Tanks have never felt worse

Jbels · 2017-05-07T16:08:31.669Z

Especially in the jungle. I know the mission statement of the tank update was to "Make tanks tankier while taking away damage from them", but where exactly is the tankier part? I don't feel any tankier? Like, Sejuani is the only tank that feels that way, and she's at the top of the banlist right now. Zac feels awful, and Maokai is only a bit higher on the game feel spectrum than him. I keep thinking to myself, I just need to get to this item and then I'll be a threat, until I realize I'm full build and still not a threat, still dying quickly, and not even being able to leave a mark in the health bars of any squishies because I do so little damage now. Thank GOD none of you got the idea in your heads that Sion should be updated too. Speaking of Sion, I was almost full build with him and decided to engage a teamfight. I went in with ult, hit the mid laner, and activated Stoneplate while I was at max health so I could apply my CC without dying. I got off one CC before I was half health WITH THE ITEM ACTIVE. What gives? Tankier? When? As for the jungle, Cinderhulk feels terrible. It's awful. It only helps you clear faster, and then for the rest of the time you don't even realize it's there. I would suggest giving it back it's 25% bonus health scaling up from it's current 15, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't coincide very well with your lowering of health on key defensive items

yeLnoc37May 7, 201721 votes

{quoted}

If tanks are worse, it could definitely be because their core items are numerically weaker. It could also be because they crutch heavily on Sunfire's damage effect (especially in pvp combat), and that effect undeniably took some hits.

As we continue to get more information, if tanks are too weak, we're in a good position to just do follow up buffs to tanks specifically. If tank items have less Health on them, for example, we can buff up tank Health ratios to compensate, and because we're buffing the tanks and not the items, we're at less risk of balance issues due to poaching.

Basically, it's very possible tanks are weaker than they should be at the moment, but I do think the ecosystem has been improved such that we can more reasonably adjust individual tanks.

Nerfing lee sin will fix 50% of your problems.

JbelsMay 7, 20178 votes

{quoted}

If tanks are worse, it could definitely be because their core items are numerically weaker. It could also be because they crutch heavily on Sunfire's damage effect (especially in pvp combat), and that effect undeniably took some hits.

As we continue to get more information, if tanks are too weak, we're in a good position to just do follow up buffs to tanks specifically. If tank items have less Health on them, for example, we can buff up tank Health ratios to compensate, and because we're buffing the tanks and not the items, we're at less risk of balance issues due to poaching.

Basically, it's very possible tanks are weaker than they should be at the moment, but I do think the ecosystem has been improved such that we can more reasonably adjust individual tanks.

What kind of things could be buffed though? Not base damages, since you want them to do less damage, right? Maybe base stats like armor or MR? Maybe base health? Thank you for replying, by the way. You have no idea how good it feels to know that the guys upstairs actually read these threads

RiotRiotRepertoirMay 7, 201734 votes

Tanks don't need to deal no damage. Imo, they need to not be high damage threats in the mid-late game on tank item builds.

Given that belief, we could do things like buff the base damage of their first max spells while reducing the damage of their second or third spell rankups, giving them more damage to fight their lane opponent early on, but not their late games.

If the feeling was that they just weren't durable enough in the late game to make up for their lack of damage, we could buff base stats or defensive scaling.

RalanrMay 7, 201722 votes

Would you be adjusting their mana costs at all? This probably isn't a big issue, but with the changes to item 1054 , many tanks probably won't be going item 2033 for a start and as such are having problem with mana sustain.

Is this a reasonable trade off though? Cause I've heard people going triple dorans just to make up for the mana sustain that they lost.

SpoofghoulMay 7, 201718 votes

You also need the mana for waveclearing now because sunfire is too shitty of an item to grab

its reduced radius originating from character model means very large champions have trouble dealing any damage at all , a multiple stacks cho gath can't even damage enemies with it for example though thats an extreme case

but still i cant hit the entire wave any more and it's not useful for fighting enemies either other items are more cost and slot efficient and so you grab 3 dorans ring for mana regen and a bit of ap to sort of make up for it this way you can spam forever because you get 150% regen and 12 mana per minion

SagaxwikiMay 8, 20173 votes

The reduced radius of item 3751 was easily the biggest stealth nerf in the update. Before the update you could reasonably expect to clear waves without having to use abilities as a tank once you bought it, but now tanks just can not compete with other solo laners at pushing waves without using their abilities on the waves.

AtheosisXMay 8, 201710 votes

Tanks were never "high damage threats". What are you even talking about?

JoseraphMay 8, 20174 votes

I'm not sure where you've been, but there have been cases. Poppy for a while could kill you with a rotation (Especially if you had a build like Sunfire, CInderhulk, Titanic, Iceborn and/or Deadmans).

Maokai had enough damage and cooldown to kill you with 2-3 rotations while sticking to you, under the safety of his ult.

Nautilus was practically a fighter with the damage from Q>E>AA>W>R>E.

Zac could kill if he landed his E, a few W's and all the bounces on his ult.

They weren't high damage threats like say a Syndra, but compared to how hard they were to kill, they were a force in their own right if they got into the backline.

RalanrMay 8, 201713 votes

Compared to everyone else, they killed a lot slower.

AhristocatsMay 7, 201713 votes

{quoted}

If tanks are worse, it could definitely be because their core items are numerically weaker.

wait for it

{quoted}

It could also be because they crutch heavily on Sunfire's damage effect (especially in pvp combat), and that effect undeniably took some hits.

Bingo! Tanks were nothing but glorified fighters, they were ALL without a single exception about dealing damage while being unkillable Their tankiness fell off in late game due to penetration

i have to say thank you for making them unable to 1v1 anyone in midgame when strong (cough poppy) but you didn't fixe anything about their late game tankiness

they're still feast or famin, they're tanky if they snowballed and managed to get their items before enemy back line penetration Black cleaver is still stupid despite being built in every situation

the only exception to this is Sejuani because the rework gave her a reliable tank steroid that does not fall off in late game as it scales and surpasses penetration

{quoted}

As we continue to get more information, if tanks are too weak, we're in a good position to just do follow up buffs to tanks specifically.

that's a hell ton of work then good luck for it friendo!

{quoted}

If tank items have less Health on them, for example, we can buff up tank Health ratios to compensate, and because we're buffing the tanks and not the items

except that losing some hp on nautilus and shen shield is far from being the problem at least in my personal experience as i saw both of those champions in my games

{quoted}

Basically, it's very possible tanks are weaker than they should be at the moment, but I do think the ecosystem has been improved such that we can more reasonably adjust individual tanks.

or maybe finally dealing with item 3153 item 3071 item 3036 you know

but that's none of my business as a janna main

RalanrMay 7, 201714 votes

Something about tanks being feast or famine really sounds like it shouldn't be a thing considering how their late game works.

AhristocatsMay 7, 201711 votes

but they are, i'm sorry to say the truth

feast if they snowballed and got their tank items before anti tank items

famin if they didn't and they won't do anything and die like paper

PB4UAMEMay 8, 20175 votes

Something is just seriously fucked when you have a whole (should be) necessary class that already KNOWS they will get absolutely fucked in a just a few seconds come late game, with no lategame itemization and nothing to do about it/no way to avoid it, while also having the lowest gold income of any class and one of the worst early games before they get health + resists. . . and then they are fucking feast or famine for the one part of the game they are actually supposed to be strong in, the mid game.

macromiteMay 7, 20178 votes

seriously though tanks lost about 70 absorption per item. that is about half an auto attacks worth of damage, per item. tanks weren't feelin so tanky before neither.

LongHair FoxMay 7, 20172 votes

Note that a lot of people are still building sunfire on maokai and nautilus so there is also an element of getting used to building new items first. It is likely better to rush gauntlet or another armor item since sunfire does not give much outside of waveclear now.

SpecterVonBarenMay 8, 20175 votes

In which case I question what the point of changing it was when the changes have made it a noob trap.

LongHair FoxMay 8, 20171 votes

It is good on champions that cannot waveclear but otherwise have decent dueling power. Shen is a good example of this, it just got changed to not be the item everyone gets because it does everything that anyone wants.

SpecterVonBarenMay 8, 20175 votes

So now its an item no one wants. Bruisers don't want it because it doesn't deal good champion damage and tanks don't want it because by the time they finish it teamfights will start up and so wave clear has less value since the rest of their team will have better wave clear. So most will just switch to frozen fist which still has teamfight benefits while giving some wavelet while Sunfire is just built on Shen and Yorick.

macromiteMay 7, 201710 votes

core items are numerically weaker

http://i.imgur.com/yNlQWRM.jpg

MelledoneusMay 7, 20178 votes

Can we just see a stat update of all the tanks across the board? Higher base HP would go a long way. Especially for tanks like Shen, who have lower base stats than people who are supposed to be squishy like Zed.

LankPantsMay 7, 20175 votes

If tanks are worse, it could definitely be because their core items are numerically weaker. It could also be because they crutch heavily on Sunfire's damage effect (especially in pvp combat), and that effect undeniably took some hits.

The problem here is that Sunfire is pure garbage. It's just not a good enough item to ever justify building. There is never a reason to go Sunfire over Deadman's Plate.

As we continue to get more information, if tanks are too weak, we're in a good position to just do follow up buffs to tanks specifically. If tank items have less Health on them, for example, we can buff up tank Health ratios to compensate, and because we're buffing the tanks and not the items, we're at less risk of balance issues due to poaching.

Terrible idea, you're just going to end up with tanks building Titanic Hydra and Triforce. Why do you think tanks won't just poach other classes items when you over buff them and make their itemisation trash?

You're also looking at making all tanks supports as well. Why bother with expensive items when you can just go bot, get no gold and be a tank anyway.

I get the problem you have is things like Tank Fizz and Tank Ekko, but your "solution" just causes more problems. A better solution would be to take Fizz's AD/lv and cripple it, take it from 3 to 1 so he can't buy Triforce, add some bonus damage on hit to his passive if he needs it to farm and trade.

RacoonHunterMay 8, 20173 votes

Health isn't the problem.. you add health back to items that will only make Bork even more of a must buy for every marksman than it already is. Hell, it's already the first item the top adcs are rushing in order to even survive to get their crit items..

SirFlameOfDeathMay 8, 20173 votes

Well, the biggest thing riot nerfed way too much was Zac. His new ult specifically, it can yield bigger rewards, but now it makes his kit even clunkier and more predictible, you have to land his E, which basically flashed the opponent that it is coming. (still easily usable and great the E rocks.) Then his R used to work really well, because it gave multipl blobs on multi hit, then it disrupted from the middle pushing some back and some forward. The new way that he ult works makes his E jump into the enemy and if you miss it his ult is nearly useless unless you want it to have 1/100 th of its old effect and his q is great in theory, but you also made it clunkier, you wanted all his moves to have massive amounts of counter play, but you just added too much counter play, to where Zac is hit or miss, and using his moves is a huge gamble. Going in has to be guarinteed and someone else has to lock them down first, zac can't really engage and his ult can't disengage, just bring back his old ult for the love of jeez, because thats why his win-rate went down so much to 37 percent. I looked at the rework originally and I was like they ruined him, but if you wanna keep his new ult it needs like a 0 cast time to be close to as useful, because the old ult bounced multiple times and each was a knock-up if the enemy was not hit yet. This made it a powerful peeling tool and engaging tool. Now Zac can only engage and he cannot do that very well, because people are almost always out of the fight by that time unless he lands his e first in which case it is likely flashed which is good I guess, but makes you look silly. Overall his ult even with a 0 second time on it would be close to the same usefulness as his old ult. Personally, I think his ult needs reverting, and if you want you can keep his old q or revert it too, but his ult is a massive downgrade. I loved Zac for his old ult utility and play making his new ult just does one thing, and I feel like his old ult was what gave zac the feel he had and made him truly who he was his new ult feels like a knock-off of his fromer self. The bouncing multiple times sending blobs everywhere and his chaotic unstable nature. Flash push towards your team was awesome, but r disengage was also amazing especially with the speed boost you could engage or save, but now you can dive balls deep into the enemy team, with weaker stats, less damage and be almost guarenteed to fail what you are doing with giant windup times. Just please Fix his ult all I ask I really loved Zac as a champion

Tanks have never felt worse

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