When will Conqueror Officially Be A Failure?

Azeranth·4/17/2019, 7:08:45 PM·76 votes·16,611 views

What will it take for Conqueror to be officially a failure? When will Riot finally admit that they have no idea what bruisers do, and how they work? When will Riot acknowledge how they have actually ruined toplane, and made every other lane suffer as a result?

"Toplane feels weak right now"

Wrong. Toplane isn't weak, toplane is busted. The reason toplane feels weak, is because most toplane matchups are so painfully one sided and snowbally, that it FEELS like you can't do anything 50% of games, because getting behind at all, is just true suffering. MOSTLY because every toplaner that isn't a tank, is just broken, all of them, broken champions.

I come from a toplane era where SoloRenektonOnly taught wave control, and how to properly coordinate with your jungler to deny the enemy resources and objectives. I come from a toplane era, where you'd look for TP ganks not because the two assists were GG, but because forcing your laner to follow you would deny them so much experience and completely mess up their back timings. I come from a toplane era, where your champion could win 1v1 OR contribute to the teamfight late game. I come from an era of toplane, where roaming with your jungler was how champions with lane presence actaully made a difference and effected the rest of the game. I come from an era of toplane where stealing the enemy red buff was something you looked for non-stop. I come from an era of toplane where the most volatile matchup you could imagine was Darius into Renekton, and who ever lost would be not a champion all game.

And I want my era of toplane back.

I don't want to play as or against Urgot, who will win every fight on the wave, and has ridiculous all in potential with defensive and offensive steroids on no cooldown with a free lane push for 0 mana. Who will eventually just one shot my team and provide massive AoE CC in the mid game. Thats not fun.

I don't want to play as or against Irelia, who will have 2.7K Health, one shot everything she touches, heals for an obscene amount by spam Qing the wave, and has the such a clear defined strength for fighting on the wave, but literally no issue with just getting shoved in under tower and CSing perfectly with Q and her attack speed passive, knowing she'll be relevant with her massive teamfight presence later in the game.

I don't want to play as or against Darius, who no longer chooses between Stack health or Stack AD, and instead always chooses Stack Health, because hes been given so many buffs to try and keep him relevant alongside these other ridiculous champions that his damage doesn't actaully come from his items or a relevant lead, and the champion is 100% completely entirely focused without a doubt on short brusty trades that eventually become one shots from this monster of a man with 2.6K Health and 120 Armor.

Its actually such cancer what Riot has done to the toplane, and I want it back. I want actual toplane back. I want the Yorrick Darius matchup to be about whether or not Darius can force the all in off the wave during the split push. I don't want both side of the matchup to be about landing one ability and all inning trying to see who can burst down who. I want to care about timings, about wave conditions, about jungle pathing, about my rotations, about when and how I trade. Right now toplane is all SMOrc all the time, and its just not fun, even when you're winning. When I play Conqeuror Yorrick ,and am taking the inhib solo at 24 minutes, and they send someone to stop me, I don't want to just flash E Q them for 90% of their health because I have a triforce, which essentially reads "Every 1.5 seconds, your next auto attack has an infinity edge Crit" its actually so fucking busted, and it encourage such a degenerate playstyle from so many champions. Its not cool, its not clever, its not some big brain 10,000 IQ tool to really optimize your trading patterns, its just cancer.

I want to feel like my choices in items really make all the difference between how much durability and damage I have, I don't want it all to come from my base values, like seems to be Riots latest and greatest obsession. I don't want the most valuable place for me to get more damage to be from CDR, which is disgustingly cheap and overtuned with the way Riot assigns base numbers, especially when nearly every toplane champion has some form of stat steroid and CC, making CDR literally the single most efficient stat for everything any champion in toplane could ever want to do ever.

Actaully Riot, stop fucking around making these small changes like "Oh we're going to just tweak some things here and there" No. Admit how badly you fucked toplane. Admit you're actually ruining the game through toplane. Admit that you've turned every interaction into who can one shot who, and in order to compensate, you've given every relevant assassin the ability to one shot people WITHOUT ANY SETUP FROM THEIR TEAM AT ALL.

Its pretty simple how to fix it.

1.) Remove Conqueror. It was badly executed before, now its just unworkable. You can't give so many free stats to a class of champions that already have so many free stats and then pretend like you don't understand how everyone of those champions has had a complete erasure of playstyle variance over the duration of a game. 2.) Stop listening to people like Hash. He's a fucking idiot, who doesn't know anything except that he wants to fight the enemy laner. He doesn't want to actaully play league or think, he just wants to beat his dick on the Keyboard and get a victory screen. Theres 9 other people in the game, and if people like Hash want some happy funtime all by themselves, they can go masturbate instead. 3.) Retune CDR, its so underpriced. Its so disgustingly cheap and efficient for every role, that midlane and toplane meta lives in such an unengaging stranglehold as a result of it. 4.) Stop making champions who are good in lane and out of it. You have to pick one. If your champion is designed to fight early, and to 1v9 the game, thats not okay. Not every champion can be old Graves. If yu want to play a 1v9 champion, you should have to suffer like Kassadin for 20 minutes before you are allowed to make the game entirely about you meeting some minimal skill floor, not about being better than your opponent. 5.) Fix champions like Riven and Yasuo, which aren't about being better than your opponent, but whether or not you can properly execute your combo when the time comes. They're not about being better than the enemy in 90/100 engagements with the enemy, they're about whether or not the player meets some minimal skill floor for performance.

Also, if you want ideas for a REAL bruiser Rune here are a few ideas:

  • Old Irelia Passive, gain defenses or increase healing or increased movement speed when you are outnumbered.

  • Dealing damage with a spell or empowered attack applies stacks to the target. Basic Attacking this target consumes the stacks, healing for a flat amount. Or dealing bonus damage for a flat amount.

  • When in combat with enemy champions, gain stacks of determination, you gain slow resistance and tenacity for each stack of determination up to a cap.

  • Just remove the True damage portion of Conqueror, and change tanks (and other bruisers) to be more item reliant in their resistances and health items. Make the healing off damage to champions be premitigation, and not apply to minions. That actually could salvage conqueror even though I said I think its unworkable.

  • Just run another rune like Phase Rush, Grasp, Electrocute, or Press which are almost identical to all the runs Bruisers used to run before runes reforged.

71 Comments

Sushidiamond4/18/2019, 4:47:34 AM10 votes

Biggest problem with top is the moment your opponent takes anything ranged or a mage you suddenly have the worst Laning experience of your life.

jg díff victim4/17/2019, 9:13:27 PM9 votes

[deleted]

Glaricion4/17/2019, 11:53:31 PM6 votes

I agree w/ most of your post, but I don't really see how Rito Videogame is listening to Hash. New conqueror is still there. Jax, Jayce, Kennen, and Riven are still very strong. Kled isn't seeing buffs, no clue if they are stopping Aatrox E rework.

Out of curiosity, does Hash still believe that Hecarim is fine? Irritated that Rito took away all my other ban choices.

TimeToDieSuckers4/18/2019, 12:18:32 AM5 votes

I mean riot has dumped on top lane so hard its literally the least played role in the game now. If they didn't care before when the role was popular why would they care now? (2nd most powerful role less popular then support, but everything is perfectly fine!)

ChiefDovahkin4/18/2019, 1:03:10 AM5 votes

Some of your points stand, but most are just skill dependent complaints. You criticize the way top lane is played as if we still don't value wave management and engaging off the wave or coordinating with the jungler. Most of the champs you cite are pretty lane strong, but Irelia, Darius, and Yorick aren't that great late game. It's the honest truth. Just because you've seen them 1v5 doesn't mean they have strong game winning/closing potential. In fact, I would say Yorick is the only one of these 3 that is actually effective late game. Adc scaling really hampers them all. We clearly share different opinions though because since I've started watching Hash, he's really just reiterated the issues I've seen with the game for a couple seasons. I actually think his opinions on balance are pretty solid most the time. He does have a knack for pointing out the real issues with kits that Riot doesn't quite pinpoint.

TheGreatNinx4/17/2019, 11:52:36 PM4 votes

tbh they can't remove conquer till they come up with more suitable ruens for bruisers other wise you will just get more vlads and other range match ups in top lane since they weren't performing very with the other keystones.

MysticShaker4/18/2019, 12:44:54 AM3 votes

Officially? Never. They haven't officialy admited their fails such as PAX2018 for example. They dont officialy admit any fails since season 4. They might fiy conqueror but it will happen probably in midseason as with other broken stuffs (feral flare, ec nerfs etc)

JhinuinelyDunk4/18/2019, 11:42:54 AM3 votes

Damn u really are delusional and possibly mentally challenged. Unfortunate u know they only added conq cuz tanks were broken negative iq auto win lane and better late game right? Ur actually so cringe and makes me sad that people like you even exist really unfortunate:3

Mr Bob Boberson4/18/2019, 12:34:46 PM3 votes

Conqueror was pretty much the only way bruisers could even compete with Tanks top lane, Now it's just a rune that's decent on a few champs and broken on even fewer

Hashinshin actually does know what he's talking aobut sometimes, He's been a diamond-challenger tier player for a long time, Sure sometimes he gets angry and spews things that don't make sense but also a lot of what he says are actually good suggestions

The champions you described are hyper carries, They're not a bad thing, Yes they're annoying to fight but they're needed for some seemingly unwinnable games to actually become winnable

Riven is an issue but Yasuo doesn't even go top lane often, He gets screwed over by most champs top lane Still think he could use some work tho

You aren't wrong about Top lane being a mess but the things you listed make it seem like you have no idea what you're talking about But your suggestions for a new rune aren't bad at all

AS I LAY FEEDING4/18/2019, 4:16:55 AM3 votes

There is only 2 problamtic champs that uses conq Riven Hecarim . Jax inst problematic at all you can actually destroy his early game with certain champs. Its lame that they dont take any actions on the rune and especially champs like riven. If you ask me so is the precison tree just broken.

Velasan4/18/2019, 12:44:00 AM3 votes

I really don't know that much about top lane, but I feel you on missing the layers of the game that provided more strategy.

I was hoping season 9 was going to be the season of fixing all the (shall we say) less than fun aspects of the game including contesting scuttles, how elemental drakes can swing a game, snowballing, turret plate gold etc.

Gave up on that now that we are four months in and not seeing any type of reversion of those tactics. It's like they wanted the whole game to be Skarner spires. You have a multitude of tiny things to keep track of and they all screw over your game when they go wrong, along with your teammates. The gold on turret plating was super unneeded, you can have to back for a lot of reasons including getting camped by the enemy jungler. Now they get free gold on top of forcing you out of lane. It just cements a winning lane even more towards a quick and easy win. No one likes contesting scuttles either, they take you away from your jg routes, and most people don't fight over scuttle you just run out and smite steal it or smack it with an ability.

Also, even though it's rarely talked about, scuttles provide way too much sustain in the jungle. Used to be that healthy clears mattered. Now there is a ton of sustain everywhere.

Z3Sleeper4/18/2019, 10:21:41 AM2 votes

"Stop listening to people like Hash". Besides the counter-strike bugfix, they have never listened to Hash.

If they did then Jayce/Kennen/Kayle/Neeko/Riven wouldn't be the absolutely oppressive top lane monsters that they currently are.

Also do you know how many of those use Conqueror? Just Riven? Yeah.

I agree that current Conqueror isn't a good final solution, but it's better than the last and better than having nothing like we did before that. But there are much bigger issues that exist that need to be addressed before we nerf all the bruisers that aren't overperforming with Conqueror.

ShadWooo4/18/2019, 1:02:59 AM2 votes

Absolutely agree. However I feel like we are in vicious circle and it all began with runes reforged and the trend to give free stats... Lets not pretend that fixing conqueror will solve much...

Support Position4/18/2019, 11:48:28 AM2 votes

whenever reforged is a failure and they bring back old Runes/Masteries. Yea right. Never. Sigh. [sona-playing]

Mannny4/18/2019, 12:17:13 PM2 votes

Wave control and denying resources is still important and more than it ever was because gaining leads in the top lane in any way shape or form translates to you winning the lane. The champions you claim to be not fun are actually easy to deal with, Darius isn't difficult to fight against. I agree that conquerer is a failure but top lane macro and wave management hasn't gone anywhere. If you lose a matchup stop blaming the matchup and blame yourself, 90% of the time it's a mistake you made in lane.

RavenMagus4/19/2019, 12:15:09 AM2 votes

I don't want both side of the matchup to be about landing one ability and all inning trying to see who can burst down who.

I feel like this is not top lane but rather every single lane now, and has been since last season.

Critmaster Garen4/18/2019, 11:52:06 PM1 votes

{quoted}

I don't want to play as or against Darius, who no longer chooses between Stack health or Stack AD, and instead always chooses Stack Health

the entire point of the champion is that he doesnt have to chose.

juggernauts are melee carries who scale off building large amounts of health. this has literally been a thing since season 5, while the concept is even older and not since conqueror. if darius currently works off stacking as much health as possible, then hes working as intended.

why do you think the heal on his q scales with % missing health, and his 5 stack bonus gives him such a massive amount of ad?

the reason why fights feel so short and bursty is mainly because defensive stats overall dont feel statisfying enough at the moment and these same champions actually dont stack health, but stack more ad and try to outburst their opponents before they can get outbursted.

if darius would go back to just stacking health and not blowing up anyway, then that would be wonderful.

tempname12321348/2/2019, 9:14:27 AM1 votes

agree with everything but you frogot to add the ranged garbage being way to strong

AirKingNeo4/19/2019, 5:33:48 AM1 votes

Conqueror is a failure because Riven is overtunned? Is that the argument here?

Ranged champions still blow out average top laners and Grasp wins early trades.

ShadWooo4/18/2019, 1:25:37 AM1 votes

Just had very fun game. Enemy had conq Heca with ignite/tp at top, conq Rene with ignite flash mid, conq xin in jungle and conq draven in botlane with lulu.

Every single lane exploded at lvl 2 when they all-ined. First tower taken in mid pre 5 minutes. 3 and more level advantages for rene/heca.

League of bruisers for 2 years already. We need more players playing conq bruisers or busted tanks like Sion in middle. Maybe then riot notices something is not right...