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So have we finally reached that point? Sona is a better AP mid now then a support?

RedCyclone·Oct 17, 2015·69 votes·7,526 views

I mean it removes a bunch of her weaknesses when she goes into mid, It may make new problems arise such as waveclear but it allows her strengths to shine too, much better then they do in botlane And when she does go support anyway, she still needs ridiculous amounts of AP to perform well

Sadly I was hoping that I would make this thread when a few pro players started to take her mid and do well with her, but alas, it's just because support Sona sucks so hard that it's not hard to best it http://img15.deviantart.net/f0c5/i/2013/296/d/4/lol___deathcap_sona_by_cubehero-d6rllrq.jpg

With midlane Sona you don't have to deal with the fact that one of the enemy laners is a brick wall gunning to pin your ass down with cc for 3 seconds as you go from 100% hp to 0 You can take advantage that the game demands nothing but AP to be in your build, why does an intended support champion have such low base values on her spells anyway? Her bullying presence returns in midlane where she can chunk the enemy for massive damage, coupled with the fact you are probably going to get a blue buff you can keep that damage going and going nonstop She is a great roamer if she can manage to get her wave pushed in She can sustain herself, again much improved by blue buff, AP mids alone will normally not have the capacity to 100% a Sona who knows what she is doing With enough AP and her 2 key items (Lich and Luden) she becomes a monster who can 100% squishes

Her midlane is also approximately 385729567385 times more fun then playing her full support (legit scientifically proven), she isn't an amazing midlaner but I think it's better then her being placed in bot doing nothing but cheering her team on,** so that got me thinking, what if Riot actually balanced her for midlane**? considering how much they hate her doing damage in botlane they will always force her into a corner of mediocrity, while in mid she can have all her strengths flourish with little complaint on her damage because that's what midlaners do, she could easily be inline with utility mids like Orianna

140 Comments

GigahappytownOct 17, 201540 votes

Sona can't go bot because then the enemy just picks blitz/naut/thresh and gets a free win xd

DrNovaOct 17, 201530 votes

That means MORE incoming nerfs, because riot doesn't like sups being viable elsewhere (despite claiming to not enforce the meta).

RedCycloneOct 17, 20155 votes

At this point, I would not put it past them to do this

ChaosThiefOct 17, 201521 votes

Lulu ?

JingerbeardmanOct 18, 20153 votes

they have tried time and again to shove her back into bot... fact is that her kit is just to versatile to the point that unless you gut all its damage, which would ruin her, she will always be viable elsewhere in some way.

chipndip1Oct 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

they have tried time and again to shove her back into bot... fact is that her kit is just to versatile to the point that unless you gut all its damage, which would ruin her, she will always be viable elsewhere in some way.

Given how Lulu is a better top and mid than she is a support, is that really that bad?

I mean, I never win when Lulu supports me, but I can have hope if it's Lulu mid/top lane.

Troll for TrumpOct 18, 20151 votes

Alistar Jg was a thing Karma mid Galio I think he was INTENDED as a support, at one point a long time ago.. not sure Thresh : This guy could LITERALLY work anywhere when he first came out TahmKench : Jg, Sp, Top Soraka : COuld go mid prerework Zilean :Could go mid at some point

Here's what I don't get. Why can any other champ go support, but any support can't go anywhere else?

BattleBalladeerOct 19, 20151 votes

Yeah that is odd. Practically any tank can go support (Support Sion is really neat, Galio is a little awkward but definitely viable [send him in with kalista]). Karma still works Mid and has decent damage iirc. The most versatile supports are actually toplaners who happen to work as supports as well.

MrWasjigOct 17, 201511 votes

(despite claiming to not enforce the meta)

Thing is, we all know that's bullshit. Just look at the Lee Sin buff prior to Worlds.

Duke AnaxOct 17, 201515 votes

That's a missunderstanding a lot of LoL players have. Support champions and botlane supports are NOT he same thing.

Support champions are simply good at helping teammates, doesn't necessariliy mean they are good at supporting an ADC. Teamfight support is quite a bit different from lane support.

OksanaandjoyOct 18, 20151 votes

It would be great to see some examples of what you mean by this...

A5W9VPIhgQOct 18, 20151 votes

lux, morg mid and ori are support champions, yes they have damage, but if your team is behind, they are behind. they have little chance to solo carry but are great in utility and team fights.

OksanaandjoyOct 19, 20151 votes

Cheers for that, I see what you mean now. So if your team is picking a support oriented mid, would you choose a more aggressive support to make up the difference?

iamleburkOct 19, 20151 votes

No, you would pick a more late game oriented ADC and/or a high damage top lane (like Fiora). Because two supports means less damage but almost impossible to get to the backline. The botlane support matters least in that comp, you can make anything work. Although the support mids i was thinking were more Lulu and Ori, i guess Lux has enough damage by herself... but then she needs to be protected as much as the ADC.

Professor WardOct 17, 201510 votes

Horrible cs/waveclear and hp so low that if you win mid lane you wouldve won easier with another champ(skill matchup)

sonas hp is far too low to take seriously midlane with her kit

RedCycloneOct 17, 20154 votes

Lux has less hp Zyra too there are many midlaners with Sona tier health

I will say her waveclear is ass, but good csing skills can make up for that

Aeolian MelodiesOct 17, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Lux has less hp Zyra too there are many midlaners with Sona tier health

I will say her waveclear is ass, but good csing skills can make up for that

Neither Zyra nor Lux are picked competitively.

Both Zyra and Lux have high range, non-ultimate immobilizes, and safe AoE waveclear. Sona has none of those traits.

RedCycloneOct 17, 20152 votes

I never said that Sona was an amazing midlaner, only simply that she is better in mid then she is a support

Maybe if Riot stopped contradicting themselves on Sonas whole design and just said "well, lets just make her a midlaner" she could be changed to suit midlane more" (with ease actually) and stopped forcing her to be a under tuned support who plays with less activity then watching paint dry.

Here a spitball midlane change for Sona Hymn of Valor - If both bolts hit a target within 100 range of each other, it resonates a AoE damage effect BOOM hire me

chipndip1Oct 17, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEHrYTGA,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-10-17T18:06:58.458+0000)

Neither Zyra nor Lux are picked competitively.

Both Zyra and Lux have high range, non-ultimate immobilizes, and safe AoE waveclear. Sona has none of those traits.

You know, I brought that up and said "Why don't we make E snare instead of Rylai's someone? It'd make her a ton more viable". Everyone thought I was crazy.

manbearswineOct 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You know, I brought that up and said "Why don't we make E snare instead of Rylai's someone? It'd make her a ton more viable". Everyone thought I was crazy.

It requires her to auto,and that's a big problem.

To fit in the current meta,sona needs more safety,I would be fine with giving her a snare somewhere(though most likely some tradeoffs will need to be made),but it should be in a place where it will be preferably more effective defensively than offensively(cause sona needs more safety,that way most of that buff will go into that),forcing her to auto for it just won't work.

chipndip1Oct 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It requires her to auto,and that's a big problem.

To fit in the current meta,sona needs more safety,I would be fine with giving her a snare somewhere(though most likely some tradeoffs will need to be made),but it should be in a place where it will be preferably more effective defensively than offensively(cause sona needs more safety,that way most of that buff will go into that),forcing her to auto for it just won't work.

1: Annie seems to be just fine in the game with what's basically an auto-attack STUN, let alone a snare.

2: There's nothing else in her kit to put a snare on. To the VERY least, it'd allow her to stop one person from running her the hell over for a bit or allow for proper follow-ups instead of me having to Flash + Powerchord Q since there's no way in hell I'd be able to coordinate giving the kill to my adc instead since I can't hold someone still like nearly every other support in the game can. Sure, you can mention that Braum can't stun without 3 more autos, but his Q's slow is much stronger than Sona's Powerchord E slow.

3: Sona doesn't need to trade power right now. Right now she's the least viable support that isn't Zyra gimped Zilean or about to be reworked Taric . She needs buffs, not trades, and a good way to start is to bring her back to the times. Every viable support option has hard cc outside of ults. If Sona doesn't have that in some fashion, she WILL NOT be viable. Bet me and quote me on it. I'm that confident.

manbearswineOct 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

1: seems to be just fine in the game with what's basically an auto-attack STUN, let alone a snare.

The thing is annies entire identity is offensive,she has no auras,no utility,no mobility,not really tanky either(e doesn't do much for most of the game),also it's instant,part of my problem with sona having to auto is that autoing takes time,if annie is being chased she can turn around and w,sona having to auto will doom her. Even so(and correct me if I'm wrong) I think annie is only ran with kalista now,as kalista can make her safer than she usually is.

2: There's nothing else in her kit to put a snare on. To the VERY least, it'd allow her to stop one person from running her the hell over for a bit or allow for proper follow-ups instead of me having to Flash + Powerchord Q since there's no way in hell I'd be able to coordinate giving the kill to my adc instead since I can't hold someone still like nearly every other support in the game can. Sure, you can mention that Braum can't stun without 3 more autos, but his Q's slow is much stronger than Sona's Powerchord E slow.

You can put a minor knockback on her e(say 100 range knockback in a 350 radius from sona upon e activation),for example.

3: Sona doesn't need to trade power right now. Right now she's the least viable support that isn't

The issue is I'd argue zyra needs to trade power as well. Look,riot has an issue with their winrate,it's insanely stupid,but they have no intention to change that attitude,should try and isolate what is making her winrate high but doesn't work well against skilled players,nerf that,and help them both against people who understand how they work.

gimped

I don't know,I've been hearing from certain people that he is just underrated and boring,but not weak.

She needs buffs, not trades, and a good way to start is to bring her back to the times. Every viable support option has hard cc outside of ults. If Sona doesn't have that in some fashion, she WILL NOT be viable. Bet me and quote me on it. I'm that confident.

The problem is that meta supports have two things which obviously stand out: 1)very safe laning. 2)good roam potential.

The first one being more important than the second. Granted,generally for safe laning you need some strong combination(look at how safe meta supports are) of mobility/tankiness/disengage,forcing sona to auto is a problem,it also means that a large part of the buff will be an offensive one,and I would prefer as much as possible to be aimed at her problems.

DJ Hatsune MikuOct 17, 20156 votes

She used to be a pretty decent mid, however with the work they did to her and her gutted ratios it's not that good imo. She can't burst like she used to, her poke isn't as safe or consistent, she's just kinda a fun pick I wouldn't recommend taking seriously.

RedCycloneOct 17, 20151 votes

Id say you can technically swing it into being just as good as it was pre rework

If only they did not rape the shit of her staccato powerchord

Aeolian MelodiesOct 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Id say you can technically swing it into being just as good as it was pre rework

If only they did not rape the shit of her staccato powerchord

Q-empowered Staccato is the same as old Staccato, but yes if you hold onto Staccato and let the buff fades, it kinda sucks.

RedCycloneOct 17, 20156 votes

The Q empowerment was supposed to be a compromise to the fact the bolts on her Q got nerfed in damage and ratio hard Nothing made up for the gutting of staccato

Aeolian MelodiesOct 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The Q empowerment was supposed to be a compromise to the fact the bolts on her Q got nerfed in damage and ratio hard Nothing made up for the gutting of staccato

They nerfed Staccato so that it didn't become overbearing with Q empowerment.

Realistically they could've made Power Chord not spend the buff so that "stand alone" Staccato packs a punch and empowered Staccato isn't ridiculous if that's what the problem was.

RedCycloneOct 17, 20152 votes

Well whatever way you swing it, 2 things got nerfed and only 1 thing got compensated for it

Be it the original Q damage or Staccato Sona needs something silly like 700AP to break even with pre-rework Sona damage

Pika310Oct 17, 20154 votes

You're ignoring the fact that she used to gain bonus AD and AP from Hymn's aura.

There was ZERO compensation for nerfing Staccato.

StaconaOct 17, 20156 votes

AP Sona, no - AP Nami is good however (in terms of mid)

junglerboy16Oct 17, 20155 votes

She has been for a long time actually...

I can't be the only person who ships Sona X item 3100 , can I?

AtukoOct 17, 20155 votes

Sona has to stay a support, having her be a mid-laner and expecting her to be some kind of carry would be quite underwhelming.

We just need to bring the auras back, and modernize them so they fit today's standards.

MEMEME670Oct 17, 20154 votes

Sona support is quite strong right now.

But she requires very good positioning to play and a lot of her power is semi-invisible (Which support mains should be used to anyway), so she doesn't feel as powerful as she is.

But she's powerful. Her bases aren't low considering the power of the auras and how they are autotargetted.

And nothing about her forces you to build only ap.

AbyssionKnightOct 17, 20154 votes

She's so far from what she used to be she's not just a shadow of her former self, but a shadow of her former self's shadow.

I'm glad you think she's strong right now, though in reality there's really no reason to pick her right now, beyond her ult (and even then Nami is arguably better).

MEMEME670Oct 18, 20152 votes

Nami's ult is MUCH worse than Sona's. It's infinitely easier to dodge, and doesn't cc as long. It has some benefits, but Sona's ult is definitely stronger.

And yeah, she's weaker than her former self, because the way her old auras worked in order to feel useful she had to be op. Being balanced isn't a bad thing.

You pick Sona for lane dominance and her ult. And that's more than enough reason.

Only Play DariusOct 17, 20155 votes

She's not powerful, at least not in her current state. Her mana consumption is insane yet her passive and low bases require her to spam abilities. She has no hard cc pre-6 and as such is helpless in early ganks. Let's not even talk about her E. Her scalings aren't as good as they should be for how low her numbers are, she doesn't build AP because of synergy, she builds AP because she has to (and this forced build path means she's the only support champion who ends up bursting down squishies if she gets ahead and introduces even more balance problems). And as for having the best poke in the game? That's stops working once you get to an elo where people are smart enough to focus Sona instead of the ADC because Sona is as durable as a cannon minion.

The only time Sona can be considered "powerful" is when she is tagging at least 4 people with her auras, and good luck not only staying alive but keeping 4 people within 400 range of you for an extended period of time in the League of Mobility. The Sona rework had the right idea and helped shave off the invisible power, but repeated nerfs post-rework just make her unsatisfying to play regardless of her winrate. The exception is her ult, which is powerful and game changing but being a crescendo bot doesn't make for satisfying play.

Rumor has it Riot regrets making Sona, and honestly I can kind of see why. She's got everything a support player could want, is based entirely around auras (which Riot claims are hard to balance), all while being incredibly easy to play. But it's still no excuse for leaving her in the state she is. Especially when you consider that unlike other "mistake" champions like Poppy Vladimir Yorick, she actually got a full rework recently, which was their chance to solve any core problems she had.

Right now she's good for learning support but that's it, Riot punished her for doing a little bit of everything (hi Thresh) by making her utter shit at anything.

bradOct 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEHrYTGA,comment-id=000e0001,timestamp=2015-10-17T22:18:19.899+0000)

She's not powerful, at least not in her current state.

https://gyazo.com/a76636f116818a9b9ca49054b305b6db

xdxd plz buff sona shes so weak xdXDXD

chipndip1Oct 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi lm Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEHrYTGA,comment-id=000e00010000,timestamp=2015-10-18T04:30:12.478+0000)

https://gyazo.com/a76636f116818a9b9ca49054b305b6db

xdxd plz buff sona shes so weak xdXDXD

Put that at Plat+, where Riot themselves said they base most of their balancing decisions. Now her play rate is almost less than 3%. Tada?

bradOct 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Put that at Plat+, where Riot themselves said they base most of their balancing decisions. Now her play rate is almost less than 3%. Tada?

play rate has nothing to do with what im saying

chipndip1Oct 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi lm Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEHrYTGA,comment-id=000e0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-18T07:38:51.176+0000)

play rate has nothing to do with what im saying

You think she's good because her win rate isn't negative. Win rate doesn't necessarily mean a champ is good. Miss Fortune has been in a similar spot as Sona even up to this point. No one thinks MF is "fine". If you're play rate is low, your win rate can be inflated by relatively few character specialists playing against people that lack match-up knowledge. That's what's happening right now.

StephenizgodOct 17, 20153 votes

INCOMING SONA NERFS! maybe we can get like 100 nerfs in half the patches as last time!!! Im excited.

Pika310Oct 20, 20151 votes

Yay for setting new records! <3

NemeBroOct 18, 20152 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona

Nothing says a champion is weak like a 52% win rate on people who have literally just started playing her.

RedCycloneOct 18, 20152 votes

Yeah, no shit, she is braindead to play support and excels against players who don't know how to handle her Notice how the more games she plays she loses more Notice how the higher rank you go, the less you see Sona played and winning

Totes not connected

NemeBroOct 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no shit, she is braindead to play support and excels against players who don't know how to handle her Notice how the more games she plays she loses more Notice how the higher rank you go, the less you see Sona played and winning

Totes not connected

There's only a drop-off at the very end, which is likely an anomaly due to the low sample size.

Sona has a positive win rate in Plat and Diamond in the past seven days. In the past month, said win rates were higher, and she even was played in Master tier, with a win ratio of over sixty percent (though it was only on 22 games.

So it seems Sona wins games just fine. She just isn't played often. Is that your problem?

RedCycloneOct 18, 20153 votes

Oh cool, Sona is a free win for everyone, thanks for opening my eyes, quickl everyone get this information to Worlds RIGHT NOW so she becomes pick or ban tier

No, there is a small dedicated Sona playerbase who likes to play Sona, she also has a small playrate, much like other low playrate champions she has a slightly bloated winrate, because players who enjoy Sona will keep picking them and they are not artifically getting their winrate tanked because everyone plays them (much likes Thresh's protection from nerfs, what is bullshit)

It's literally 51% average now, she used to get 54 and no one complained, every nerf she received never even effected her winrates, it's declined over time as supports around her get buffed and she slowly slips out of favor more and more

Can you stop with the winrate argument, i'm sick of repeating myself

NemeBroOct 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh cool, Sona is a free win for everyone, thanks for opening my eyes, quickl everyone get this information to Worlds RIGHT NOW so she becomes pick or ban tier

LCS isn't necessarily equivalent to solo Q. Riven and Blitzcrank are two examples of champs that are very good in Solo Q, but not particularly good in professional play.

No, there is a small dedicated Sona playerbase who likes to play Sona, she also has a small playrate, much like other low playrate champions she has a slightly bloated winrate, because players who enjoy Sona will keep picking them and they are not artifically getting their winrate tanked because everyone plays them (much likes Thresh's protection from nerfs, what is bullshit)

I'm sure the Sona players with 1-5 games are super dedicated Sona mains with a wealth of skill at using Sona, compared to the Thresh mains who can barely scrape by with 51.98% win rate.

Oh, and did you know that Thresh players, on average, have more experience with their champion than Sona players do with theirs?

Thresh is very good for pro play, but is merely okay in Solo Q, despite his huge popularity. Is it Sona's lack of pro play that bothers you?

It's literally 51% average now, she used to get 54 and no one complained, every nerf she received never even effected her winrates, it's declined over time as supports around her get buffed and she slowly slips out of favor more and more

Can you stop with the winrate argument, i'm sick of repeating myself

I suppose I could, but you haven't really given me a good reason to drop it.

This reminds me of when the poor abused Lux mains cried for buffs to their 52% win rate champion, and Riot actually proceeded to listen, making Lux one of, if not the strongest mid laner in the game in Solo Q.

chipndip1Oct 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona

Nothing says a champion is weak like a 52% win rate on people who have literally just started playing her.

Or her 0% ban rate + almost less than 3% play rate. o.o

Malix FarwinOct 17, 20151 votes

Once LCS does it, people will realize it then it will get "lulu'ed".

Aeolian MelodiesOct 17, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vEHrYTGA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-10-17T16:57:20.899+0000)

Once LCS does it, people will realize it then it will get "lulu'ed".

You mean so popular that no one plays her in her intended lane anymore?

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