtaining balance. It also means that the more AD you have the, more efficient buying AS becomes, because it's a multiplier, not a sum component. Crit is yet another multiplier. Because there are 3 multiplicative factors at play, ADC can scale more. It's why they can carry. It's not magic, it's math.

The issue is that the gold price points for ADC items are too low in the crit department, which means that the relative cost of AD is irrelevant, because the ability to buy a ton of crit negates the cost of AS because of Synergistic efficiency. If you don't believe me, go read the documentation from Riot themselves about efficiency, independent efficiency, stat synergy, diminishing returns, gold values, and effective DPS/Health. Go, go on. Read it.

Azeranth1 votes

Also, yes they're both exponential. I did misspeak and I'm to lazy to go back and correct it. The difference is that one is quadratic and one is cubic. The relative efficiency bonus of each successive stat bonus is such that there are several multiplying factors. The result is a magnitudes greater impact and magnitudes greater efficiency cost.

But what your missing is WHEN the efficiency becomes relevant and I did not do enough to make this clear. If I stack AS early, because it's cheap I become effective in a fight sooner. Then, I can buy an AD item later in the game and the power spike I obtain there will be so efficient that I will never be punished for attempting to stack AS. The window off effective DPS between someone who smooths their growth curve by building a variety of damage sources and someone who doesn't is only relevant after breaking even for such a short window of time, that in most cases the ADC who built AS takes over the game and gets ahead far too significantly. The risk involved is so miniscule, because so few resources must be invested in stacking AS.

It's a high reward, low risk situation. No wonder it is abused. Because it takes no trade offs late game and the power spike windows are so narrow that there is little to no opportunity to punish the unbalanced build path because of low costs. The costs should go up, so the windows are greater, and more planning, skill, and itemization can have a greater impact than farming till 20 and stacking AS

zoliking1 votes

{quoted}

Also, yes they're both exponential. I did misspeak and I'm to lazy to go back and correct it. The difference is that one is quadratic and one is cubic. The relative efficiency bonus of each successive stat bonus is such that there are several multiplying factors. The result is a magnitudes greater impact and magnitudes greater efficiency cost.

No, they are not cubic and quadratic. They are base 2 and 3. And no, for the hundred millionth time, dps scaling is linear with all its components.

But what your missing is WHEN the efficiency becomes relevant and I did not do enough to make this clear. If I stack AS early, because it's cheap I become effective in a fight sooner. Then, I can buy an AD item later in the game and the power spike I obtain there will be so efficient that I will never be punished for attempting to stack AS. The window off effective DPS between someone who smooths their growth curve by building a variety of damage sources and someone who doesn't is only relevant after breaking even for such a short window of time, that in most cases the ADC who built AS takes over the game and gets ahead far too significantly. The risk involved is so miniscule, because so few resources must be invested in stacking AS.

You do realize that the values on the items are relatively balanced, right? A cheaper item will generally provide less stats. It's not like you can buy an item for 1000g that gives you +30% dps and another that gives the same for 5000g. You do realize that there are actual values on these items, not just "+some % as".

It's a high reward, low risk situation. No wonder it is abused. Because it takes no trade offs late game and the power spike windows are so narrow that there is little to no opportunity to punish the unbalanced build path because of low costs. The costs should go up, so the windows are greater, and more planning, skill, and itemization can have a greater impact than farming till 20 and stacking AS

Look, the build path you say may be somewhat imbalanced, maybe it's not. But all the rambling nonsense you blathered here does not constitute any kind of support for that claim. Not once have you put forward any actual calculation with any specific item values.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

{quoted}

Your overall dps is damage × attack speed × crit × a constant. (In most cases, obviously there are champions with variations on how as or crit work) No exponents there, it scales linearly with each component. The challenge in balancing an adc build is to look at the game state as you build and decide to go for a more sustainy (life steal, damage reduction from PD) route or an agressive armor piercing route and how much wave clear you want to add with Shiv and/or Ruunan's Hurricane.

The armor and mr damage modifiers scale hyperbolically with armor and mr, so stacking these stats gives you diminishing returns. So ideally you want to reach a relatively high value with as few items as possible but not invest overly in either, focusing on health and other stats. The challange in balancing a tank build is in choosing the items so that your armor/mr ratio is good enough to match the damage output of the other team and to achieve this with items that give the best other effects in the given comp.

Saying that adcs have an easier job itemizing because their damage is the function of more stats than damage resistance is, is nonsensical to use a polite understatement.

BTW, Mr. The One Who Knows Them Mathematics, the "quadratic" and "cubic" series you gave are both exponential. If you don't know middle school level functions you might want to refrain from implying that your knowledge supercedes and overshadows the collective mathematical understanding of a complete group of people who do this shit for a living.

For a cheap price I'm willing to provide tutoring in this area of mathematics at this level if you want to avoid making a fool of yourself in the future.

God fucking damnit, stacking resistances DOES NOT (DOES FUCKING NOT) GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS.
https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/6hhh0o/reminder_resistance_dont_have_diminishing_returns/
TL;DR: Going from 50% damage reduction to 75% is the same as going from 0% to 50%.
It DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
STOP WRITING THAT.
Every 1 armor is 1% more effective hp vs physical.
Period.
It DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
YES, after a point, getting HP is more gold efficient that getting more resistances, BUT the stacking of resistances DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
Lets repeat together one last time!
IF FUCKING DOES NOT.

zoliking2 votes

{quoted}

God fucking damnit, stacking resistances DOES NOT (DOES FUCKING NOT) GIVE DIMINISHING RETURNS.
https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/6hhh0o/reminder_resistance_dont_have_diminishing_returns/
TL;DR: Going from 50% damage reduction to 75% is the same as going from 0% to 50%.
It DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
STOP WRITING THAT.
Every 1 armor is 1% more effective hp vs physical.
Period.
It DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
YES, after a point, getting HP is more gold efficient that getting more resistances, BUT the stacking of resistances DOES NOT have diminishing returns.
Lets repeat together one last time!
IF FUCKING DOES NOT.

Damage reduction is 1-100/(100+armor). To get to 50% reduction you need to buy 100 armor. To get to 75% you need 300 armor. So if by your own admission 50% and 75% count as the same increment, the second step requires double the investment. If you buy the same amount of armor, another hundred, it gets you to 66.7%. Come on, math before you type.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

{quoted}

Damage reduction is 1-100/(100+armor). To get to 50% reduction you need to buy 100 armor. To get to 75% you need 300 armor. So if by your own admission 50% and 75% count as the same increment, the second step requires double the investment. If you buy the same amount of armor, another hundred, it gets you to 66.7%. Come on, math before you type.

You probably should read the link before trying to sound smart ^^ You're basically trying to prove the Earth is flat there.
Just to make sure:
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4U1k2cFJ-psa-armor-and-mr-dont-give-diminishing-returns
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/954437-league-of-legends/68064247?page=1
https://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/liMplqNv-diminishing-returns-in-armor-and-magic-resistance-dont-exist?show=nested
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2783586
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EE5JYxAm-psa-armor-and-mr-do-not-have-diminishing-returns
I don't know what more I can do for you, but I can guarantee you that if you actually read (only one link would be enough, but read more in case of advanced density), you'll stop bathing in blissfull ignorance and realize you too can stop the bullshit spreading habit of the masses! Plus it's free!

zoliking1 votes

{quoted}

You probably should read the link before trying to sound smart ^^ You're basically trying to prove the Earth is flat there.
Just to make sure:
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4U1k2cFJ-psa-armor-and-mr-dont-give-diminishing-returns
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/954437-league-of-legends/68064247?page=1
https://boards.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-en/liMplqNv-diminishing-returns-in-armor-and-magic-resistance-dont-exist?show=nested
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2783586
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EE5JYxAm-psa-armor-and-mr-do-not-have-diminishing-returns
I don't know what more I can do for you, but I can guarantee you that if you actually read (only one link would be enough, but read more in case of advanced density), you'll stop bathing in blissfull ignorance and realize you too can stop the bullshit spreading habit of the masses! Plus it's free!

When people say armor gives diminishing returns they mean in terms of damage reduction. Saying it doesn't give diminishing returns of another metric does not counter that statement, it's just making an unrelated statement. Now, if you want to argue that the number of hits it takes to kill a champion is a more relevant consideration than simply the value of damage reduction, I'm with you, but getting angry over people talking about something you consider less important seems a little silly.

zoliking1 votes

Having thought about it I realize that you were right about having 3 factors making a value scale better if each can be individually increased as opposed to just two. My mistake.

But in practice this effect is very limited with DPS, because both AS and CRIT are bound and only AD can be improved indefinitely (or as much as the 6 item limit allows). Plus CRIT only affects the second term of the formula. So even given the truth of your basic premise the idea that there are 3 ways to improve DPS, with these limitation it still doesn't follow that adcs can just straight up outscale any other class by design.

Azeranth1 votes

Naturally, but ocercapping AS isn't terribly common in a healthy late game build, and the issue isn't about how high it can eventually get, it's about how efficient it is to stack AS due to low cost point, as opposed to maintaining the steady curve of a build that builds AS, AD, and Crit items in balance with each other. ADCs sacrifice early AD for AS and Crit because the stat is so much more attainable, and this is not made up for by the expensive AD items because of how efficient the stack AS and Crit make the AD items.

SpiritOfOdysseus1 votes

It doesn't matter if youre correct or not just as it hasn't mattered at ANY point since League has gotten "big", Riot doesn't listen to US because they "know" we must be all unintelligent high-school dropouts that will play the game whether they make every champ launch ICBMs or not. They state that they have the statistics, yet we have the experiences in the thousands- yet they change redundant things like it's supposed to change anything.

But riot isn't the only one to blame here because they are partially right. On the forums, nobody is responsible for anything besides being anonymous. Ontop of it all because there is a GREAT chance that most of us aren't very educated that means that those who aren't are more likely to agree with other "not-very-educated". People will always agree with what they understand while disagreeing with what they don't(which is why you see a lot of upvotes on those irrelevant meme topics, humor is the only thing that isn't tied to someones education or intelligence).

It's simple sociology really, it's far easier to disagree with something you cannot wrap your brain across and proceed to write some witty comeback on how a grammatical mistake nullifies an entire topic/suggestion/argument while farming upvotes which further creates a false sense of "oh yeah I sure showed this knowitall! more x/y/z people agree with me so that means my word is god!"

SpiritOfOdysseus1 votes

It doesn't matter if youre correct or not just as it hasn't mattered at ANY point since League has gotten "big", Riot doesn't listen to US because they "know" we must be all unintelligent high-school dropouts that will play the game whether they make every champ launch ICBMs or not. They state that they have the statistics, yet we have the experiences in the thousands- yet they change redundant things like it's supposed to change anything.

But riot isn't the only one to blame here because they are partially right. On the forums, nobody is responsible for anything besides being anonymous. Ontop of it all because there is a GREAT chance that most of us aren't very educated that means that those who aren't are more likely to agree with other "not-very-educated". People will always agree with what they understand while disagreeing with what they don't(which is why you see a lot of upvotes on those irrelevant meme topics, humor is the only thing that isn't tied to someones education or intelligence).

It's simple sociology really, it's far easier to disagree with something you cannot wrap your brain across and proceed to write some witty comeback on how a grammatical mistake nullifies an entire topic/suggestion/argument while farming upvotes which further creates a false sense of "oh yeah I sure showed this knowitall! more x/y/z people agree with me so that means my word is god!"

Azeranth1 votes

It does matter. It matters a whole lot. Because talking, and showing mature and intelligent discourse is how we improve the community.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

Another post ignoring how helpless adc are vs every other class due to their kits and low hp.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

There's a reason talon 1 shotting a marksman doesn't make it on a montage but a marksman 1v1ing another class on even gold does, its hard af.

Azeranth1 votes

It's supposed to be.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

It's supposed to be.

It is if anyone thinks marksmen can 1v1 tanks or assasains they don't play marksmen.

Azeranth1 votes

1v1ing as a marksmen is supposed to be tough. You should auto lose any fights like that unless you significantly outplay them.

Lauchmelder1 votes

"ADCs are weak in a 1v1"

I will counterpick the argument of "supports won't leave their ADC most of the times, thus a 1v1 is VERY unlikely to happen"

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vLJgaNzP,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2018-01-16T11:46:53.738+0000)

"ADCs are weak in a 1v1"

I will counterpick the argument of "supports won't leave their ADC most of the times, thus a 1v1 is VERY unlikely to happen"

A lot of champs can kill the adc 1v2 pretty easily if not behind and if anything this means shield supports are the problem because theyre too good at protecting people

xShiNjiNx1 votes

Then why are they played mid and top time to time?

Spank the Fox1 votes

Because they’re so bad bot they migrated mid as counterpicks (Lucian only existed to shit on Orianna and Kass) and Vayne top is a meme.

They’ve been niche at best.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

Then why are they played mid and top time to time?

The only adc viable in other lanes was Lucian bc of his high mobility and the fact black cleaver was good on him. Vayne top is only good if ur way better than other toplaner and their jg is afk

xShiNjiNx1 votes

Graves top was a thing, quin, vayne, lucian, kalista have all seen top. Coki, kalista, lucian, kog, tristana, varus, ezreal have been played mid. And we even have cases like twitch, ezreal in the jungle.

Regardless of how common it was is or what ever, its often enough that it defeats the argument that they are too low hp to deal with other classes alone..

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

Graves top was a thing, quin, vayne, lucian, kalista have all seen top. Coki, kalista, lucian, kog, tristana, varus, ezreal have been played mid. And we even have cases like twitch, ezreal in the jungle.

Regardless of how common it was is or what ever, its often enough that it defeats the argument that they are too low hp to deal with other classes alone..

Kalista is never viable solo she gets most of her stats from a sup, ez and varus are casters, twitch jg is super easy to invade and kill, corki is a caster not a true marksman, Quinn is an assasain not a true marksman, vayne top sucks, lucain was good top bc he used op items well

Azeranth1 votes

Wow, it's almost like their central balancing factors are high vulnerability and a lack or relevancy without multiple items

Anags1 votes

Lol, what?

You need to go watch some streamers playing Kog, Trist, Xayah, and Vayne. They are far from helpless especially after 3 items.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Apparently you can't do math either - because you're missing a lot.

Adcs aren't cubic, but quartic, if you also consider armour pen. However you won't often see an adc take all 4 stats. Auto attacks don't scale with cdr, and abilities don't generally scale with attack speed or crit, so no point dealing with that here, but...

AP champs aren't linear. They're not just ap. There's also magic pen, and cdr. That's cubic (effectively matching what adcs can build) at a glance, but there's a catch: CDR scales with itself. I'll try to make this easy with an example, redefining CDR to spells per time. If you buy 10% as how many more attacks per time do you get? 10%. Buy another 10%? Get another 10%. Buy up to 40%? Get 40%. If you buy 10% how many more spells can you cast per time? Did you say 10%? Wrong. It's 11.11%, or 1/0.9 - 1. If you buy another 10%, how much more did you get? 11.11%? Wrong. You get 13.89%, or 1/0.8 - 1/0.9. If you buy another 20% cdr, you get another 41.67% spells per time (as opposed to 20% AS). That's why the cdr cap is there. So effectively, AP champs scale more than cubicly (but not quite quartic, which there isn't room for adcs to build anyways).

Now tanks: First, randuins has crit reduction. That's an extra stat. You can stack it too. Randuins (and thornmail and frozen heart) also has AS-slow. That's an extra stat. They also benefit from CDR (their abilities contribute to survivability, time enemy is cc'd they're not attacking and doing damage). So on top of armour and health, that's 3 more stats. That's quintic scaling by your argument. Again of course, it's impractical to fit all of that in to 1 build efficiently, not to mention that these things don't actually scale with eachother all perfectly (cdr being the odd one out, unlike for ap champions who do get all of their damage from abilities and it's much more similar to attack speed there).

Using your own arguments and including the stats available, tanks scale the hardest, then adcs closely followed by ap champions.

Bruisers and ad assassins combine penetration, ad, and cdr similarly. They benefit less from cdr than ap champions though (since their basic attacks actually do noticeable damage). So they're at the bottom, although not by nearly as much as you imply.

And all of this ignores some important things: That burst > sustained dps if sufficiently high, who cares if you deal 10x my dps if i can kill you before you do anything? That champion kits all differ and are generally balanced with their build style in mind. That auto attack scaling being used optimally (stand still and keep auto'ing) is really unlikely, you'll likely need to kite, cutting your efficiency.

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