@RiotRepetoir what's happening to Zed on pbe?

Laceration·Mar 15, 2018·27 votes·6,673 views

There's so many changes happening to zed on pbe and i'm hesitant about making another zed post since I don't want you guys to think the zed community is a bunch of whiny b es, however we want to know what's the goal with these changes?

These changes to me look like an overall nerf until level 16. I don't think it makes sense to be removing base damage+AD scaling on Q. Can zed just receive simple +numbers on his kit like Kayn or talon instead of playing around with a mechanic that was fine and lowering damage?

Could you please reply to this post with a clear answer as to what do you want Zed's strengths to be and are these changes final?

You said this, but it feels like you guys are doing the opposite.

35 Comments

DoozkuMar 16, 201813 votes

Pretty sure every direct change to Zed since like season 5 has ended being a nerf to him, whether it was intended or not, including the rework he got in the Assassin update which was basically just a sneaky way to nerf him while disguising it as a new mechanic.

ArakadiaMar 16, 20184 votes

The intent of the Assassin Update for him was to make him less of a generally always good assassin. (Generally good against all comps not all metas or patches). By making him weaker against some he can be stronger against others.

AhristocatsMar 16, 20187 votes

the intent was to make zed less snowballing in a shitty way, because his bonus AD depended on enemies rather than zed buying AD himself, so if zed was destroying them he couldn't get even more ad, and the enemies would be behind giving him less ad

there is nothing more worse of a mechanic than having your game depending on how the enemy adc is doing

ArakadiaMar 16, 20186 votes

I disagree. Tying a little bit of that power away helps make him less extreme.

If Zed is absolutely destroying, maybe he doesn't need some free AD from doing nothing at all. If he isn't doing so hot however, but he manages to kill their ADC, well that big chunk of bonus AD is going to help me feel less shitty from behind.

The old passive completely encouraged a snowbally playstyle. If he's doing well, he stomps harder because of the % increase, and if he's doing bad the passive hardly helped him at all.

there is nothing more worse of a mechanic than having your game depending on how the enemy adc is doing

See it really isn't his whole game. The match isn't decided by this. The amount of AD you get can be significant but its not even close to the amount of impact landing an ability or not is.

Also right here Riot Statikk says that he was getting changes for being a generalist.

Although an already solid part of the roster, Zed can be an overly generalist choice in the Assassin space due to his relatively safe early game and his effective Assassination tools. Outside of some tuning adjustments, we’re looking for some interesting ways to make Zed think more carefully about the opposing team composition and in particular who he chooses to Death Mark throughout the game.

ShåwnMar 16, 201811 votes

I think a really good suggestion, which I think people who play as zed and people who play against zed will appreciate, to address these issues is to look at Zed's AD reap mechanic which was introduced in the assassin rework as a replacement for his flat bonus which used to exist on his W. This mini rework imo was a pretty big failure and makes the champion very volatile with big AD reaps vs certain teamcomps and absolute garbage AD reaps vs comps that have no AD stackers. This massive inconsistency makes zed appear like hes doing alot of dmg some games and no damage in other games. You could change his "reap" to be 10% of his own AD and 10% of his opponents AD as a nice balance halfway point. It would be a buff and it would also not affect his lane as much.

kargishMar 16, 20182 votes

Wait a minute 10% of his own AD? Wouldn't that in theory allow him to get infinite AD?

Automated RivenMar 16, 20181 votes

No, the deminishing returns would drop it from happening. But it would be pretty broken IMHO.

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 16, 201811 votes

There are three changes on the PBE:

His ult damage is up at later ranks
Multiple shurikens - no longer suffer a damage penalty on hits beyond the first
Individual shurikens - deal 50% damage to secondary targets hits rather than 60%

I added the last line (the nerf line) as a response to playtest feedback that first two lines would power him up too considerably (even considering Duskblade changes). I'd love it if that line wasn't necessary. That's why it wasn't there to begin with. If it looks like Zed actually drops in power, we can just adjust/revert that line. I've said this elsewhere, but I don't expect all these Duskblade comp changes to be perfectly power neutral across ~10 champions on the first shot. We're taking what I think is a reasonable shot based on player and playtest feedback, and if we miss by a bit, we'll have to correct course.

AhristocatsMar 16, 201810 votes

So the Duskblade change+champions changes aim for a power neutral?

Then can I ask you if there is anything planned to make assassins playable once again in high elo? especially talon and zed they can't lane against competent players until lvl 6, then their teamfight is surpassed by mages and their damage actually fall off unlike mages

iPooUnicornsMar 16, 20184 votes

Is this from their lack of access to late game penetration or shields negating their burst?

AhristocatsMar 16, 201812 votes

lack of late game penetration You can have like 40 lethality, but adcs have a base armor of 80 nearly in late game (assuming they don't build 30 armor from tabi) black cleaver exists but you need to stack it and therefore isn't good to burst

to be fair i don't mind them being weak in late game but why should they be destroyed by mages because they're melees against rangeds and be worse in teamfight on top of this due to the lack of utility

if you take my last 50 games, you're going to see like 2 zed and 1 talon at best, i don't get when riot will take action

iPooUnicornsMar 16, 20187 votes

Not sure who downvoted you, but it makes sense.

Lethality just seems weak overall, it doesn't same to synergize well last whisper items. Do you think Talon might start opting for a tiamat/hydra when the Duskblade nerfs go through?

AhristocatsMar 16, 20184 votes

don't think so, talon is too delayed to be able to use the active of hydra

abdelhamid9Mar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEjwNhEF,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-16T18:39:20.416+0000)

lack of late game penetration You can have like 40 lethality, but adcs have a base armor of 80 nearly in late game (assuming they don't build 30 armor from tabi) black cleaver exists but you need to stack it and therefore isn't good to burst

to be fair i don't mind them being weak in late game but why should they be destroyed by mages because they're melees against rangeds and be worse in teamfight on top of this due to the lack of utility

if you take my last 50 games, you're going to see like 2 zed and 1 talon at best, i don't get when riot will take action

Because the comunity only cares about mages, when orianna was broken as fuck no one said anyhing in here, if an assassin had vhat layrate+winrate all you would see is complains

Tomoe GozenMar 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEjwNhEF,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-03-16T18:26:58.992+0000)

So the Duskblade change+champions changes aim for a power neutral?

Then can I ask you if there is anything planned to make assassins playable once again in high elo? especially talon and zed they can't lane against competent players until lvl 6, then their teamfight is surpassed by mages and their damage actually fall off unlike mages

Talon has received buffs as well to his early game power, i believe (something about his level 11, before or after, i don't remember). Assassins are playable but they all too much rely on the Duskblade to power their burst. Zed in particular has less problems dealing with people, even when it comes to actual tanks from my point of view.

AnataBakkaMar 16, 20181 votes

could you fix zed's q description? After 7.22 when Q got buffed the secondary damage increased in damage too (i'm 99% sure) but in the ability's description it didn't

this has no gameplay consequences but since i saw you say "60%" it made me wonder, and then i tested it. I told you because there's a 1% chance of having it fixed if i report it on bug reports

LacerationMar 16, 20186 votes

Hey Repertoir,

Just wondering how exactly would he get powered up too hard when even if you do the math he's nerfed until 16. Also, nerfing his secondary Q damage is a direct nerf to his lanephase+teamfight harder than anything else.

btw, a lot of zed players are just getting sick and tired of getting nerfed over and over for years and this is pretty fucked up if it happens again when zed is the worst he's ever been

thanks for taking time to reply, we really appreciate it.

Break It DownMar 17, 20184 votes

This makes zed's laning even weaker, which is the problem, makes ne sense to do this, i've got 3mil mastery on this champ, and im telling u 8.6 he'll be worse than 8.5 , ask anyone who mains zed they'll tell you.

oXtEBernieMar 17, 20182 votes

@RiotRepertoir , All you guys have to do , to make Zed actual champion Q: Do not touch live at as live W: lvls 1/2/3/4/5 CD: 18,16,14,12,10 E: +100 Base AD( its a melee spell unless u get close to a mage u wont hit them) R:Same, Remove Reaping AD, Give instead Refunds 25/50/75 energy whenever person dies from or under the effect of death mark. Passive: " Master of shadows" As zed's level strenghten, he gains 5/10/15/20/25% ad at lvls 1/7/11/16 and his basic attacks do 8% of max hp under 50%.

FoxstepMar 17, 20183 votes

I wish you guys would contact LL stylish, a well known high elo zed one trick. He’s a challenger player who used to be rank 13, also considered as best zed world.

Maybe you can get some inspirations off of that cause right now the “buffs” don’t really seem to play out as such.

Krys StarMar 17, 20181 votes

Because Zed is totally in a bad spot, with or without Duskblade, that he needs the buffs to do his job, which he already does an exceptional job of. While you're at it, buff your other favorites: Yasuo and Thresh.

341123545652Mar 16, 201810 votes

FYI everyone there is actually a massive typo on surrender at 20 pbe changes for zed. His ult damage at rank 1 is NOT 20% on live, its 25% on live, so his ult damage at rank 1 is NOT being buffed. They really should fix that typo asap its gonna make people think zed's ult damage at rank 1 is being buffed.

The corrected version without the typo is:

25%/35%/45% --> 25%/40%/55%

FaustavianMar 16, 20185 votes

It looks like they're trying to reward hitting more than one shuriken once you go all in, increasing his skill cap a bit. Honestly I like this because it rewards Zed players who know how to go all-in and now just throwing out Q's in lane until they get low enough they can fuck everything up and still get a kill.

Daddy Tie Me UpMar 16, 20184 votes

I think that zed should be nerfed.

Jackom1Mar 16, 20184 votes

brivenes?

VelirathMar 16, 20182 votes

Base damage increase is the best way to make zed viable again. Due to his piss-poor base damages were locked into playing lethality only which in itself is bad, because everyone builds tabis nowadays. Additionally armor is so easy to come by, tanks are strong, shields are everywhere, targets are near impossible to assassinate. Going into a trade with a 1k gold lead I expect to decimate my opponetnt, not trade even cause he rushed tabis and seekers.

Been playing zed for quite some time and hes the weakest he has ever been. He needs some serious buffs to become at least semi viable.

NevrankroatonMar 16, 20182 votes

Zed gained a SIGNIFICANT buff with the Q change.

For people who doesn't know, before when Zed throw two shuriken (or three) at the ennemy with his shadows, the second shuriken would deal 75% of the damage. Now, there is no longer this damage restriction. To give you just an idea, let's just do some SUPER basic math with just the base dmg (no armor, no AD ratio, etc).

So if your shuriken would deal 80 dmg at lvl 1, two shuriken would be 80 + (80*0,75) = 140. Now, it is 80 + 80 = 160.

Riot nerfed the damage put on the secondaries target with one shuriken because of this. Before, a secondary target would take 45 base damage, so with two shuriken 45 + (45*0,7) = 79. Now, the secondary target take 40 base damage, so with two shuriken 40 + 40 = 80. (Also, for the one wondering about the AD ratio change, it is a buff with two shuriken, it is slightly lower with one).

Overall, it is a very strong change and it become MASSIVE with three shuriken. I am super glad for Zed mains, there is a lot to do with this and it reward agressive play with W/Q.

I may afkMar 16, 20182 votes

Zed cannot be outright buffed like other assassins. His banrate is consistently in the top 2-3 most banned champions regardless of whether he is strong or not. If Riot outright buffs him the same way they buffed Talon, Shaco, Kayn etc... his banrate would skyrocket and he would just be permabanned every game anyways regardless.

IdveYsUfSKMar 16, 20182 votes

Late game penetration is easily available through last whisper. Zed should not be buffed, he needs to be weak in laning phase so he does not auto win lane and snowball the game. Zed has already become very easy to play with the introduction of the broken duskblade. Zed never had problems even before duskblade existed. The damage amp with duskblade(even nerfed) and his ult makes him pump out way too much secured damage compared to the other assassins. He can do near instant positioning 3 times and waste lots of enemies time in a teamfight, not to mention the instant aoe burst most assassins lack. This makes him pretty much the go to assassin.

The real problem with zed now is people are better and know how to do fast unloading to destroy zed, also with the crazy damage powercreep on other champs. This makes it harder to make ballsy/clean plays without getting punished to snowball a lead compared to last time.

Eye Of TerrorMar 16, 20182 votes

Maybe you should revert that ult update which gives Zed free get out of jail card if pressed again?

Btw, who's the idiot behind that change?

SociaI JusticeMar 16, 20181 votes

the point is that you will have to hit shurikens to kill people, hopefully, i know this seems unacceptable to zed players but look at the bright side, if you do hit em you do more damage now.

An DraoiMar 16, 20181 votes

It's lowering the damage from a single shuriken but increasing the net damage from multiple shurikens. Rewards skills expression from using multiple shadows at once to land multiple shurikens vs blindly harassing with shurikens. Is it healthy? idk

HeyBigGuyHeyBuddMar 17, 20181 votes

Zeds getting a nerf because of electrocute

Evil YasuoMar 17, 20181 votes

If I can give some input on this as someone who plays some fair Zed. I think reverting his passive thing to scale off of his own damage again instead of trying to collect it through ult finishing blows. ALSO, the big one.. if his ult trigger damage ignored shielding.

FéliXXXMar 18, 20181 votes

can you please take the old w bonus ad back? :D